@lahmejoon said: @Yankees70, I didn't interpret @badhop55 making a direct comparison to Jordan in that he's saying she is on his level from a skill perspective, but rather from a "air" or excitement level - someone so skilled relative to his/her sport that it brings eyes and more interest to the sport. Jordan didn't transform the league overnight either, but certainly what he was doing in the Bird/Magic era brought more excitement. Time will tell what CC's impact will be on the success of the WNBA, but the interest has certainly increased.
I agree with you he was not comparing them in skill. My comments stand. There's no comparison between the two in anyway. Yes the interest has increased. In comparison the student who usually gets F's on his tests just got a D.
I think the this argument that there's "no comparison" there is not reasonable. There is a significant comparison in that both were a catalyst for growth and interest in their respective leagues. "were". We've been discussing this finer point for so long that it's already past-tense. They're comparable. This is also according to Jordan himself, who has referred to Clark as 'a transformative presence and highlighting her potential to elevate women's basketball'. I think we need to put this point to bed.
{quod erat demonstrandum}
While it wouldn't serve your point regarding legitimacy, I also think you could have chosen a better example to illustrate your point. Choosing to compare outcomes is pretty abstract.
There's still a lot of work the WNBA needs to do before it becomes a legit mainstream sport that is followed by most sports fans. The first thing they need to do is clean up their image. If they don't you can have 10 Clark's and the league will continue to lose money and be ignored by sports fans.
While something like a strike or boycott could certainly hurt the league I really don't see any of the image issues you're likely referring to being a factor. I would expect that the people who think this is an issue are going to be pretty anti-WNBA already so I wouldn't really factor that opinion in from a business perspective.
Do you think saying horrible things about our country and dumping on millions of Americans won't bother people? Even the NFL lost millions of viewers when ample NFL players were taking a knee and making political comments. The NFL heads put an end to this madness after they saw the results. There's lots of WNBA players still saying this garbage and if you think this mainly bothers just people who already dislike the WNBA that's not true. It caused a ratings drop even in the NFL which should tell anyone that it will do the same for any sport that engages in it.
Times have changed. Most people are to busy with work and their families to have time to watch sports. When they do watch most will watch the best athletes play in the best sports available to watch, and a lot will turn the channel if they see some athlete crap all over what they believe in. The people running the WNBA need to fix this or they can get 10 more Clark's in the league and it will remain a ratings and money loser for another decade.
I'm not really aware of what these horrible things are or why it's not OK for WNBA stars to have opinions or for NFL players to kneel during the National Anthem. Our Country was founded as a result of protest, or have we forgotten? The blood that's been spilt has been for that right. You might disagree with their reasons, but support their right. Suppressing that is precisely the "Tyranny of the Majority" that Toqueville warned of in Democracy in America almost 200 years ago.
People can say whatever they want and can take a knee if they want. That's not the issue. The issue is it loses millions of potential viewers which is why politics should be avoided in sports. My parents operated and owned a 50's Diner from 1986-1992. I worked there the entire 6 years and we had two rules: Never talk politics and religion with the customers or employees. Of course we had the right to say anything we wanted but it would result in losing a lot of customers.
The image of the WNBA has chased away millions of potential viewers - that's the issue. Nobody is saying they don't have a right to say what they believe in. Hope that makes sense to you.
@Yankees70 said:
I'm not really aware of what these horrible things are or why it's not OK for WNBA stars to have opinions or for NFL players to kneel during the National Anthem. Our Country was founded as a result of protest, or have we forgotten? The blood that's been spilt has been for that right. You might disagree with their reasons, but support their right. Suppressing that is precisely the "Tyranny of the Majority" that Toqueville warned of in Democracy in America almost 200 years ago.
People can say whatever they want and can take a knee if they want. That's not the issue. The issue is it loses millions of potential viewers which is why politics should be avoided in sports. My parents operated and owned a 50's Diner from 1986-1992. I worked there the entire 6 years and we had two rules: Never talk politics and religion with the customers or employees. Of course we had the right to say anything we wanted but it would result in losing a lot of customers.
The image of the WNBA has chased away millions of potential viewers - that's the issue. Nobody is saying they don't have a right to say what they believe in. Hope that makes sense to you.
Millions of potential viewers have decided to not watch the WNBA because some players said some things that they disagree with politically? Then I think they should boycott the product or do whatever causes them the least stress. I still challenge that any of these deep-thinkers constitute a significant overlap with the set of potential WNBA viewers. No, anyone who has a problem with that needs some introspective therapy, because understanding that some people don't have the same perspective on America is just what is Liberty refers to.
When you say talking about politics do you mean talking about things that affect a person's life, liberty, or happiness? Because I don't really hear people talking about politics, as in the activities of a political system... I hear people talking about the things that impact their lives. More often than not, boiled down into some nonsensical headline.... devoid of substance and without potential for dialogue. I think the better rule is to avoid stupidity at the expense of conversation.
Differences in tax policy, or should we fund Ukraine, or foreign affairs is not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about saying our country is an evil racist nation that needs to be blown up and started over. Or that police officers are racists, or that millions of people who vote a certain way are Nazi's. I can give you a bunch of exact quotes from WNBA players if you want. Once again they have the right to say anything they want - the issue is this is bad for business and they will lose a lot of potential viewers.
Don't you think that a league that loses millions every year should be doing everything they can to bring in new viewers? If so is crapping on yes, a million potential viewers a good idea? Have you noticed that the NFL has become patriotic again. Why do you think that has happened?
@Yankees70 said:
There's a better chance the WNBA remains a failed league that loses millions every year than a league that gains steady popularity, becomes main stream, and starts making consistent profits.
Well, they haven't even played a game yet and they've already increased their revenue by $166m over last year thanks to their TV contract.
Ask yourself where are the new millions of fans going to come from?
It would appear they're already here given that media giants are willing to pay them $200m a year to broadcast their games.
Years ago most people did not like or understand modern art but it has proven to have meaning, it's there to embraced, and it is not to be mocked. For someone to be so smugly sure on one's taste to the point of denying a possibility of another persons taste is close minded.
Successful coin BST transactions with Gerard and segoja.
Successful card BST transactions with cbcnow, brogurt, gstarling, Bravesfan 007, and rajah 424.
@Cakes said:
Years ago most people did not like or understand modern art but it has proven to have meaning, it's there to embraced, and it is not to be mocked. For someone to be so smugly sure on one's taste to the point of denying a possibility of another persons taste is close minded.
Dude people are not closed minded who disagree with me and the data. They are free to have a different opinion.
@Cakes said:
Years ago most people did not like or understand modern art but it has proven to have meaning, it's there to embraced, and it is not to be mocked. For someone to be so smugly sure on one's taste to the point of denying a possibility of another persons taste is close minded.
Dude people are not closed minded who disagree with me and the data. They are free to have a different opinion.
The data, you would have to have been living under a rock for the last two years to not realize that Caitlin Clark is one of the most popular athletes in the United States. Bashing the WNBA will not change that.
Her cards are gold, buy and hold a couple and thank her later.
Successful coin BST transactions with Gerard and segoja.
Successful card BST transactions with cbcnow, brogurt, gstarling, Bravesfan 007, and rajah 424.
@Cakes said:
Years ago most people did not like or understand modern art but it has proven to have meaning, it's there to embraced, and it is not to be mocked. For someone to be so smugly sure on one's taste to the point of denying a possibility of another persons taste is close minded.
Dude people are not closed minded who disagree with me and the data. They are free to have a different opinion.
The data, you would have to have been living under a rock for the last two years to not realize that Caitlin Clark is one of the most popular athletes in the United States. Bashing the WNBA will not change that.
Her cards are gold, buy and hold a couple and thank her later.
LOL when did I say Clark is not popular? I need to stop commenting in this thread - some of you take different opinions like I'm attacking your lady. I have said ample times that the league could become popular and make a profit but I don't see any data that indicates this will happen. If you like the WNBA good for you. Go to the games and watch the games on TV. I could care less if the league becomes popular or remains a fringe league that loses millions every year.
Regarding the data - once again. The league has lost millions every year it has existed. If the league was not funded and supported by the NBA it would have folded over a decade ago. These are all facts. Maybe things will change one day. Its possible. Seems like its not me who has a closed mind regarding the WNBA.
@Cakes said:
Years ago most people did not like or understand modern art but it has proven to have meaning, it's there to embraced, and it is not to be mocked. For someone to be so smugly sure on one's taste to the point of denying a possibility of another persons taste is close minded.
Dude people are not closed minded who disagree with me and the data. They are free to have a different opinion.
The data, you would have to have been living under a rock for the last two years to not realize that Caitlin Clark is one of the most popular athletes in the United States. Bashing the WNBA will not change that.
Her cards are gold, buy and hold a couple and thank her later.
LOL when did I say Clark is not popular? I need to stop commenting in this thread - some of you take different opinions like I'm attacking your lady. I have said ample times that the league could become popular and make a profit but I don't see any data that indicates this will happen. If you like the WNBA good for you. Go to the games and watch the games on TV. I could care less if the league becomes popular or remains a fringe league that loses millions every year.
Regarding the data - once again. The league has lost millions every year it has existed. If the league was not funded and supported by the NBA it would have folded over a decade ago. These are all facts. Maybe things will change one day. Its possible. Seems like its not me who has a closed mind regarding the WNBA.
The OP asked " I am interested in the group thoughts on the three of these cards and which one would be the best to hold onto and which ones would be best to move now and why? " All 3 cards are Clark's. Somehow you decided to add Mantle into the thread about CC. I am pretty sure her popularity is a factor in why she sells out arenas everywhere. It's also a reason why she is cardboard gold and he should hold or buy any CC cards.
Maybe you should stop commenting, you let the WNBA get into your head.
Successful coin BST transactions with Gerard and segoja.
Successful card BST transactions with cbcnow, brogurt, gstarling, Bravesfan 007, and rajah 424.
@Cakes said:
Years ago most people did not like or understand modern art but it has proven to have meaning, it's there to embraced, and it is not to be mocked. For someone to be so smugly sure on one's taste to the point of denying a possibility of another persons taste is close minded.
Dude people are not closed minded who disagree with me and the data. They are free to have a different opinion.
The data, you would have to have been living under a rock for the last two years to not realize that Caitlin Clark is one of the most popular athletes in the United States. Bashing the WNBA will not change that.
Her cards are gold, buy and hold a couple and thank her later.
LOL when did I say Clark is not popular? I need to stop commenting in this thread - some of you take different opinions like I'm attacking your lady. I have said ample times that the league could become popular and make a profit but I don't see any data that indicates this will happen. If you like the WNBA good for you. Go to the games and watch the games on TV. I could care less if the league becomes popular or remains a fringe league that loses millions every year.
Regarding the data - once again. The league has lost millions every year it has existed. If the league was not funded and supported by the NBA it would have folded over a decade ago. These are all facts. Maybe things will change one day. Its possible. Seems like its not me who has a closed mind regarding the WNBA.
The OP asked " I am interested in the group thoughts on the three of these cards and which one would be the best to hold onto and which ones would be best to move now and why? " All 3 cards are Clark's. Somehow you decided to add Mantle into the thread about CC. I am pretty sure her popularity is a factor in why she sells out arenas everywhere. It's also a reason why she is cardboard gold and he should hold or buy any CC cards.
Maybe you should stop commenting, you let the WNBA get into your head.
C'mon, man. The unintentional comedy of it all is off the charts. To the moon. Very enjoyable.
@Cakes said:
Years ago most people did not like or understand modern art but it has proven to have meaning, it's there to embraced, and it is not to be mocked. For someone to be so smugly sure on one's taste to the point of denying a possibility of another persons taste is close minded.
Dude people are not closed minded who disagree with me and the data. They are free to have a different opinion.
The data, you would have to have been living under a rock for the last two years to not realize that Caitlin Clark is one of the most popular athletes in the United States. Bashing the WNBA will not change that.
Her cards are gold, buy and hold a couple and thank her later.
LOL when did I say Clark is not popular? I need to stop commenting in this thread - some of you take different opinions like I'm attacking your lady. I have said ample times that the league could become popular and make a profit but I don't see any data that indicates this will happen. If you like the WNBA good for you. Go to the games and watch the games on TV. I could care less if the league becomes popular or remains a fringe league that loses millions every year.
Regarding the data - once again. The league has lost millions every year it has existed. If the league was not funded and supported by the NBA it would have folded over a decade ago. These are all facts. Maybe things will change one day. Its possible. Seems like its not me who has a closed mind regarding the WNBA.
The OP asked " I am interested in the group thoughts on the three of these cards and which one would be the best to hold onto and which ones would be best to move now and why? " All 3 cards are Clark's. Somehow you decided to add Mantle into the thread about CC. I am pretty sure her popularity is a factor in why she sells out arenas everywhere. It's also a reason why she is cardboard gold and he should hold or buy any CC cards.
Maybe you should stop commenting, you let the WNBA get into your head.
The OP asked what cards to hold or keep and my opinion is to sell all of them especially if he's considering holding them for the long term. I gave ample reasons why I feel this way.
The WNBA is the last thing in my head. In fact I have rarely thought about it besides when I'm reading this message board.
Listen I get it. Some of you have money invested in Clark cards and you don't want to hear any opinions that think this is a bad investment for the long term, but this is a message board about sports cards. If someone can't deal with opposing opinions then maybe they should not be reading it.
If some of you want to purchase WNBA cards good for you. Collect what you want. I'm sure the league will become a huge success. Millions of new women will start watching and attending games instead of going out with their families and friends. Those of you who are married will also get a huge break. Instead of having to go out with your lady shopping and to her friends house you can now stay home and relax as your lady will be watching 4-5 hours of WNBA games every Saturday and Sunday. Plus millions of hard core sports duds who enjoy watching 6 hours of football every Saturday and Sunday, I'm sure they will also start watching many hours of WNBA games each week. After all men have NEVER been visual creatures. They will be happy to watch a lousy brand of hoops being played by extremely attractive ladies. After all everyone knows the best looking women around are WNBA players.
The future is bright, you should be happy. I have been convinced. The previous two decades of the WNBA failing miserably and losing money were all anomalies. I highly suggest collectors sell all of their vintage high grade superstar cards, all of their unopened vintage wax boxes and vending boxes and put all that money into WNBA cards. What could possibly go wrong?
With Caitlin, I feel like a serious issue may be has the card market for her gotten in front of its skis which is such a typical thing in the sports card world and maybe any type of trading cards. At first I had opinions of the cards that were in line with experiences with other sports cards I collect. I dont watch the WNBA and not because they are women and I dont like their version of the sport. I dont watch the NBA either. I love college basketball. Not pro. But based on this discussion did a Caitlin sold search on eBay and my jaw was on the floor. The prices seem to be factoring in that she will be the most popular and successful WNBA player ever and she will put women's basketball in a place similar to how Tiger Woods put golf in a place where previously there was very mild interest. And you can compare the two. Does not mean Caitlin Clark would win a fist fight with Tiger Woods to say she may be to the WNBA what he was to golf. Just an analogy the same way you can say Coca-Cola is to soda what Wayne Gretzky was to hockey. They dont have compete.
So the issue may be are the expectations too high with the cards. How much more upside is there? If she does follow a Tiger path and makes people care much more about the sport and becomes or stays one of the biggest celebrities in sports, then okay probably some upside. But think its kind of like Mike Trout years ago and Aaron Judge late last year, is there a ton of upside if the cards have done so well and the players have done so well. What do they have to do to surpass expectations? A ton. Which is tough when the bar is so high.
In terms of the NFL being more patriotic, its partly because the government used your tax dollars to pay the NFL to reinforce patriotic themes. There have been articles written about this. Possibly for military recruiting. Cant say for sure. Somebody would have to ask them. Maybe minus that it still works with the average NFL fan being more patriotic than some other groups of people or fans.
Is it easy to believe that WNBA fans may see the world in a different way than the average NFL fan? I think so. Can imagine there are unpatriotic WNBA players and unpatriotic WNBA fans and its a fit. The players maybe are saying things that their fans agree with even though the average NFL fan may feel different. They may not pull in much of the NFL fan base and think it could still work. Women are a large part of the population. If they would watch women's sports more often it could be a game changer.
@Cakes said:
Years ago most people did not like or understand modern art but it has proven to have meaning, it's there to embraced, and it is not to be mocked. For someone to be so smugly sure on one's taste to the point of denying a possibility of another persons taste is close minded.
Dude people are not closed minded who disagree with me and the data. They are free to have a different opinion.
The data, you would have to have been living under a rock for the last two years to not realize that Caitlin Clark is one of the most popular athletes in the United States. Bashing the WNBA will not change that.
Her cards are gold, buy and hold a couple and thank her later.
LOL when did I say Clark is not popular? I need to stop commenting in this thread.
That is the first thing you have said in this entire thread I agree with.
Good Lord man, can't the other folks just have one thread regarding Caitlin Clark Trading Cards without you hijacking it for your own agenda?
BTW I say this as someone who thinks all Modern cards are for suckers, but was curious to read about her trading cards and not what I and many perceive to be your private/personal vendetta.
Tell you what simply don't reply to this comment nor weigh in again on this thread and we're Cool as I respect those who take the high road.
It's the singer not the song - Peter Townshend (1972)
@Yankees70 said:
I lost you when you compared Amazon to the WNBA. Talk about Bizarro world thinking. Have a good day guys. Enjoy what you enjoy.
That's a disingenuous stance as you're ignoring the comparison I'm making to focus on a separate, and obvious, difference. While it's good that you recognize the trap you're in, it's best to confront your own opinions rather than scuttle a very general and consistent aspect of businesses out the window because Amazon and the WNBA are so completely different in so many other ways.
You have a habit of telling me I'm ignoring your comments. or being disingenuous, I'm not. I completely disagree with your thinking on this subject and I'm not in any trap. There you go assuming things again.
@Cakes said:
Years ago most people did not like or understand modern art but it has proven to have meaning, it's there to embraced, and it is not to be mocked. For someone to be so smugly sure on one's taste to the point of denying a possibility of another persons taste is close minded.
Dude people are not closed minded who disagree with me and the data. They are free to have a different opinion.
The data, you would have to have been living under a rock for the last two years to not realize that Caitlin Clark is one of the most popular athletes in the United States. Bashing the WNBA will not change that.
Her cards are gold, buy and hold a couple and thank her later.
LOL when did I say Clark is not popular? I need to stop commenting in this thread.
That is the first thing you have said in this entire thread I agree with.
Good Lord man, can't the other folks just have one thread regarding Caitlin Clark Trading Cards without you hijacking it for your own agenda?
BTW I say this as someone who thinks all Modern cards are for suckers, but was curious to read about her trading cards and not what I and many perceive to be your private/personal vendetta.
Tell you what simply don't reply to this comment nor weigh in again on this thread and we're Cool as I respect those who take the high road.
Hijacking it for my own agenda? The OP asked for opinions on Clark cards. I gave my opinion and gave many reasons why I feel this way. I have no agenda with the WNBA. I could care less about the league. If the OP had said look what I just bought and did not ask for an opinion on what cards to sell and keep I never would have said anything. If collectors want to collect WNBA cards good for them. I only care about big things in my life: My family, my job, my friends, my religion, what's happening in my community and so on. I could care less what anyone collects or what their opinion is about the WNBA. It seems a lot of you care about this issue, not me. I'm not the one getting upset because someone has a different opinion.
First thing you agreed with? So you disagree that the WNBA has lost millions every year it has existed?
Now don't respond to me unless you have data/facts of why I'm wrong meaning no questions or personal attacks and I'm glad to put this issue to rest.
For a guy that doesn’t care about the WNBA you sure are vested in talking about it. First person to respond and leading the league in WNBA posts sure screams ‘no interest’.
@80sOPC said:
For a guy that doesn’t care about the WNBA you sure are vested in talking about it. First person to respond and leading the league in WNBA posts sure screams ‘no interest’.
I read every new thread that is posted on the board and sometimes I make a comment. This is only the second thread about the WNBA that I have commented on. I'm not vested in the league - I don't care about it but when posters ask me a question or make a comment about me of course I'm going to respond. When the questions/comments stop I will not post on this thread again.
I just noticed that the other Clark thread which was dead for three months has gone back to the top of the message board. So maybe its not me who has a vested interest.
@Yankees70 said:
I lost you when you compared Amazon to the WNBA. Talk about Bizarro world thinking. Have a good day guys. Enjoy what you enjoy.
That's a disingenuous stance as you're ignoring the comparison I'm making to focus on a separate, and obvious, difference. While it's good that you recognize the trap you're in, it's best to confront your own opinions rather than scuttle a very general and consistent aspect of businesses out the window because Amazon and the WNBA are so completely different in so many other ways.
You have a habit of telling me I'm ignoring your comments. or being disingenuous, I'm not. I completely disagree with your thinking on this subject and I'm not in any trap. There you go assuming things again.
Would absolutely love to have some information to allow me to justify being wrong about those assumptions. Can’t be right unless you were once wrong. Ya know.
The only person who knows if I'm ignoring your comments or being disingenuous is me. Just like the only person who knows if you are doing the same is you. I'm telling you man to man I'm not.
We disagree on this issue and that's fine. I think the WNBA will continue to lose money and not become a mainstream popular league. I gave ample reasons why I feel this way and they are supported with data. I have said ample times that things could change one day and the league could become popular. My mind is wide open and maybe I could be proven to be wrong one day. Maybe some of you can admit the same thing: That I could be spot on about the league. Especially since the league has been a huge failure for over two decades.
@Yankees70 said:
I lost you when you compared Amazon to the WNBA. Talk about Bizarro world thinking. Have a good day guys. Enjoy what you enjoy.
That's a disingenuous stance as you're ignoring the comparison I'm making to focus on a separate, and obvious, difference. While it's good that you recognize the trap you're in, it's best to confront your own opinions rather than scuttle a very general and consistent aspect of businesses out the window because Amazon and the WNBA are so completely different in so many other ways.
You have a habit of telling me I'm ignoring your comments. or being disingenuous, I'm not. I completely disagree with your thinking on this subject and I'm not in any trap. There you go assuming things again.
Would absolutely love to have some information to allow me to justify being wrong about those assumptions. Can’t be right unless you were once wrong. Ya know.
The only person who knows if I'm ignoring your comments or being disingenuous is me. Just like the only person who knows if you are doing the same is you. I'm telling you man to man I'm not.
We disagree on this issue and that's fine. I think the WNBA will continue to lose money and not become a mainstream popular league. I gave ample reasons why I feel this way and they are supported with data. I have said ample times that things could change one day and the league could become popular. My mind is wide open and maybe I could be proven to be wrong one day. Maybe some of you can admit the same thing: That I could be spot on about the league. Especially since the league has been a huge failure for over two decades.
I said your dismissal of my example relating the investing aspect of business instantiation was disingenuous. What is your rationale for dismissing the example? Without any it’s disingenuous whether you know it or not then.
I don't agree with your comments and don't think what you're saying regarding the WNBA is relevant. I'm sure you disagree with some of my comments. It does not mean you are trapped or being disingenuous. We disagree dude. No big thing. I'm sure we disagree about a lot of things which again is fine. Have a good day.
I don't agree with your comments and don't think what you're saying regarding the WNBA is relevant. I'm sure you disagree with some of my comments. It does not mean you are trapped or being disingenuous. We disagree dude. No big thing. I'm sure we disagree about a lot of things which again is fine. Have a good day.
Based on what you've said here I don't think you understood what I meant.
So I was saying that businesses invest to build their market. While all businesses are different, this is a very common thing. Some take longer than others. It's so common that you might struggle to find a Fortune 500 company that didn't require investment to stay in business.
Because of this I'm saying it's an unconvincing argument. I want to be convinced. I want to be proven wrong. My thesis dismantled and laid bare to be mocked by all.
Anyways. I am only pointing out an argument that doesn't have any bite as it's hardly the road less traveled.
When I said that was a disingenuous answer, the assumption I was making is that you know what I was comparing. Instead of articulating why you thought it was a ridiculous comparison - other than the implication that says simply; one is Amazon and the other is the WNBA - which technically the WNBA is an organizing body and the ownership of the WNBA is a subset of owners from the NBA and the entity that is the NBA itself. Which I get they are different, but not in the specific way that I was mentioning.
To state that isn't relevant is really no different than evoking shock at the original comparison.
Further, it's more likely than not that the WNBA was profitable the past few years. In 2023 their revenue was close to $200M which is likely more than their operating costs. That was on the back of $60M of media revenue. With that number now closer to $200M itself...
I enjoy debates about these things so don't feel like you're doing me any harm by disagreeing. Nothing else challenges our perspectives like disagreement, and it would be a terrible thing if we just let each-other walk around with the wrong lyrics to the song. What I mean is. This is a safe space and you can tell me why you think my comparison is irrelevant. Maybe it is, but I can't take your word for it.
Dude telling a person they don't understand or don't get it is not the way to have people support you. Its talking down to people. Once again I understand your position and disagree with it.
My opinions on the WNBA are based on two decades of data. I see zero evidence that things will change this decade. Still, I would never tell anyone that if they only understood the data they would support my position.
Lots of money being put into Clark cards. She has elevated that league to heights nobody thought it could get to. At this time, it is almost entirely Caitlin Clark that is causing the league to gain in attendance and popularity.
As for her cards, she has the caveat of all young players in other sports of course.
The other caveat being brought up is the long term popularity of the league. At this point, with Clark in the league I don't think the near long term will be a problem for her cards. As long as she is playing and doing well then her cards will follow regardless of the financial health of the league(since it is being backed by the NBA and really isn't a risk of folding).
However, when she retires, there is going to need to be a torch passed to other superstars to fill that void to keep the league attendance and viewership to stay on the level it is with Clark playing. Otherwise, there is a risk that there will not be enough new fans to fill the void in buying Clark cards in the long term future when she is retired and out of the collective minds of society. Other leagues do not have that problem where their league is being propped up by just one player...they just reload a new generation of popular players. The WNBA has to get to that ability to 'reload'...and I believe it is a factor in the long long term health of Clark cards.
I don't agree with your comments and don't think what you're saying regarding the WNBA is relevant. I'm sure you disagree with some of my comments. It does not mean you are trapped or being disingenuous. We disagree dude. No big thing. I'm sure we disagree about a lot of things which again is fine. Have a good day.
Based on what you've said here I don't think you understood what I meant.
So I was saying that businesses invest to build their market. While all businesses are different, this is a very common thing. Some take longer than others. It's so common that you might struggle to find a Fortune 500 company that didn't require investment to stay in business.
Because of this I'm saying it's an unconvincing argument. I want to be convinced. I want to be proven wrong. My thesis dismantled and laid bare to be mocked by all.
Anyways. I am only pointing out an argument that doesn't have any bite as it's hardly the road less traveled.
When I said that was a disingenuous answer, the assumption I was making is that you know what I was comparing. Instead of articulating why you thought it was a ridiculous comparison - other than the implication that says simply; one is Amazon and the other is the WNBA - which technically the WNBA is an organizing body and the ownership of the WNBA is a subset of owners from the NBA and the entity that is the NBA itself. Which I get they are different, but not in the specific way that I was mentioning.
To state that isn't relevant is really no different than evoking shock at the original comparison.
Further, it's more likely than not that the WNBA was profitable the past few years. In 2023 their revenue was close to $200M which is likely more than their operating costs. That was on the back of $60M of media revenue. With that number now closer to $200M itself...
I enjoy debates about these things so don't feel like you're doing me any harm by disagreeing. Nothing else challenges our perspectives like disagreement, and it would be a terrible thing if we just let each-other walk around with the wrong lyrics to the song. What I mean is. This is a safe space and you can tell me why you think my comparison is irrelevant. Maybe it is, but I can't take your word for it.
Dude telling a person they don't understand or don't get it is not the way to have people support you. Its talking down to people. Once again I understand your position and disagree with it.
My opinions on tbe WNBA are based on two decades of data. I see zero evidence that things will change this decade. Still, I would never tell anyone that if they only understood the data they would support my position.
Based on what you’re saying it really appears you don’t. This isn’t talking down to you for me to say I think we’re not on the same page. This seems more and more like deflection and avoidance. Now we’re talking about talking while at any point you could present your reasoning. Trying to flip this weird dilemma you have around on me is immature.
LOL ok whatever you say. Its obvious what you're trying to do and it won't work with me. I have seen people try to pull this tactic many times in my life but never on a sports card message board. This is a first. If you want to discuss legit reasons why the WNBA could become popular one day I'm all ears.
@1948_Swell_Robinson said:
Lots of money being put into Clark cards. She has elevated that league to heights nobody thought it could get to. At this time, it is almost entirely Caitlin Clark that is causing the league to gain in attendance and popularity.
As for her cards, she has the caveat of all young players in other sports of course.
The other caveat being brought up is the long term popularity of the league. At this point, with Clark in the league I don't think the near long term will be a problem for her cards. As long as she is playing and doing well then her cards will follow regardless of the financial health of the league(since it is being backed by the NBA and really isn't a risk of folding).
However, when she retires, there is going to need to be a torch passed to other superstars to fill that void to keep the league attendance and viewership to stay on the level it is with Clark playing. Otherwise, there is a risk that there will not be enough new fans to fill the void in buying Clark cards in the long term future when she is retired and out of the collective minds of society. Other leagues do not have that problem where their league is being propped up by just one player...they just reload a new generation of popular players. The WNBA has to get to that ability to 'reload'...and I believe it is a factor in the long long term health of Clark cards.
I have no idea if the WNBA will or won't.
Top notch response, well done. No mudslinging, no talking down to people, very nice.
If you have been collecting for a long time, you have seen a lot of things that looked like a bust turn around and be gold. it's often hard to say what will be the next big thing at the time though.
Basketball and football cards in general were less popular. Star sets of the early-mid 80s, 86/87 Fleer. They took time to blossom. Hockey could be tossed in there as well. Old hobby catalogs support this, although I am sure there were people speculating from the start on just about everything. Sometimes it paid off, often it did not. Heck, just about any oddball sport has seen a crazy rise in value from when it was released for certain issues. Golf, tennis, soccer, boxing, etc.
Autographs issued in the early days have spiked. Now they are sometimes 1/pack, but the early chase autos are insanely expensive and few probably saw that coming.
I always have and continue to buy what I like and enjoy collecting. The expected future value is moot for me. I have missed out on some really good stuff, but have things that have escalated in value that I would have not believed at the time I obtained them.
I collect Steve Garvey, Dodgers and signed cards. Collector since 1978.
Comments
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Do you think saying horrible things about our country and dumping on millions of Americans won't bother people? Even the NFL lost millions of viewers when ample NFL players were taking a knee and making political comments. The NFL heads put an end to this madness after they saw the results. There's lots of WNBA players still saying this garbage and if you think this mainly bothers just people who already dislike the WNBA that's not true. It caused a ratings drop even in the NFL which should tell anyone that it will do the same for any sport that engages in it.
Times have changed. Most people are to busy with work and their families to have time to watch sports. When they do watch most will watch the best athletes play in the best sports available to watch, and a lot will turn the channel if they see some athlete crap all over what they believe in. The people running the WNBA need to fix this or they can get 10 more Clark's in the league and it will remain a ratings and money loser for another decade.
c
I'm not really aware of what these horrible things are or why it's not OK for WNBA stars to have opinions or for NFL players to kneel during the National Anthem. Our Country was founded as a result of protest, or have we forgotten? The blood that's been spilt has been for that right. You might disagree with their reasons, but support their right. Suppressing that is precisely the "Tyranny of the Majority" that Toqueville warned of in Democracy in America almost 200 years ago.
People can say whatever they want and can take a knee if they want. That's not the issue. The issue is it loses millions of potential viewers which is why politics should be avoided in sports. My parents operated and owned a 50's Diner from 1986-1992. I worked there the entire 6 years and we had two rules: Never talk politics and religion with the customers or employees. Of course we had the right to say anything we wanted but it would result in losing a lot of customers.
The image of the WNBA has chased away millions of potential viewers - that's the issue. Nobody is saying they don't have a right to say what they believe in. Hope that makes sense to you.
c
Differences in tax policy, or should we fund Ukraine, or foreign affairs is not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about saying our country is an evil racist nation that needs to be blown up and started over. Or that police officers are racists, or that millions of people who vote a certain way are Nazi's. I can give you a bunch of exact quotes from WNBA players if you want. Once again they have the right to say anything they want - the issue is this is bad for business and they will lose a lot of potential viewers.
Don't you think that a league that loses millions every year should be doing everything they can to bring in new viewers? If so is crapping on yes, a million potential viewers a good idea? Have you noticed that the NFL has become patriotic again. Why do you think that has happened?
c
Is it ironic that the NFL has become more patriotic while the Patriots have been circling the drain? Just wondering.
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Well, they haven't even played a game yet and they've already increased their revenue by $166m over last year thanks to their TV contract.
It would appear they're already here given that media giants are willing to pay them $200m a year to broadcast their games.
Years ago most people did not like or understand modern art but it has proven to have meaning, it's there to embraced, and it is not to be mocked. For someone to be so smugly sure on one's taste to the point of denying a possibility of another persons taste is close minded.
Successful card BST transactions with cbcnow, brogurt, gstarling, Bravesfan 007, and rajah 424.
Dude people are not closed minded who disagree with me and the data. They are free to have a different opinion.
The data, you would have to have been living under a rock for the last two years to not realize that Caitlin Clark is one of the most popular athletes in the United States. Bashing the WNBA will not change that.
Her cards are gold, buy and hold a couple and thank her later.
Successful card BST transactions with cbcnow, brogurt, gstarling, Bravesfan 007, and rajah 424.
LOL when did I say Clark is not popular? I need to stop commenting in this thread - some of you take different opinions like I'm attacking your lady. I have said ample times that the league could become popular and make a profit but I don't see any data that indicates this will happen. If you like the WNBA good for you. Go to the games and watch the games on TV. I could care less if the league becomes popular or remains a fringe league that loses millions every year.
Regarding the data - once again. The league has lost millions every year it has existed. If the league was not funded and supported by the NBA it would have folded over a decade ago. These are all facts. Maybe things will change one day. Its possible. Seems like its not me who has a closed mind regarding the WNBA.
"I need to stop commenting in this thread"
Promise?
The OP asked " I am interested in the group thoughts on the three of these cards and which one would be the best to hold onto and which ones would be best to move now and why? " All 3 cards are Clark's. Somehow you decided to add Mantle into the thread about CC. I am pretty sure her popularity is a factor in why she sells out arenas everywhere. It's also a reason why she is cardboard gold and he should hold or buy any CC cards.
Maybe you should stop commenting, you let the WNBA get into your head.
Successful card BST transactions with cbcnow, brogurt, gstarling, Bravesfan 007, and rajah 424.
C'mon, man. The unintentional comedy of it all is off the charts. To the moon. Very enjoyable.
L.M.A.O.
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The OP asked what cards to hold or keep and my opinion is to sell all of them especially if he's considering holding them for the long term. I gave ample reasons why I feel this way.
The WNBA is the last thing in my head. In fact I have rarely thought about it besides when I'm reading this message board.
Listen I get it. Some of you have money invested in Clark cards and you don't want to hear any opinions that think this is a bad investment for the long term, but this is a message board about sports cards. If someone can't deal with opposing opinions then maybe they should not be reading it.
If some of you want to purchase WNBA cards good for you. Collect what you want. I'm sure the league will become a huge success. Millions of new women will start watching and attending games instead of going out with their families and friends. Those of you who are married will also get a huge break. Instead of having to go out with your lady shopping and to her friends house you can now stay home and relax as your lady will be watching 4-5 hours of WNBA games every Saturday and Sunday. Plus millions of hard core sports duds who enjoy watching 6 hours of football every Saturday and Sunday, I'm sure they will also start watching many hours of WNBA games each week. After all men have NEVER been visual creatures. They will be happy to watch a lousy brand of hoops being played by extremely attractive ladies. After all everyone knows the best looking women around are WNBA players.
The future is bright, you should be happy. I have been convinced. The previous two decades of the WNBA failing miserably and losing money were all anomalies. I highly suggest collectors sell all of their vintage high grade superstar cards, all of their unopened vintage wax boxes and vending boxes and put all that money into WNBA cards. What could possibly go wrong?
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c
With Caitlin, I feel like a serious issue may be has the card market for her gotten in front of its skis which is such a typical thing in the sports card world and maybe any type of trading cards. At first I had opinions of the cards that were in line with experiences with other sports cards I collect. I dont watch the WNBA and not because they are women and I dont like their version of the sport. I dont watch the NBA either. I love college basketball. Not pro. But based on this discussion did a Caitlin sold search on eBay and my jaw was on the floor. The prices seem to be factoring in that she will be the most popular and successful WNBA player ever and she will put women's basketball in a place similar to how Tiger Woods put golf in a place where previously there was very mild interest. And you can compare the two. Does not mean Caitlin Clark would win a fist fight with Tiger Woods to say she may be to the WNBA what he was to golf. Just an analogy the same way you can say Coca-Cola is to soda what Wayne Gretzky was to hockey. They dont have compete.
So the issue may be are the expectations too high with the cards. How much more upside is there? If she does follow a Tiger path and makes people care much more about the sport and becomes or stays one of the biggest celebrities in sports, then okay probably some upside. But think its kind of like Mike Trout years ago and Aaron Judge late last year, is there a ton of upside if the cards have done so well and the players have done so well. What do they have to do to surpass expectations? A ton. Which is tough when the bar is so high.
I lost you when you compared Amazon to the WNBA. Talk about Bizarro world thinking. Have a good day guys. Enjoy what you enjoy.
In terms of the NFL being more patriotic, its partly because the government used your tax dollars to pay the NFL to reinforce patriotic themes. There have been articles written about this. Possibly for military recruiting. Cant say for sure. Somebody would have to ask them. Maybe minus that it still works with the average NFL fan being more patriotic than some other groups of people or fans.
Is it easy to believe that WNBA fans may see the world in a different way than the average NFL fan? I think so. Can imagine there are unpatriotic WNBA players and unpatriotic WNBA fans and its a fit. The players maybe are saying things that their fans agree with even though the average NFL fan may feel different. They may not pull in much of the NFL fan base and think it could still work. Women are a large part of the population. If they would watch women's sports more often it could be a game changer.
c
That is the first thing you have said in this entire thread I agree with.
Good Lord man, can't the other folks just have one thread regarding Caitlin Clark Trading Cards without you hijacking it for your own agenda?
BTW I say this as someone who thinks all Modern cards are for suckers, but was curious to read about her trading cards and not what I and many perceive to be your private/personal vendetta.
Tell you what simply don't reply to this comment nor weigh in again on this thread and we're Cool as I respect those who take the high road.
It's the singer not the song - Peter Townshend (1972)
You have a habit of telling me I'm ignoring your comments. or being disingenuous, I'm not. I completely disagree with your thinking on this subject and I'm not in any trap. There you go assuming things again.
"BTW I say this as someone who thinks all Modern cards are for suckers..."
All things old were once new.
Hijacking it for my own agenda? The OP asked for opinions on Clark cards. I gave my opinion and gave many reasons why I feel this way. I have no agenda with the WNBA. I could care less about the league. If the OP had said look what I just bought and did not ask for an opinion on what cards to sell and keep I never would have said anything. If collectors want to collect WNBA cards good for them. I only care about big things in my life: My family, my job, my friends, my religion, what's happening in my community and so on. I could care less what anyone collects or what their opinion is about the WNBA. It seems a lot of you care about this issue, not me. I'm not the one getting upset because someone has a different opinion.
First thing you agreed with? So you disagree that the WNBA has lost millions every year it has existed?
Now don't respond to me unless you have data/facts of why I'm wrong meaning no questions or personal attacks and I'm glad to put this issue to rest.
c
For a guy that doesn’t care about the WNBA you sure are vested in talking about it. First person to respond and leading the league in WNBA posts sure screams ‘no interest’.
I read every new thread that is posted on the board and sometimes I make a comment. This is only the second thread about the WNBA that I have commented on. I'm not vested in the league - I don't care about it but when posters ask me a question or make a comment about me of course I'm going to respond. When the questions/comments stop I will not post on this thread again.
I just noticed that the other Clark thread which was dead for three months has gone back to the top of the message board. So maybe its not me who has a vested interest.
The only person who knows if I'm ignoring your comments or being disingenuous is me. Just like the only person who knows if you are doing the same is you. I'm telling you man to man I'm not.
We disagree on this issue and that's fine. I think the WNBA will continue to lose money and not become a mainstream popular league. I gave ample reasons why I feel this way and they are supported with data. I have said ample times that things could change one day and the league could become popular. My mind is wide open and maybe I could be proven to be wrong one day. Maybe some of you can admit the same thing: That I could be spot on about the league. Especially since the league has been a huge failure for over two decades.
c
I don't agree with your comments and don't think what you're saying regarding the WNBA is relevant. I'm sure you disagree with some of my comments. It does not mean you are trapped or being disingenuous. We disagree dude. No big thing. I'm sure we disagree about a lot of things which again is fine. Have a good day.
OF COURSE I HAVE A VESTED INTEREST!!! This has been off the friggin charts crazy!
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c
Dude telling a person they don't understand or don't get it is not the way to have people support you. Its talking down to people. Once again I understand your position and disagree with it.
My opinions on the WNBA are based on two decades of data. I see zero evidence that things will change this decade. Still, I would never tell anyone that if they only understood the data they would support my position.
...
Lots of money being put into Clark cards. She has elevated that league to heights nobody thought it could get to. At this time, it is almost entirely Caitlin Clark that is causing the league to gain in attendance and popularity.
As for her cards, she has the caveat of all young players in other sports of course.
The other caveat being brought up is the long term popularity of the league. At this point, with Clark in the league I don't think the near long term will be a problem for her cards. As long as she is playing and doing well then her cards will follow regardless of the financial health of the league(since it is being backed by the NBA and really isn't a risk of folding).
However, when she retires, there is going to need to be a torch passed to other superstars to fill that void to keep the league attendance and viewership to stay on the level it is with Clark playing. Otherwise, there is a risk that there will not be enough new fans to fill the void in buying Clark cards in the long term future when she is retired and out of the collective minds of society. Other leagues do not have that problem where their league is being propped up by just one player...they just reload a new generation of popular players. The WNBA has to get to that ability to 'reload'...and I believe it is a factor in the long long term health of Clark cards.
I have no idea if the WNBA will or won't.
LOL ok whatever you say. Its obvious what you're trying to do and it won't work with me. I have seen people try to pull this tactic many times in my life but never on a sports card message board. This is a first. If you want to discuss legit reasons why the WNBA could become popular one day I'm all ears.
Top notch response, well done. No mudslinging, no talking down to people, very nice.
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
If you have been collecting for a long time, you have seen a lot of things that looked like a bust turn around and be gold. it's often hard to say what will be the next big thing at the time though.
Basketball and football cards in general were less popular. Star sets of the early-mid 80s, 86/87 Fleer. They took time to blossom. Hockey could be tossed in there as well. Old hobby catalogs support this, although I am sure there were people speculating from the start on just about everything. Sometimes it paid off, often it did not. Heck, just about any oddball sport has seen a crazy rise in value from when it was released for certain issues. Golf, tennis, soccer, boxing, etc.
Autographs issued in the early days have spiked. Now they are sometimes 1/pack, but the early chase autos are insanely expensive and few probably saw that coming.
I always have and continue to buy what I like and enjoy collecting. The expected future value is moot for me. I have missed out on some really good stuff, but have things that have escalated in value that I would have not believed at the time I obtained them.