Advice Requested on CÁC >> PCGS Crossover

Theharsh98

Howdy!

Get ready for the dude who is just learning coins to start questioning grades / thinking he knows more, lol.

Long-story short, submitted some coins to PCGS last year. Overall decent experience, but the cost and length of grading time pushed me to try CAC’s new grading service. Good experience with some coins, great price, nice turnaround times, but three negative outcomes:

1. At least in comparison to some PCGS-slabbed coins, some of the grades seemed (unreasonably) strict,
2. There were a few details grades I really didn’t expect (just seemed a bit harsh), and
3. There was a variety they just altogether didn’t recognize (may have been my bad; PCGS recognizes 1969-D 1C No-FG but I don’t think it’s officially a Red Book variety).

Now I know everyone walks into getting graded with higher expectations than outcomes, these just seemed a bit extra low, lol. So, I’m thinking of submitting for crossover (or breaking out and resubmitting raw) to PCGS. That said, here are my questions:

1. For the non-details graded coins, my assumption would be to, generally, submit the slabbed CAC coins as-is with the minimum grade whatever would make sense per Greysheet. Is that accurate?
2. For the details graded coins, is it better to submit as-is (slabbed) or break out and submit raw? I have trouble with the idea of crossover for this reason in general, but especially with a details grade, I wonder whether a PCGS grader would grade with a bit more scrutiny if they noticed someone else had previously marked details?

I could be overthinking these, but would love any experiential input. If I’m just setting myself up for disappointment, absolutely appreciative of that feedback as well.

Thanks!

MsMorrisine

basing min grades off a pricing sheet? wrong idea. try figuring out the grade then determining if it is worth submitting

not sure about the no FG issue

generally, we need pictures

MFeld

Welcome to the forum.

I recommend not doing anything with the coins until you can show them to one or more highly knowledgable collectors or dealers who are willing to provide assessments and feedback. Otherwise, I get the feeling that you might be spinning your wheels and wasting submission fees. Either way, best of luck.

ProofCollection

For the details coins, you must crack them out if you hope PCGS will straight-grade it. I doubt PCGS would be able to "unsee" the details grade.
For non-details, you might as well crack those out too because theoretically PCGS should grade the same or higher (though not always), and it sounds like the grades are lower than you believe are appropriate anyway, and it saves you the crossover fee (1% I believe).
For your variety, PCGS recognizes the 69-D 1c No FG, it's coin number 415498 so that should not be a problem.

jmlanzaf

@MsMorrisine said:
basing min grades off a pricing sheet? wrong idea. try figuring out the grade then determining if it is worth submitting

not sure about the no FG issue

generally, we need pictures

I sort of agree. It shouldn't be the ONLY criteria. But it is a good idea to see if an upgrade, should it occur, is actually worth the cost of submission.

jmlanzaf

There is no answer to this question without seeing the coins.

PhilLynott

I've enjoyed this hobby for decades with basically never submitting any coins for grading. Have probably sent in less than 5 submissions total and all took longer than expected, cost way too much and didn't get the results I had hoped.

For me, and I would wager a guess most average collectors, it's way more enjoyable to buy coins and leave them as is after that happens. People start the hobby and think grading is part of the game and I'm supposed to do this but the truth is it's a money pit until you get way more seasoned.

messydesk

You need to back away from the submission forms and have someone that can look at your coins go over them with you.

Crypto

As other smarter people have said there are no generic rules only different company’s standards applied to unique coins.

Each coin needs to be graded by the approximate methodology used by the service it is being submitted to and then weighed by the expected result vs the cost for service. To-be vs as-is Value and liquidity should both come into the equation.

That said even the pros aren’t perfect at this and get surprises and a hit and miss ratio should also be built into your model.

Historically if you are simply a collector who wants their coins in specific holders and only possess average grading skills, it is most often wise/cost effective to buy the coins already in the desirable configuration and use the old ones to trade.

marcmoish

@jmlanzaf said:
There is no EASY answer to this question without seeing the coins.

I added EASY, to this correct message.

Bikergeek

@ProofCollection said:
For the details coins, you must crack them out if you hope PCGS will straight-grade it. I doubt PCGS would be able to "unsee" the details grade.
For non-details, you might as well crack those out too because theoretically PCGS should grade the same or higher (though not always), and it sounds like the grades are lower than you believe are appropriate anyway, and it saves you the crossover fee (1% I believe).
For your variety, PCGS recognizes the 69-D 1c No FG, it's coin number 415498 so that should not be a problem.

@Theharsh98, your questions show great acuity. It took me a long time in my collecting hobby before I finally got a membership and submitted some coins. Some of my lessons were uncomfortable. I've used both PCGS and CACG and there are aspects to both, as you hint at. I won't delve into those here, nor will I ask you for photos so I can advise on the merits of grading or not grading your specific coins. I'll accept that you want 'em graded.

With that, I'll say that @ProofCollection provided a solid response here. I will add a few other notes: I don't crack out straight-graded coins if I can't tolerate the risk that they'll be downgraded. If I have a (straight-graded) 62 that I think is a 63, but I fear that the grader will fund some rub and knock it down to AU, then I will usually cross, not crack.

And a final note: I'm not sure about how this is holding up in reality, but an early theory about CACG was that their coins would command a higher price than those of other companies. If a CACG 62 commands the same value as a PCGS 63 (or an NGC/ANACS 64, or an ICG 65, etc) then there's little monetary upside to crossing just for the number.

Welcome to the forum!

johnny9434

No pics, no comments really. It makes it difficult, just saying

PapiNE

If I'm not convinced its details, I break it out regardless. If I send it to another TPG and it returns details again, I'm done with the coin as it's no longer an opinion. If I've learned one thing it's they make mistakes. I've had better luck with crossovers than reconsiderations. I just fired off a batch of crossovers I feel should upgrade; some stickered, some not. I consider it a test of my own skills so have fun with it.

Theharsh98

Thank you so very much, all, for the feedback and comments! These were super helpful. I was having trouble attaching pictures initially, but was able to this morning.

Attached a few examples of:

1969-D 1C - The No FGs they graded (or graded details) but no variety attribution (it’s FS-801, if memory serves). I’m not sure if they’re thinking the lack of FG is damage or the residue from the coin roll (I’m guessing the latter). If from the coin roll, would that actually be “damage”?

1959-D 1C - Obv was looking for MS-67 here by some miracle. I did get two 66s, but wondering if considering how strict CAC is PCGS would grade one up. The coin they say was “wiped” was in the same roll as the two 66s 😂

1969-D 1C “Questionable Color” - I want to see if I can get it graded, but understand that may not happen. This was due to the specific type of tube this was stored in (I’ve got like 40) and just find it stunning. This is more of the hobbyist in me - I don’t care about the $ value, this one (for whatever reason) has value to me.

1998-D 1C - They graded 65, but no PL designation.

P.S.
Don’t judge (too hard), these are generally not the type of coins I would submit (let alone resubmit, lol). I submitted them to CAC in the first place because the package I sent also had these four (I’ll reply a second time with those pictures)

1881 $1 (Pittman pedigree, PF67)
1795 Draped Bust Set Left BB-51 (XF45),
1797 10x6 stars (VG10); and
1800 $1 (F15)

So, I was like “If I’m paying out the ass for insurance anyways, why not throw a few hopefuls in there bc who knows” lol. Resubmitting the ones I am because I’m petty asf 😂

Theharsh98

Here’s the “reasons” I submitted those lol - again, promise it made financial sense 🤣

FlyingAl

CAC is a tad tougher, but there's no real surprises there from what I'm seeing. I'd say keep the coins as they are now and take it as a learning experience.

Did the 1881, 1800, or 1795 cross?

messydesk

@FlyingAl said:
CAC is a tad tougher, but there's no real surprises there from what I'm seeing. I'd say keep the coins as they are now and take it as a learning experience.

Did the 1881, 1800, or 1795 cross?

The 1881 will should never cross in that holder because the holder is too beat up to assess the PR67-ness of that coin accurately.

logger7

I agree with the others; I've found cac generally accurate as if they are constantly being watched and so they will not grade gratuitously.

FlyingAl

@messydesk said:

@FlyingAl said:
CAC is a tad tougher, but there's no real surprises there from what I'm seeing. I'd say keep the coins as they are now and take it as a learning experience.

Did the 1881, 1800, or 1795 cross?

The 1881 will should never cross in that holder because the holder is too beat up to assess the PR67-ness of that coin accurately.

I didn’t think it was that bad personally.

Granted, I’ve seen some pretty bad holders.

messydesk

@FlyingAl said:

@messydesk said:

@FlyingAl said:
CAC is a tad tougher, but there's no real surprises there from what I'm seeing. I'd say keep the coins as they are now and take it as a learning experience.

Did the 1881, 1800, or 1795 cross?

The 1881 will should never cross in that holder because the holder is too beat up to assess the PR67-ness of that coin accurately.

I didn’t think it was that bad personally.

Not bad for assessing an MS64 Morgan, but a PR67 is a different animal, and there is no giving the benefit of the doubt in a crossover.

johnny9434

Love the 1800 $1 coin 🪙

ChrisH821

"Just getting into coins" but has many thousands of dollars in just three coins... How is this?
You seem to be simultaneously in the "deep end" and the "kiddie pool", so to speak.
No offense intended here, but this seems highly unusual.
Sorry, forgot to answer your question, CAC does seem to be quite harsh in grading. I have managed to get one upgrade in a crossover from PCGS, a PR65 to PR65+ on a nickel that I thought should grade PR66, a couple of others crossed at grade but less than 50%.

Theharsh98

@ChrisH821 said:
"Just getting into coins" but has many thousands of dollars in just three coins... How is this?
You seem to be simultaneously in the "deep end" and the "kiddie pool", so to speak.
No offense intended here, but this seems highly unusual.
Sorry, forgot to answer your question, CAC does seem to be quite harsh in grading. I have managed to get one upgrade in a crossover from PCGS, a PR65 to PR65+ on a nickel that I thought should grade PR66, a couple of others crossed at grade but less than 50%.

You’ve never found yourself up at 2:00AM with a bottle of wine, a credit card, and and an irrational hatred for “MorganMan26” bidding against you on an auction site?

Lol, half kidding, but fair question. I am definitely in both pools, ha! I have a tendency to burn through hobbies like wildfire, and I’ve sincerely enjoyed coins - the hunt, the beauty, etc., even if only over the past few months.

So, I was like “well, maybe I’ll stick with a hobby if I make it an investment too”, and so far it’s working, LOL! I mean hey, being a 26yo with those coins is pretty fun to share too, and blessed with a career that allows that flexibility. Nonetheless, still learning the ropes!

P.S. Forgot to mention - My personality is one to jump in headfirst, so in I go! I’m sincerely appreciative of any advice / wisdom y’all have to offer!

PeakRarities

@messydesk said:

@FlyingAl said:

@messydesk said:

@FlyingAl said:
CAC is a tad tougher, but there's no real surprises there from what I'm seeing. I'd say keep the coins as they are now and take it as a learning experience.

Did the 1881, 1800, or 1795 cross?

The 1881 will should never cross in that holder because the holder is too beat up to assess the PR67-ness of that coin accurately.

I didn’t think it was that bad personally.

Not bad for assessing an MS64 Morgan, but a PR67 is a different animal, and there is no giving the benefit of the doubt in a crossover.

Agreed, If an effort needs to be made to evaluate a coin through a scratchy NGC holder, you're better off either cracking it out or crossing at any grade. My last crossover sub, I polished each holder the best I could and submitted them all in protector sleeves. It seemed to have a positive effect, but cant say for certain.

PeakRarities

@Theharsh98 said:

@ChrisH821 said:
"Just getting into coins" but has many thousands of dollars in just three coins... How is this?
You seem to be simultaneously in the "deep end" and the "kiddie pool", so to speak.
No offense intended here, but this seems highly unusual.
Sorry, forgot to answer your question, CAC does seem to be quite harsh in grading. I have managed to get one upgrade in a crossover from PCGS, a PR65 to PR65+ on a nickel that I thought should grade PR66, a couple of others crossed at grade but less than 50%.

You’ve never found yourself up at 2:00AM with a bottle of wine, a credit card, and and an irrational hatred for “MorganMan26” bidding against you on an auction site?

Lol, half kidding, but fair question. I am definitely in both pools, ha! I have a tendency to burn through hobbies like wildfire, and I’ve sincerely enjoyed coins - the hunt, the beauty, etc., even if only over the past few months.

So, I was like “well, maybe I’ll stick with a hobby if I make it an investment too”, and so far it’s working, LOL! I mean hey, being a 26yo with those coins is pretty fun to share too, and blessed with a career that allows that flexibility. Nonetheless, still learning the ropes!

P.S. Forgot to mention - My personality is one to jump in headfirst, so in I go! I’m sincerely appreciative of any advice / wisdom y’all have to offer!

Welcome, you sort of remind me of myself when I joined. A few things-

1. Grading is not a science, it's more like art ...mixed with gambling.

2. If spending serious money like some of the coins you've shown, I'd stick with stickered coins for a while to give you a baseline, then you can venture out a bit without financial peril.

3. Either collect by type, or stick to the high demand series. I'd go with type collecting though, spread out your eggs in case a couple turn rotten.

AND (this ones important)

Go to a coin show. Any coin show. Look at coins, all of them. When lot viewing, cover up the label and try to guess the grade for each coin before you look at the grade. Summer Seminar grading class is highly recommended, but I cant stress enough that looking at as many coins as possible is the best way to fast track your learning. Best of luck, you can pm me anytime if you want a second set of eyes.

MFeld

@PeakRarities said:

@Theharsh98 said:

@ChrisH821 said:
"Just getting into coins" but has many thousands of dollars in just three coins... How is this?
You seem to be simultaneously in the "deep end" and the "kiddie pool", so to speak.
No offense intended here, but this seems highly unusual.
Sorry, forgot to answer your question, CAC does seem to be quite harsh in grading. I have managed to get one upgrade in a crossover from PCGS, a PR65 to PR65+ on a nickel that I thought should grade PR66, a couple of others crossed at grade but less than 50%.

You’ve never found yourself up at 2:00AM with a bottle of wine, a credit card, and and an irrational hatred for “MorganMan26” bidding against you on an auction site?

Lol, half kidding, but fair question. I am definitely in both pools, ha! I have a tendency to burn through hobbies like wildfire, and I’ve sincerely enjoyed coins - the hunt, the beauty, etc., even if only over the past few months.

So, I was like “well, maybe I’ll stick with a hobby if I make it an investment too”, and so far it’s working, LOL! I mean hey, being a 26yo with those coins is pretty fun to share too, and blessed with a career that allows that flexibility. Nonetheless, still learning the ropes!

P.S. Forgot to mention - My personality is one to jump in headfirst, so in I go! I’m sincerely appreciative of any advice / wisdom y’all have to offer!

Welcome, you sort of remind me of myself when I joined. A few things-

1. Grading is not a science, it's more like art ...mixed with gambling.

2. If spending serious money like some of the coins you've shown, I'd stick with stickered coins for a while to give you a baseline, then you can venture out a bit without financial peril.

3. Either collect by type, or stick to the high demand series. I'd go with type collecting though, spread out your eggs in case a couple turn rotten.

AND (this ones important)

Go to a coin show. Any coin show. Look at coins, all of them. When lot viewing, cover up the label and try to guess the grade for each coin before you look at the grade. Summer Seminar grading class is highly recommended, but I cant stress enough that looking at as many coins as possible is the best way to fast track your learning. Best of luck, you can pm me anytime if you want a second set of eyes.

I certainly advocate looking at a lot of coins. But I feel that (if possible) it would be much more educational if you could find a highly knowledgeable collector or dealer to review coins with you and provide feedback - even if it’s a smaller number of coins than you’d view on your own.

PeakRarities

@MFeld said:

@PeakRarities said:

@Theharsh98 said:

@ChrisH821 said:
"Just getting into coins" but has many thousands of dollars in just three coins... How is this?
You seem to be simultaneously in the "deep end" and the "kiddie pool", so to speak.
No offense intended here, but this seems highly unusual.
Sorry, forgot to answer your question, CAC does seem to be quite harsh in grading. I have managed to get one upgrade in a crossover from PCGS, a PR65 to PR65+ on a nickel that I thought should grade PR66, a couple of others crossed at grade but less than 50%.

You’ve never found yourself up at 2:00AM with a bottle of wine, a credit card, and and an irrational hatred for “MorganMan26” bidding against you on an auction site?

Lol, half kidding, but fair question. I am definitely in both pools, ha! I have a tendency to burn through hobbies like wildfire, and I’ve sincerely enjoyed coins - the hunt, the beauty, etc., even if only over the past few months.

So, I was like “well, maybe I’ll stick with a hobby if I make it an investment too”, and so far it’s working, LOL! I mean hey, being a 26yo with those coins is pretty fun to share too, and blessed with a career that allows that flexibility. Nonetheless, still learning the ropes!

P.S. Forgot to mention - My personality is one to jump in headfirst, so in I go! I’m sincerely appreciative of any advice / wisdom y’all have to offer!

Welcome, you sort of remind me of myself when I joined. A few things-

1. Grading is not a science, it's more like art ...mixed with gambling.

2. If spending serious money like some of the coins you've shown, I'd stick with stickered coins for a while to give you a baseline, then you can venture out a bit without financial peril.

3. Either collect by type, or stick to the high demand series. I'd go with type collecting though, spread out your eggs in case a couple turn rotten.

AND (this ones important)

Go to a coin show. Any coin show. Look at coins, all of them. When lot viewing, cover up the label and try to guess the grade for each coin before you look at the grade. Summer Seminar grading class is highly recommended, but I cant stress enough that looking at as many coins as possible is the best way to fast track your learning. Best of luck, you can pm me anytime if you want a second set of eyes.

I certainly advocate looking at a lot of coins. But I feel that (if possible) it would be much more educational if you could find a highly knowledgeable collector or dealer to review coins with you and provide feedback - even if it’s a smaller number of coins than you’d view on your own.

Of course, I should have noted that was attempting to offer additional advice to what was already posted. Feedback from a highly knowledgeable source is invaluable during the "training wheels" phase of one's collecting journey.

PeakRarities

@Theharsh98 - When I was starting to buy more expensive coins, I would often lean on @mfeld's opinion of lots in Heritage auctions. Someone like Mark will give it to you straight without any nonsense, and he will probably talk you out of many more coins than he will endorse. There are not many like him anymore, but with patience and proper guidance, you will start to recognize real quality and it will be worth the wait.