Coins Stolen from Mail
messydesk
Posts: 20,085 ✭✭✭✭✭
If you're in southern California, be on the lookout for 5 of Jeff Oxman's rotated die Morgans. A box en route to him was cut open, possibly at the Santa Clarita USPS facility and 5 coins removed (only so much can go in a pocket). All were in my holders, but they could be broken out. Nevertheless, here are some fingerprints of the coins that were stolen. The coins are interesting because of the rotated dies, not the VAM features. He's having this investigated within the USPS.
1886-O VAM 4 38° CW VSS 028286
1887-P VAM 27 108° CCW VSS 028291
1887-P VAM 27 82° CCW VSS 028292
1891-O VAM 1 10° CW VSS 028303
1894-O VAM 10 110° CCW VSS 028304
John
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars • Variety Attribution
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars • Variety Attribution
3
Comments
So angry to see this. Sorry about the loss.
How can this even happen?
I have less and less confidence in the USPS every day.
Student of numismatics and collector of Morgan dollars
Successful BST transactions with: Namvet Justindan Mattniss RWW olah_in_MA
Dantheman984 Toyz4geo SurfinxHI greencopper RWW bigjpst bretsan MWallace logger7
i have one coin that needs to be attributed it is rare as is but should it make the grade and properly identified we are talking $10,000 +. It is a Chinese coin. How does one send this in the mail with out any concerns. I was one who would hand deliver my coins at the LV collectors show but I am not heading in that direction anytime soon. How can you guys pull the trigger using the postal service with high priced coins or am I missing something? Fed EX or ?
While based on occasional reports here it might appear otherwise, registered-insured mail is extremely safe - much more so than almost any other option, including FedEx.
@messydesk, John, I'm sorry to hear of this. Was that package sent registered-insured or by other means?
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
It was sent priority with signature, no insurance shown on the package, and the value was below the threshold for my policy requiring registered mail. He had another package similarly rifled a while back and now would rather I use UPS to avoid the Santa Clarita distribution center.
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars • Variety Attribution
Double or triple box everything. Make sure it doesn't rattle.
Wouldn't hurt to have a return label on each inside box in higher value items.
Not saying that anyone at the post office can be trusted to return a damaged box but...
Bad employees work everywhere.
I'm not sure extra boxes help. Why not just take the smaller inside box and open it later?
http://ProofCollection.Net
Stop sending in flat rate boxes/dropping in kiosk
BHNC #248 … 130 and counting.
A postal theft hot spot map would be useful to have. The USPS would have to supply the information about how much is lifted.
Use the largest box that USPS has. It is harder to put in a coat and walk out.
The box used was a medium flat rate packed so that it was silent when shaken and difficult to remove contents, yet someone took the time to cut it open and extract presumably what would fit in their pocket. I don't know exactly what they did, since I wasn't there. Had I been, at least one of the guy's fingers would be in a USPS "We Care" body bag, where it belongs.
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars • Variety Attribution
I don’t know if it helps or not, but ever since I read on a thread on this forum a suggestion to wrap the inner box in aluminum foil to stop thieves who use rfid readers/sensors, I’ve been doing just that. Maybe every little bit helps?
Steve
My collecting “Pride & Joy” is my PCGS Registry Dansco 7070 Set:
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/design-type-sets/complete-dansco-7070-modified-type-set-1796-date/publishedset/213996
Sound advice. I'll often do that with PCGS slabs that have chips in them, especially in smaller packages. I was holding my phone when picking up a box off the counter once and it picked up the chip right away. This shipment was all raw coins, however.
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars • Variety Attribution
These guys must know either the Sender's or Recipient's address is associated with something valuable.
I think about this every time I send something to our hosts.
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars • Variety Attribution
There's no way the USPS is going to do that. They would further stain their "questionable" image by broadcasting the problem to the world..
Pete
It would seem that someone at that location knows that the recipient is involved with coins and that coins are probably in the package.
Use a 3" tube inside a 4" tube. I do not ever ship the calibur of coins some here do. But any coin I ship over $200 is done this way. It may not matter as the address may actually be the trigger, who knows. So sorry for anyone with losses.
Perhaps oneday grading companies may be able to allow multiple locations for delivery and pickup. Its not cheap to send a high value item by any means, so the grading companies could add the fee for this service. JMO
Jim
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
I have no knowledge of what might or might not be happening at USPS. But it seems like it would be easy to spot packages with coins addressed to 3rd-party graders. If someone works at the USPS distribution center that serves Tampa, for example, then that person likely is aware of packages being sent to/from ICG (which is located in Tampa). The same for PCGS (Newport Beach), ANACS (Englewood), etc.
I assume (or at least hope) that USPS recognizes that these locations are consolidation points for the shipment / receipt of potentially valuable coins, and has mitigation practices in place to detect and deter theft.
USPS has hired too many questionable characters who have realized that they can steal from postal patrons to supplement their incomes.
The result is that those using USPS either have to disguise what they are sending, up armor their packaging or rely on Registered Mail.
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/gold/liberty-head-2-1-gold-major-sets/liberty-head-2-1-gold-basic-set-circulation-strikes-1840-1907-cac/alltimeset/268163
You guys are so myopic. I'm pretty sure the bulk of the thefts are not thieves looking for coins, but any item in an insured package that they can fence for quick cash.
http://ProofCollection.Net
Makes you wonder if the safest way to ship is NOT to insure. This is a serious problem for the whole hobby and hope this group can find clarity, what is the best tried-n-true way toship these damn little nuggets.
How long ago was it that there was a thief inside of the Newport Beach PO? Anything other than registered is at YOUR PERIL.
You don't have to send all your coins via USPS Registered Mail.
Just the ones you care about.
I wonder by any chance if there might have been an odd colored tape, marker or other identifying label placed on the packaves arriving sans coins? Possibly more than one individual involved, suchas, one marking likely coin contents, one filching the item and another removing them. Thinking that unlikely is not logical thinking in this day and time of very loose morals. Would be nice to have numbers for number of missing items per facility per month. Just a thought.
Jim
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
Triple boxing dosnt matter either, had gold coin going to texas cut thru triple boxing , took out gold, and sent the package on its way empty to destination. There scanning the boxes and know whats in them in lots of cases, I was told this direct from local postal inspector.
I've never used aluminum foil and never had a slab stolen or lost in the mail. And that proves...
"Use a 3" tube inside a 4" tube."
You lost me there. I honestly do not know what that means when it comes to shipping coins.
Please elaborate for me?
Thanks
Except for the registered shipment that never made it to me.
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars • Variety Attribution
...you have been lucky. But the odds are not in your favor.
A cardboard 3" diameter tube for rolled maps photos and such inside another 4"tube with some cushioning material between both. I've done this a few times for more valuable coins. Whatever length you are comfortable with.
Jim
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
Really? You think that he has a more than 50% chance of having a package with non-foil wrapped slabs stolen in the mail?
You should reconsider the math here because you are really tremendously mistaken.
chopmarkedtradedollars.com
You might be on to something there.
Another thought, the postal workers handle all the packages from John and others who don't have any reference to coins on the package but once in a while a not so savvy sender slips up and tips a worker off to the contents going to that destination. Then bingo it's a 'crime of opportunity' if he/she handles a package out of camera range.
"Inspiration exists, but it has to find you working" Pablo Picasso
Which is why I and many others have an insurance policy. No indication of insured value on the outside of the package.
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars • Variety Attribution
Since there is a signature chain of custody for registered packages, shouldn't the last person who signed for it be presumed to the person who stole it or lost it unless it was stolen in a robbery or the storage locker was burglarized?
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Just curious. How do you secure the plastic end-caps of the tubes? Strapping tape?
I would glue the end caps on and then use fiber reinforced tape.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
One would think so, wouldn't one?
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars • Variety Attribution
Exactly, I just use strapping tape on both tubes, inner and outer. If packaged correctly, there will be no rattling nor movement of your item. It is well protected and both raw and slabbed coins are safe. As I said, I only do this for $200+ coins, all others I package normally and then put them in a used Temu bag. No body even looks at a junk bag like temu, even if coins were in it, they would be counterfeit. lol
Jim
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
The math doesn't matter. There's less than a 1 in 1000 chance of anything going wrong. Yet people who have shipped 5 packages successfully think it's because of the aluminum foil.
I mean, aluminum foil is strong enough to keep the aliens from reading my mind, so….
And I disagree with you as normal. I use this method because my phone picked up a coin in a package that I did not know had a coin in it!!! Why must you minimize everyone here all the time?
As I indicated above regarding my recent use of aluminum foil wrapping the inside box, maybe it helps, maybe not. But we DO KNOW there’s no disadvantage in using it, other than the cost of a few cents for the foil used!
Steve
My collecting “Pride & Joy” is my PCGS Registry Dansco 7070 Set:
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/design-type-sets/complete-dansco-7070-modified-type-set-1796-date/publishedset/213996
I didn't minimize anyone. I responded to a post about statistics where I was literally told that I had a greater than 50% chance of theft if I didn't use aluminum foil. @lermish pointed out the statistical flaw and I pointed out that the entire discussion of theft is rooted in a gross overestimation of the statistics of theft.
What are you disagreeing with? I ship over 1000 coin packages per year. Almost all of them are ground advantage, not even priority. I haven't had an empty package delivered in over a decade and there is maybe one missing package per year - and they are almost always stamps in an eBay standard 1st class package. If the number of lost/ stolen packages is 1:1000. The odds of successfully getting a package delivered 5 times in a row is 99.5%.
I didn't tell you or anyone else to use foil or not use foil. But I would bet a significant account of money that the vast majority of mail theft is a crime of opportunity not the result of anyone scanning packages. Do some people scan? Probably. Does the scanning add significantly more risk? I doubt it. Wholesale scanning of packages would increase your likelihood of getting caught.
But, go ahead. Foil away. But I remain skeptical of the statistical advantage.
A certain number of packages, apparently selected randomly, get put through various scanners (like X-ray) at USPS Distribution Centers. If they can’t see what is in the box/package and presumably foil blocks that, they may open it to see if it is banned material of some type. Read discussions about this on line. Your slabs/coins are thus at risk of being opened if they are scanned if you use foil that blocks the x-ray scan of seeing what is inside. So aluminum foil does not prevent theft in these cases. Sure the foil can block chips from being scanned on the outside by someone nefarious, but it goes both ways here.
USPS and blogs also note that packages that are different from standard are targets of getting scanned. So if one uses say, USPS Priority Mail boxes and the PM service apparently this is better as well. Since that is all I use and/or registered mail, I assume that helps. Like jmlanzaf, I have never had a package pilfered or gone missing, 100s and 100s.
Are packages weighed when scanned at each stop? Not that it would matter by then. Yes they are x-ray scanned at the receiving P. O. IIRC.
I would agree with the less than 1 in a 1000 chance of something going wrong. I have purchased more than 2,000 coins online, through eBay and direct from businesses since the early part of 2009. In that time only one package was lost, and it was for three Lincoln Cents and a total price of $8. I have yet to use tinfoil (except for my hat). A few packages get misdelivered along the way, and one time the Postmaster herself came out and tracked down five packages. It is easy to bash nameless people, yet experience tells me clearly it is the rare exception and not the rule.
I send registered on irreplaceable or almost irreplaceable, Full stop.
Only one missing package, 8 years ago, a priority to of course New Jersey, amongst hundreds.
I can pull some AI if you want Lerm to back up my supposition.
Aluminum foil provides very little x-ray attenuation. A copper, silver, or gold coin will stick out like a sore thumb even if wrapped in foil, even without using multi-spectum x-ray.
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars • Variety Attribution
Sure, but x-rays are not used to find coins, they are looking for illegal items - contraband, illegal drugs, etc. While the link below is about airport security, it applies to USPS packages as well. If they scan a package, and it is difficult to see some things inside such that something suspicious might be there, they might open your package. Al-foil wrapping can apparently confuse the scan hence they may open it to investigate further. There are other websites that discuss this with respect to USPS processing, and suggest no foil (I just can’t find them right now, must be using the wrong key words in the search). So it is 6 on one side a half dozen on the other. It may be the best solution is to simply wrap the slab only where the chip is (?). I have had packages arrive fully wrapped, and have sent a couple out that way.
So do you confuse USPS in their scans potentially risking that they open it to investigate further, or do you protect a chip inside a slab from being scanned by a nefarious person? Which is the higher risk? The key is to eliminate scanning of chips in the slabs but not raise flags at the x-ray scans for your packages.
https://allthingsaluminum.com/foil/can-x-ray-see-through-aluminum-foil/