any ideas on what is going on in the graded card world..
olb31
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beckett is up big and has passed sgc on weekly and monthly grading. no for or against either, just thought it was a huge change. last time i graded at beckett it took 11 months to get my cards back. sgc got them back to me in 3 weeks. the grading is pretty fair by both.
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Check it out.
https://www.gemrate.com/
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It's the singer not the song - Peter Townshend (1972)
Not even a minute do I buy the whole buh buh buh I'm a man-child japery - Me 2025
SGC winding down operations.
They web scrape the pop reports.
That is my takeaway too. I quickly stopped sending cards there after a brief flirtation. Love their holder but it quickly became apparent it’s just PSA with a different look.
I wouldn’t be surprised to see an announcement soon they’re being phased out.
What’s the next company to fill that void?
I agree with the idea that CU is scared of Fanatics. They bought SGC to prevent Fanatics from doing so. They don’t know what to do with it. I suspect CU is run by “less than” top to bottom, and this is evidenced by their operations, communications, and technology. Someone needs to expose them and make room for competition. This is why they protect their database from spidering. Coherent access to the data shines a light on their incompetence.
This is what I’ve heard but I disagree and fully support collectors. Great company.
I hate to see any company go away and just want to see competition making them all as great as they can be. Win/win for companies and collectors.
I can’t believe Fanatics aren’t already trying to figure out how to get into the grading market. Not sure if that’s good or bad but it should be their next step. One stop shop for buying, grading, vaulting and selling. They’d be the Amazon of collecting.
The owner of Fantics already owns part of CGC.... Thus why fanatics has a close tie-in with CGC. And it is already one-stop on fanaticscollect.com
I feel the decrease in SGC subs makes a lot of sense. I had my stack of raw cards and graded cards to send in and then heard Nat speak about his plans with SGC and doubt I will ever send them now. If SGC was a publicly traded company I think it would have gone down 90% in a day.
It was very clear he has no desire in seeing SGC be a successful company that grows and thrives. Seems like the goal was more to stick a pin or a knife in SGC to watch it deflate. It seemed as if the main goal was to deal with competition vs. buy a company they wanted to see do well. Also pull staff off of SGC to help with PSA. If I recall he said something to the effect of wanting to see the company be small/smaller. Be a boutique grader even though some of us are not sure what that means.
I think the interview more or less had the intent of setting all SGC demand on fire and destroying it. After hearing the interview, I cant imagine why anybody would want to send their cards to SGC more than they did previously. This interview came after serious concerns with the 5 to 10 day turnaround time no longer being able to be met. So it just amplified the worry about the SGC experience and the future value of cards in their holders.
Not sure what could be happening with Beckett. I think they have always had a space for the auto'ed #ed refractor cards and maybe as the hobby expands there are more box/case hits that end up in their hands. In the Pokemon space, there definitely seems to be a growing interest now with this group of collectors to try for BGS Pristine and BGS Pristine black label when it comes to the most appealing cards. That may be giving them a bump in sub #s.
really?
The amount of TCG being graded continues to blow my mind.
Thanks. Did not know that. If the person is out there that wants to take a chance and get ahead of the crowd then grading there seems to be the way to test the water.
sgc has a couple of the highest sold cards of all-time..it won't go away.
Could be but why would that really matter?
I can see the board discussing shuttering SGC but then Jerry from Data reminds everyone that some of the highest sold cards of all time were in SGC slabs. They all have a laugh.
I don't understand why PSA has not merged the SGC data specs records with their own and begun to grade a larger variety of items. SGC continues to grade a relatively large amount of different foreign/oddball/etc. items that PSA does not, particularly pre-1950 and back.
The dude that paid $12 million for the 9.5 mantle probably has a lot more say than you are giving him credit for. I think we all know money talks.
The above is the second highest of all-time. the 4th highest of all-time is an SGC Honus Wagner for $6.6 million. SGC isn't going to just evaporate. PSA would have to recognize these type of cards in some manner without just eliminating it. And there are many more high profile sells of SGC cards.
I would still send my cards to SGC, mainly for the fast service. Their grading is decently fair, IMO.
Peanuts
I can see cards in SGC holders continuing to have decent sale prices, especially on the older stuff where they have had a reputation for a while. I think the prices staying consistent is dependent on the absence of a scandal where their grading appears fraudulent, biased, etc.
I dont think they can be comped to GAI. Its a unique set of circumstances. But for now I think the grades still feel valid.
I just think the submissions should slow based on the messaging and recent changes with operations/turnaround time/customer service experience. I think that could change over time though. I wouldn't bank on it but maybe they dont want to completely destroy the company. It just feels like the same model used at PSA for many years. Demand feels too strong, lets do things to decrease demand. They may want to see interest in SGC scale back to 2012 green label SGC.
Hmmm...got to be a pretty rich entity to buy a company (what like about $100 million) and just let it go down the drain with no real plan for it...doubt they spent this money to just waste it ehh? No? maybe PSA gained market share to cover the SGC purchase price?
I'm not saying I know what CU is thinking any more than you guys do, but I've been in the room where we've thrown $200, $300, $500 Million at a company just to put it down. So the idea that this isn't a game of keep-away, and for the reasons you're saying about SGC's value, feels foreign to me because of my experience to the contrary and knowing also that this happens all the time. There's a world out there where $100M isn't even real money. Cohen and D1 Cap are the major players in CU and what they might lose on SGC they can make back insider trading.
Or so I read in an article once, but I don't believe a lick of it.
DO we know that Cohen doesn't own some big time SGC cards?
Sometimes I think you argue what you want, because you want it really bad. I like that.
100MM - Ha! A mere bag of shells - Ralph Kramden's version of "a mere bagatelle"
Cohen has thrown 7.5x more than that into Soto's contract
It's the singer not the song - Peter Townshend (1972)
Not even a minute do I buy the whole buh buh buh I'm a man-child japery - Me 2025
I think there absolutely is a world where SGC is folded/ended. The grades are the grades. Whether a collector decides at that point it's more advantageous to take an existing SGC and have them regraded or (even better for CU) reholdered through a service at PSA also seems like a great money maker. Or the collector can just leave them in the SGC.
Or maybe the collector waits 10 years to see if Fanatics has taken over the market to be the #1 grader and change them to a Fanatics brand...
BTW don't put it past Cohen et al having acquired SGC as part of a machination to sell CU to Fanatics at some point
It's the singer not the song - Peter Townshend (1972)
Not even a minute do I buy the whole buh buh buh I'm a man-child japery - Me 2025
I agree with this - very logical. If PSA intends to minimalize the brand or kill it, the fact that there are two big cards in SGC slabs wouldn't be a deterrent. SGC going away wouldn't impact the value of these cards, IMO, because the guys in that space, who have the cash to buy cards like this, would know the story. SGC has always had a great reputation with vintage and, barring a scandal that impacts the integrety of the grading, these cards will always be relevant and desirable.
As everyone is saying here, I dont know, most of us cant claim to know. But if I'm guessing, I think the top two reasons Collector's wanted to acquire SGC (or maybe just the two biggest benefits they are seeing) are:
1) Prevent SGC from cutting into PSA market share and business. I have to admit pre-acquisition with SGC's 5 to 10 day turnaround, emails answered in less than an hour, $15 per card whether its graded value was $35 or $1900, fair not as strict as PSA grading standards on cards from the previous century, I could have potentially said I only submit to them now. I think the problem was once upon a time SGC would take the tiniest market share on pre-war stuff. They will grab a little T206 business. Fine. Let them. But they were starting to take business on all years of cards. Could see Collectors trying to get it back to that old way, send your vintage and pre-war cards to SGC. Maybe that is what boutique means. PSA no longer grades cards from the 1940s and earlier. Send those to SGC. We want the rest.
2) Personnel-I think they recognized they had serious staff problems and getting all the Doordash Uber folks to grade cards was not working out as well as hoped. Think they recognized there was some serious talent in senior leadership and grading staff at SGC and that had a lot of value. Then it was kill two birds with one stone, add all this talent to PSA and damage the brand at SGC by taking it so that those SGC submissions slow down.
If SGC ceases operations the slabs don’t turn to mush. In fact they get crossed to PSA pretty quick thereafter.
And add me to the group that has been involved in transactions much bigger than SGC that were quickly abandoned post acquisition.
Personally, and I’m on record here saying as such, always felt this was a buy then kill acquisition. Makes no sense to run both brands over the long term.
I get that its done and its an idea that is probably widely embraced. I was never in the room when these things were discussed so I get it less. But I struggle with the math and the logic. If McDonald's bought Wendy's maybe keep selling the square burgers and the Frosty's as long as you aren't losing money. Cause you have some people who will only eat a square burger and if you make the square burgers go away, those people wont buy a quarter pounder or a McDonald's milkshake. SGC was a very different product. That was why it was so appealing. So think the two could coexist.
The example works for me cause if I felt confident about SGC being owned by Collector's and that interview wasn't given, I'd be giving Collector's my money to submit sports cards for grading. Because I dont feel confident, Collector's wont get any of my money for sports card grading. In that sense they lose money. I wont eat a quarter pounder or drink a milkshake cause they took away the one I like more. Just no more fast food. If I want a graded sports card I will buy it in the slab.
SGC was a growing company with a lot of potential. It feels like it makes sense to let them go on their path and see how well they can do. I was taught in business classes you make a business decision based on the idea of if you spend x, can you make x + anything. If you can make more than x, it makes sense to do "the thing." But that principle does not seem to be at work here. Maybe the Collector's guy were taught by different professors using different textbooks.
Did any of your business classes cover Coke vs. Pepsi?
After reading most all posts it seems that the SGC vintage talent is of a large value and will be utilized by PSA is some way or form...i.e. SGC becomes a vintage boutique type organization under the Collector's Universe umbrella or absorbed into the PSA brand,
I dont suppose they did. But I also didn't take business classes in undergraduate and only got through most of the core classes in business school. But I'd be interested if it applies here. I would have thunk if one bought the other they wouldn't shut it down.
The more I think about it I almost feel like PSA buying SGC was like McDonald's buying Chik-fil-A. Do think just very different customer bases. Because I honestly feel like the reason SGC was growing so rapidly was because a lot of people who started doing business with them hated the PSA customer experience. So if they kill SGC or degrade them I dont think they get those people's business back.
Right on...as most all agree, the vintage customer was becoming more and more dissatisfied with the grading experience,
I wasn't drawing a conclusion or anything, but that's an interesting one that I remember. Look it up if you're bored.
TLDR; It's a game theory concept where companies which exist in direct competition end up in a Nash equilibrium. If Coke raises prices, more people buy Pepsi - and so the story goes with their prices entangled.
I would like to see SGC incorporated into PSA and then I think there's lots of interesting options how to do that and what to do with the slabs and the flips. But that will never happen because I never get what I want. Oh Bother.
Math on this is pretty straightforward. SGC was grading 1M+ cards per year and must have a total population north of 10M cards. If PSA captures 50% of the front book and same for the backbook, spread out over the next decade, they are golden. Plus the talent that was acquired, IP, and the value on running interference on Fanatics plans.
Total no brainer to wind SGC down.
Its tough to say whether it was/will be worth the price they paid because the price is not public. I guess the math I'm looking at is SGC as a business made x amount of dollars and y amount of profit pre-acquisition. So Collectors paid a price for that. Then they ruined the brand and the amount of of money their acquired company makes. So x minus a lot is the new amount of money they make from the acquired company. If they shut the company down it makes no money, new revenue is x-x. Cost and no revenue/profit, decreased profit often feels like a bad move but they aren't public so they can do whatever they want. Now I admitted I did not finish my MBA 🤣 but I struggle with the idea of how making no money from the acquired company is better than making a lot of money from the acquired company, letting them continue to be a successful growing business.
I get that the talent alone has a lot of value. But there is no guarantee those people dont quit cause they dont like PSA. Its very possible they dont want to be part of PSA. I think that SGC employees rejected the idea of coming over and PSA had to have a building/office next to SGC to get them to work with PSA is telling. Did notice there is a new ship to address on SGC's site.
I guess too there is the idea that you buy the business and the way you keep the business is continuing to give customers what they want. Which they didn't do. So it becomes less clear how much business they keep, how many customers say if you kill SGC, I will do PSA instead. I feel a lot wont but its just a guess.
Solution: Shift all of the Pokemon grading over to SGC exclusively and watch how excited the gamers become when they have their own sexy holder. Return vintage sports card grading to PSA high level most experienced and gifted graders to acknowledge the demand currently fading like a summer tan. How disrespectful they’ve been to those same people who helped to finance their rapid growth this century. Pie in the sky I know, but the idea sounded cute so I wrote it.
20+ years ago I heard that SGC was the place to go if you had pre-war cards. Or even up to Korean War era. Giving them Pokemon is probably exactly the wrong thing to do. My guess is that SGCs database is worth something to PSA because SGC was a more knowledgeable company in many areas. You can't buy that kind of knowledge or experience. You can buy the database though. Unfortunately people age out and knowledge gets lost. The logos stay the same though. Who knows if the same people are at SGC. It could also be that the guys there who were interested in older cards are just don't want to deal with the stuff they're being asked to handle now. Gotta wonder why they sold.
Pokemon also seems to be making PSA a ton of cash.
It's also kinda interesting that when these grading companies started you couldn't just search the internet for, like, all the information about these cards. Now it's really easy to get information. I guess it's also true that tons of people believe what they read on the internet without questioning.
PSA was great until they sold their soul to have the ultra-modern market (which was probably the best business decision) and SGC was the best at grading vintage. Then they bought SGC and basically turned them into PSA 2.0. I still don't get that lost opportunity to control the vintage market.
I'm sitting on several hundred vintage that I'd like to grade, but since I don't sell I'm not grading. I want to see how this all shakes out over the next few years and then I'll choose who grades them.
I am in the same situation and agree with you compy
No. And while I don't dismiss the importance of what might be unfolding, this can still be a hobby that can be enjoyed at different levels. My collection is more representative of MLB history and the times with more of an emphasis on excellent players that seem to have fallen between the cracks... and it really is fun seeking out cards of such players in contrast to HOF rookie cards and cards in general of HOF players.
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
In line with all the comments on this thread so far, I'm pretty certain that it has been 7 full years since the last time PSA has offered a monthly special that focused on cards that were issued pre-1950. I can't find record of one that was more recent than July 2018. They've done specials on modern more times than I can count them since then though.
This angle had me thinking they should have bought CGC instead of SGC if that was an option. There has been some discussion that it worked to buy SGC from an angle of eliminating competition. But I'm not sure they want a lot of the business that was going to SGC. SGC was getting 80s and early business because people were disappointed with PSA results. So damaging the SGC brand or shutting it down would seem to have the cards they dont want to grade returning to them to some degree. Some modern sports would come to them though.
But I would think the space PSA cares most about is Pokemon/TCG. SGC has close to no presence there. CGC absolutely has a decent chunk of that market. So buying them and breaking them/shutting them down could have helped PSA in the way I feel they value most.
The company that owns CGC has 10 times the employees that Collectors Universe has. They did over 13billion in 2024 to Collectors Universe's 75mil.
great discussion. lots of great ideas....grok says..sgc is viable for the long-term probably grading mostly pre 2000 cards. but who knows..
I see. Maybe they can buy Collector's then. Not sure I'd mind that.
I have often thought that if Beckett could actually get some management in that knew/cared about the hobby they could make a huge comeback.
Pete left SGC over the summer. He turned SGC into the number 2 grader before the purchase by CU. I bet he could make a big turnaround at Beckett if they brought him onboard.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
so if sgc is shut down at some point..do the grades get automatically accepted by psa? cgc automatically accepted cgs. so you can have the card reviewed and put into a psa holder with same sgc grade?