Does Chipper Jones get enough credit?

1948_Swell_Robinson

Lifetime WAR of 85.3 in 10,614 plate appearances.

Lifetime .303/.401/.529 for a .930 OPS and a 141 OPS+

Run Expectancy of 681. For reference Mike Schmidt had 624 and George Brett had 539.
Win Probability Added of 60.3. For reference Mike Schmidt had 55.5 and George Brett had 52.4.

Schmidt 10,062 plate appearances with .908 OPS and a 148 OPS+
Brett 11,625 plate appearances with an .857 OPS and 135 OPS+

Different eras than Schmidt and Brett...but Jones seems to get lost in the shuffle.

perkdog

He definitely doesn't get mentioned as much as Brett and Schmidt but he made the HOF so enough people gave him his due credit

Estil

He went from being #1 on the C-C-C-Cold List in a 1991 Baseball Cards Magazine ("will never be a major leauge star" "while Todd Van Poppel laughs all the way to the bank" they said) to Cooperstown on the first ballot...that's not enough credit for ya?

ElMagoStrikeZone

For hooking up at Hooters while cheating on his wife? Yeah, credit for that. 😏

1948_Swell_Robinson

@Estil said:
He went from being #1 on the C-C-C-Cold List in a 1991 Baseball Cards Magazine ("will never be a major leauge star" "while Todd Van Poppel laughs all the way to the bank" they said) to Cooperstown on the first ballot...that's not enough credit for ya?

Compared to Brett or Schmidt I would say not enough credit. First ballot HOFer for sure credit was given...but looks like more should be given.

As for Hooters... I'm gonna stay away from that one.

JoeBanzai

Jones was better than Brett.
Batting average almost exactly the same.
Higher on base %.
Higher SLG.

Estil

Todd Van Poppel might have laughed all the way to the bank but Chipper laughed all the way to Cooperstown!
See, money is temporary but GLORY is FOREVER. NO FEAR.

Basebal21

Very likely the best switch hitter of all time. People will mention Mantle but he had a significant difference in his average from hitting righty or lefty. Chipper was basically the same from both sides where usually the switch hitters will have significant differences from one side or the other

dallasactuary

@JoeBanzai said:
Jones was better than Brett.
Batting average almost exactly the same.
Higher on base %.
Higher SLG.

What you're demonstrating is that Jones was a better hitter than Brett, and I do agree that he was, but the margin is very slim. But while Brett was about average at third base as a fielder, Jones was terrible. Hitting is a lot more important than fielding at third base, so the slim advantage for Jones as a hitter is pretty much balanced by his deficit as a fielder. You may be right that Jones was better than Brett; I just wanted to bring fielding into the discussion and say that Jones vs. Brett may be too close to call. And I think Eddie Mathews is in the same group.

To address the actual point of the thread, no, I don't think Jones gets enough credit. He is either the 2nd, 3rd, or 4th best third baseman in history, and neither he nor Mathews gets the recognition they deserve.

Tabe

@Basebal21 said:
Very likely the best switch hitter of all time. People will mention Mantle but he had a significant difference in his average from hitting righty or lefty. Chipper was basically the same from both sides where usually the switch hitters will have significant differences from one side or the other

Smaller difference in OPS though. Mickey had an .032 from lefty to right, Chipper had an .058.

JoeBanzai

@dallasactuary said:

@JoeBanzai said:
Jones was better than Brett.
Batting average almost exactly the same.
Higher on base %.
Higher SLG.

What you're demonstrating is that Jones was a better hitter than Brett, and I do agree that he was, but the margin is very slim. But while Brett was about average at third base as a fielder, Jones was terrible. Hitting is a lot more important than fielding at third base, so the slim advantage for Jones as a hitter is pretty much balanced by his deficit as a fielder. You may be right that Jones was better than Brett; I just wanted to bring fielding into the discussion and say that Jones vs. Brett may be too close to call. And I think Eddie Mathews is in the same group.

To address the actual point of the thread, no, I don't think Jones gets enough credit. He is either the 2nd, 3rd, or 4th best third baseman in history, and neither he nor Mathews gets the recognition they deserve.

Schmidt solid #1
I think Mathews #2
Jones would be my #3
Boggs/Brett 4/5 tie

OPS+ knocks Chipper down an awful lot. His hitting numbers are all quite a bit better than Mathews, but not OPS+.
Not sure how to grade these guys on defense. Not sure how many actual runs they gave up because they weren't Brooks Robinson.

1948_Swell_Robinson

@dallasactuary said:

@JoeBanzai said:
Jones was better than Brett.
Batting average almost exactly the same.
Higher on base %.
Higher SLG.

What you're demonstrating is that Jones was a better hitter than Brett, and I do agree that he was, but the margin is very slim. But while Brett was about average at third base as a fielder, Jones was terrible. Hitting is a lot more important than fielding at third base, so the slim advantage for Jones as a hitter is pretty much balanced by his deficit as a fielder. You may be right that Jones was better than Brett; I just wanted to bring fielding into the discussion and say that Jones vs. Brett may be too close to call. And I think Eddie Mathews is in the same group.

To address the actual point of the thread, no, I don't think Jones gets enough credit. He is either the 2nd, 3rd, or 4th best third baseman in history, and neither he nor Mathews gets the recognition they deserve.

Well stated.

craig44

I think Boggs is sometimes overlooked because he did not hit homeruns. during the 80's he was an absolute obp monster. he was a fantastic leadoff hitter who got overlooked because he did not steal bases. but man oh man, did he ever get on base. I think Gwynn is looked at as the better hitter, but check out the OPB difference between the two. I liked Tony, but if I am a manager, give me Boggs all day.

He was a poor fielder when he was younger, but took 150 ground balls every single day and developed into a very good fielder.

I have often wondered what his career stat line would have been had he not been kept in the minors so long. he was a 24 year old rookie!

1948_Swell_Robinson

@craig44 said:
I think Boggs is sometimes overlooked because he did not hit homeruns. during the 80's he was an absolute obp monster. he was a fantastic leadoff hitter who got overlooked because he did not steal bases. but man oh man, did he ever get on base. I think Gwynn is looked at as the better hitter, but check out the OPB difference between the two. I liked Tony, but if I am a manager, give me Boggs all day.

He was a poor fielder when he was younger, but took 150 ground balls every single day and developed into a very good fielder.

I have often wondered what his career stat line would have been had he not been kept in the minors so long. he was a 24 year old rookie!

Agree. Boggs's prime stretch on the Red Sox was very remarkable too.

From 1985 to 1988 Wade Boggs had a 162 OPS+

From 1984 to 1987 Don Mattingly's best stretch he had 155 OPS+

bgr

I don’t think the assessment that Chipper’s defense was terrible is very accurate. Terrible opposes great, while surrounding average, further split by good and bad respectively. It’s disingenuous to state he was terrible because he was closer to good than average at 3B. He was terrible at SS. I get that made up reality is the new norm out there so I guess we just say whatever now and then support it with emotion.

BLUEJAYWAY

@craig44 said:
I think Boggs is sometimes overlooked because he did not hit homeruns. during the 80's he was an absolute obp monster. he was a fantastic leadoff hitter who got overlooked because he did not steal bases. but man oh man, did he ever get on base. I think Gwynn is looked at as the better hitter, but check out the OPB difference between the two. I liked Tony, but if I am a manager, give me Boggs all day.

He was a poor fielder when he was younger, but took 150 ground balls every single day and developed into a very good fielder.

I have often wondered what his career stat line would have been had he not been kept in the minors so long. he was a 24 year old rookie!

It was the chicken.😀

firstbase23

I believe at one point Boggs hit .400 over 162 consecutive games.

Matt

dallasactuary

Upon further consideration, I agree that Mathews is a clear #2, not, as I said earlier, in the same group as Brett and Jones.

And just to complete the list, I'm going with Brett at #3, a hair above Jones at #4. I'm giving the nod to Brett for his 1980 season, and for playing a little bit longer.

And #5 is then Boggs. Not that far behind Jones, but far enough to see some daylight.

There's then considerable daylight down to the next 5, which includes Santo, HR Baker, Brooks, Rolen, and, I guess, Evans. Baker may have been the greatest 3b ever, but he missed a season right at his peak because the A's were dismantling the greatest infield ever and wouldn't trade or pay Baker. When he came back (with a different team) he'd lost a step, and then lost his wife and had to take another year off to take care of his children. He ended up with too short a career to be considered top 5, but his peak may be better than Schmidt's.

I think there's more distance between #5 and #6 than there is between #6 and #10.

But, all of the above assumes A-Rod counts only as a shortstop. If he counts as a 3B, and you count his entire career, then he gives Schmidt a run for his money at #1. If you only count his years as a 3B, he's still in the second five.

bgr

would it be stupid of me to put Beltre in my top 5? is he getting dinged for some reason?

JoeBanzai

@dallasactuary said:
Upon further consideration, I agree that Mathews is a clear #2, not, as I said earlier, in the same group as Brett and Jones.

And just to complete the list, I'm going with Brett at #3, a hair above Jones at #4. I'm giving the nod to Brett for his 1980 season, and for playing a little bit longer.

And #5 is then Boggs. Not that far behind Jones, but far enough to see some daylight.

There's then considerable daylight down to the next 5, which includes Santo, HR Baker, Brooks, Rolen, and, I guess, Evans. Baker may have been the greatest 3b ever, but he missed a season right at his peak because the A's were dismantling the greatest infield ever and wouldn't trade or pay Baker. When he came back (with a different team) he'd lost a step, and then lost his wife and had to take another year off to take care of his children. He ended up with too short a career to be considered top 5, but his peak may be better than Schmidt's.

I think there's more distance between #5 and #6 than there is between #6 and #10.

But, all of the above assumes A-Rod counts only as a shortstop. If he counts as a 3B, and you count his entire career, then he gives Schmidt a run for his money at #1. If you only count his years as a 3B, he's still in the second five.

Good top 5 right there.

JoeBanzai

@bgr said:
would it be stupid of me to put Beltre in my top 5? is he getting dinged for some reason?

I forgot about him.

His OPS and OPS+ are quite a bit below the other 5, but he has the most Plate Apearances.
That should give him a little credit. He seems to be the second best(?) fielder of the group with 5 Gold Gloves.

His top 5 years of Total Bases (average of 333) are second only to Chippers top 5 (336).

I came up with a formula to figure positive at bats by adding TB+BB+SF+SF+HBP+SB-CS-GIDP.
Then divided that by PA.
Results for these 6 are;
Schmidt .600
Chipper .588
Mathews .576
Beltre .508
Boggs .500
This is my new top 6. In that order.

Getting back to the original subject, Chipper has the highest SLG and OPS and is #2 in OBP ( behind Boggs) among these 6 players, so he probably doesn't get the "credit he deserves" when the top 3rd baseman are discussed.

I'm not sure how Mathew's OPS+ is 143 to Chippers 141 when Chipper's OPS is .930 to Ed's .885.
Chipper did hit into a lot of double plays, but he was also a better base stealer than Mathews.

dallasactuary

@JoeBanzai said:

@bgr said:
would it be stupid of me to put Beltre in my top 5? is he getting dinged for some reason?

I forgot about him.

His OPS and OPS+ are quite a bit below the other 5, ...

Yes, and imagine how much worse his OPS+ would have been if he hadn't started mainlining steroids. I seem to remember issuing this challenge a long time ago and nobody successfully accepted it, but here it is again. Name any player whose OPS+ after age 30 was 20% or more greater than it was through age 30. Limited to players who played several full sesons both pre- and post-30, and further limited to players who weren't taking massive amounts of steroids.

Beltre did it. Punkinhead did it. Sosa did it. Probably a few other cheaters did it. But real baseball players? Name one.

JoeBanzai

@dallasactuary said:

@JoeBanzai said:

@bgr said:
would it be stupid of me to put Beltre in my top 5? is he getting dinged for some reason?

I forgot about him.

His OPS and OPS+ are quite a bit below the other 5, ...

Yes, and imagine how much worse his OPS+ would have been if he hadn't started mainlining steroids. I seem to remember issuing this challenge a long time ago and nobody successfully accepted it, but here it is again. Name any player whose OPS+ after age 30 was 20% or more greater than it was through age 30. Limited to players who played several full sesons both pre- and post-30, and further limited to players who weren't taking massive amounts of steroids.

Beltre did it. Punkinhead did it. Sosa did it. Probably a few other cheaters did it. But real baseball players? Name one.

I wasn't aware of the steroids accusation.

craig44

@JoeBanzai said:

@dallasactuary said:

@JoeBanzai said:

@bgr said:
would it be stupid of me to put Beltre in my top 5? is he getting dinged for some reason?

I forgot about him.

His OPS and OPS+ are quite a bit below the other 5, ...

Yes, and imagine how much worse his OPS+ would have been if he hadn't started mainlining steroids. I seem to remember issuing this challenge a long time ago and nobody successfully accepted it, but here it is again. Name any player whose OPS+ after age 30 was 20% or more greater than it was through age 30. Limited to players who played several full sesons both pre- and post-30, and further limited to players who weren't taking massive amounts of steroids.

Beltre did it. Punkinhead did it. Sosa did it. Probably a few other cheaters did it. But real baseball players? Name one.

I wasn't aware of the steroids accusation.

that is exactly what it is: an accusation. to my knowledge, there has never been credible evidence, admission or a failed test. just people speculating.

JoeBanzai

@craig44 said:

@JoeBanzai said:

@dallasactuary said:

@JoeBanzai said:

@bgr said:
would it be stupid of me to put Beltre in my top 5? is he getting dinged for some reason?

I forgot about him.

His OPS and OPS+ are quite a bit below the other 5, ...

Yes, and imagine how much worse his OPS+ would have been if he hadn't started mainlining steroids. I seem to remember issuing this challenge a long time ago and nobody successfully accepted it, but here it is again. Name any player whose OPS+ after age 30 was 20% or more greater than it was through age 30. Limited to players who played several full sesons both pre- and post-30, and further limited to players who weren't taking massive amounts of steroids.

Beltre did it. Punkinhead did it. Sosa did it. Probably a few other cheaters did it. But real baseball players? Name one.

I wasn't aware of the steroids accusation.

that is exactly what it is: an accusation. to my knowledge, there has never been credible evidence, admission or a failed test. just people speculating.

I looked into it and you are correct.

His numbers ARE very suspicious though.

With no hard evidence, I don't like finding people guilty.

By the way, if Harmon Killebrew's numbers are plugged in as a 3rd baseman, he's about tied with Mathews. Hit more home runs. Hit into more Double Plays.

bgr

what is suspicious about this numbers?

like one dude wearing a sign just yelled "steroids" and we care? why?

dallasactuary

@JoeBanzai said:

I looked into it and you are correct.

His numbers ARE very suspicious though.

With no hard evidence, I don't like finding people guilty.

And if we were in a criminal court, that would matter. But since nobody is "finding Beltre guilty", we are free to use our eyes and our brains as we normally would and conclude, based on all of the available "soft" evidence, that Beltre was using steroids. Human beings don't play baseball MUCH better after age 30 than they did before age 30. Never have, never will. Punkinhead, Sosa, and Beltre did, but human beings? Not a one.

By the way, if Harmon Killebrew's numbers are plugged in as a 3rd baseman, he's about tied with Mathews. Hit more home runs. Hit into more Double Plays.

If you actually made Killebrew play third base for his entire career, where would he rank as a third baseman? No way to know for sure, but I strongly suspect his fielding would have been so atrocious (as it was then the Twins did periodically play him there) that it would have more than erased any advantages he has over Mathews and Mathews would remain ahead. As a fielder, Killebrew was a great hitter. Ditto for Chipper Jones, so I'm not knocking Killebrew down the list far at all, just below Mathews' level.

JoeBanzai

Killebrew was not that bad a fielder at 3rd.

dallasactuary

The word "that" is doing a lot of heavy lifting in that sentence. He wasn't Steve Garvey bad, or Dean Palmer bad, but he was closer to them than he was to being good.

Darin

@dallasactuary said:

@JoeBanzai said:

@bgr said:
would it be stupid of me to put Beltre in my top 5? is he getting dinged for some reason?

I forgot about him.

His OPS and OPS+ are quite a bit below the other 5, ...

Yes, and imagine how much worse his OPS+ would have been if he hadn't started mainlining steroids. I seem to remember issuing this challenge a long time ago and nobody successfully accepted it, but here it is again. Name any player whose OPS+ after age 30 was 20% or more greater than it was through age 30. Limited to players who played several full sesons both pre- and post-30, and further limited to players who weren't taking massive amounts of steroids.

Beltre did it. Punkinhead did it. Sosa did it. Probably a few other cheaters did it. But real baseball players? Name one.

Clemente.
I’m surprised you’re not familiar with his slow start and how much he improved. He played 18 years, first 9 years 109 ops+. Second 9 years 151 ops+. His best 5 consecutive year stretch he had a 159 ops+. We’re talking Aaron, Mays levels here for the second half of his career. He was an amazing player and I always enjoy looking at his stats at baseball reference.

Maywood

@JoeBanzai said: I came up with a formula to figure positive at bats by adding TB+BB+SF+SF+HBP+SB-CS-GIDP

After I saw this it made me curious about hometown favorite Jose Ramirez so I ran the numbers and PM Joe who also ran them, came up with .582, just below Jones but ahead of the others. Ramirez has played for 13 seasons so it's no fluke. I'm not good at assessing the numbers like some of you guys but from what I saw he also has a lower average of errors/season of around 10 but hasn't won a Gold Glove yet. He's won 5 Silver Sluggers and is head and shoulders above all the others on the base paths, not even close. He is quite quietly crafting a Hall of Fame career right under everyone's nose, probably because he plays in Cleveland.

Darin

Maywood, Ramirez is amazing. Trust me, everyone who roots for a team in that division like me (royals) knows how good he is. Incredibly consistent through the years. I’ve always wondered how he steals so many bags, looking at him he looks a little bit chubby and not slim and trim like a typical speedster.
I’m a fan, hope he keeps it up but I also hope he slumps against KC.😆

Maywood

Ramirez won't beat anyone in a 100 yard dash but he reads pitchers well and gets from base to base as quick as anyone. Earlier this season he stole 2nd and 3rd, then later in the game he stole 3rd again. That's almost unheard of. He also has good hand/eye coordination and sure hands that result in few mistakes in the field.

What I like most about Jose Ramirez is that he will happily do whatever the team wants him to do. Early in his career he played LF, I think Lonnie Chisenhall was at 3rd, then for about 3 years he played at 2nd/SS/3rd depending on need. I remember the teams regular 2nd baseman was injured and Jose gladly moved to that position till he was healthy again, then rotated back to 3rd. In this day of modern athletes who seem to only seek money, Jose Ramirez has stated he wants to stay in Cleveland.

Loyalty, what a concept!!

JoeBanzai

@Maywood said:
Ramirez won't beat anyone in a 100 yard dash but he reads pitchers well and gets from base to base as quick as anyone. Earlier this season he stole 2nd and 3rd, then later in the game he stole 3rd again. That's almost unheard of. He also has good hand/eye coordination and sure hands that result in few mistakes in the field.

What I like most about Jose Ramirez is that he will happily do whatever the team wants him to do. Early in his career he played LF, I think Lonnie Chisenhall was at 3rd, then for about 3 years he played at 2nd/SS/3rd depending on need. I remember the teams regular 2nd baseman was injured and Jose gladly moved to that position till he was healthy again, then rotated back to 3rd. In this day of modern athletes who seem to only seek money, Jose Ramirez has stated he wants to stay in Cleveland.

Loyalty, what a concept!!

Sounds a lot like Harmon Killebrew with speed.

Darin

@JoeBanzai said:

@bgr said:
would it be stupid of me to put Beltre in my top 5? is he getting dinged for some reason?

I forgot about him.

His OPS and OPS+ are quite a bit below the other 5, but he has the most Plate Apearances.
That should give him a little credit. He seems to be the second best(?) fielder of the group with 5 Gold Gloves.

His top 5 years of Total Bases (average of 333) are second only to Chippers top 5 (336).

I came up with a formula to figure positive at bats by adding TB+BB+SF+SF+HBP+SB-CS-GIDP.
Then divided that by PA.
Results for these 6 are;
Schmidt .600
Chipper .588
Mathews .576
Beltre .508
Boggs .500
This is my new top 6. In that order.

Getting back to the original subject, Chipper has the highest SLG and OPS and is #2 in OBP ( behind Boggs) among these 6 players, so he probably doesn't get the "credit he deserves" when the top 3rd baseman are discussed.

I'm not sure how Mathew's OPS+ is 143 to Chippers 141 when Chipper's OPS is .930 to Ed's .885.
Chipper did hit into a lot of double plays, but he was also a better base stealer than Mathews.

Joe you only have 5 players in your top 6.

Darin

I believe Dallas has called an emergency meeting with Bill James to try to figure out if there’s any way to get out of admitting he was wrong about a player improving at least 20% without steroids from his thirties to twenties. Word is his mentor is deeply disappointed in him and is scrambling to come up with some advanced mathematical solution to get Dallas out of this situation.
My advice to Dallas would be just forget about Bill James and hand this over to stevek.
Stevie will come up with 10-12 nonsensical paragraphs on the subject interspersed with personal stories and experiences that have nothing to do with the subject. I will start reading steves post and nod off somewhere between paragraph 4-6 and ultimately forget about the whole thing altogether, giving Dallas a pseudo victory.

dallasactuary

I should have checked here first, but I won't repeat myself here. My recognition that you were right and I was wrong is in the Bobby Witt thread.

Darin

@dallasactuary said:
I should have checked here first, but I won't repeat myself here. My recognition that you were right and I was wrong is in the Bobby Witt thread.

Yes!!
Thank you Dallas 🥳
I’m thrilled we didn’t have to get stevek involved.

JoeBanzai

@Darin said:

@JoeBanzai said:

@bgr said:
would it be stupid of me to put Beltre in my top 5? is he getting dinged for some reason?

I forgot about him.

His OPS and OPS+ are quite a bit below the other 5, but he has the most Plate Apearances.
That should give him a little credit. He seems to be the second best(?) fielder of the group with 5 Gold Gloves.

His top 5 years of Total Bases (average of 333) are second only to Chippers top 5 (336).

I came up with a formula to figure positive at bats by adding TB+BB+SF+SF+HBP+SB-CS-GIDP.
Then divided that by PA.
Results for these 6 are;
Schmidt .600
Chipper .588
Mathews .576
Beltre .508
Boggs .500
This is my new top 6. In that order.

Getting back to the original subject, Chipper has the highest SLG and OPS and is #2 in OBP ( behind Boggs) among these 6 players, so he probably doesn't get the "credit he deserves" when the top 3rd baseman are discussed.

I'm not sure how Mathew's OPS+ is 143 to Chippers 141 when Chipper's OPS is .930 to Ed's .885.
Chipper did hit into a lot of double plays, but he was also a better base stealer than Mathews.

Joe you only have 5 players in your top 6.

Brett is at #4

1948_Swell_Robinson

@Darin said:

@dallasactuary said:

@JoeBanzai said:

@bgr said:
would it be stupid of me to put Beltre in my top 5? is he getting dinged for some reason?

I forgot about him.

His OPS and OPS+ are quite a bit below the other 5, ...

Yes, and imagine how much worse his OPS+ would have been if he hadn't started mainlining steroids. I seem to remember issuing this challenge a long time ago and nobody successfully accepted it, but here it is again. Name any player whose OPS+ after age 30 was 20% or more greater than it was through age 30. Limited to players who played several full sesons both pre- and post-30, and further limited to players who weren't taking massive amounts of steroids.

Beltre did it. Punkinhead did it. Sosa did it. Probably a few other cheaters did it. But real baseball players? Name one.

Clemente.
I’m surprised you’re not familiar with his slow start and how much he improved. He played 18 years, first 9 years 109 ops+. Second 9 years 151 ops+. His best 5 consecutive year stretch he had a 159 ops+. We’re talking Aaron, Mays levels here for the second half of his career. He was an amazing player and I always enjoy looking at his stats at baseball reference.

In 3,080 plate appearances Brian Downing had a 109 OPS+ through age 30.
From age 31-41 it was 128. Not quire 20% increase but the sentiment is there.

But, from age 35-41 it was 131 in 3,783 plate appearances.

Downing had a stark increase in home runs in those time periods.

@dallasactuary