CACG Grading - Does CACG grading check the CAC database if a coin did not receive a green bean?
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I have two coins that I believe are strong for the PCGS grade. I submitted both coins, along with others, to CAC. However, the two coins came back without a bean while a couple other coins I thought had less of a chance getting a green bean did. Go figure.
I would like to submit these two coins to CACG for crossover. What I don't know is if CACG uses the CAC database to to check if they did not receive a bean. In short, does anyone know for sure if CACG grading is influenced in any way by what has been sent to CAC? Thanks in advance.
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CACG knows for sure. Why not ask them?
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I was hoping to first get some thoughts from folks on this forum who may have tried this already.
I do know for sure that CACG grading either is or is not influenced in some way by what has been sent to CAC.
Even if lots of folks on this forum have tried that already, it doesn’t answer the question you asked.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
OK. Let me rephrase the question....
Has anyone successfully crossed PCGS coins to CACG after initially submitting them to CAC but receiving no beans on any the coins? What was your success rate if those coins did cross? Thank you.
You can just crack the coin out of its current slab before you send it to CACG if you're concerned that they will check their data base for a prior submission.
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"You can just crack the coin out of its current slab before you send it to CACG if you're concerned that they will check their data base for a prior submission."
I don't want to crack the coin out of its current PCGS slab. I just want to know what other people have experienced trying to send non-beaned PCGS coins (i.e. coins that were sent to CAC but never received a green bean) to CACG hoping to get a crossover.
If you send it to CACG with its current PCGS slab, there's nothing preventing them from checking their data base for a prior submission to CAC so you can't assume that they won't check. I would guess that when they are busy, they would only check for a prior submission to CAC if they see a minor borderline issue.
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"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
I'm 99% sure they don't check. Why would they bother? You want crossover. They want to cross it over.
Yes they know if a coin has been to JA and failed. On other forums it has been stated they share a database.
I have sent over 40 coins (PCGS only) to CACG that have been to JA and failed (from what I was told by prior owners). Only 2 of those crossed at grade. Some I did not allow a downgrade so they came back. On some I allowed one grade down and several crossed at that. Last year it was $10 if a coin did not cross. I took advantage of that.
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YMMV
Frankly - Not a concern for me. I Just buy Pcgs or CAG sold off any stickered coins ages ago.
I would be against auto cross of stickered coin to CAG anyway. The sticker is a point in time. Since that time the coin could have regressed in the holder due to reaction with the atmosphere, etc. - such pieces get spots, haze, darker toning as time takes its toll. A certificate lookup pic analysis when coin first graded vs now might not be a bad idea in evaluation.
I think you'll get a fair evaluation but if it failed a sticker and you're sure they are solidly graded then you're likely to get a details coin back.
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What happen then? Does CACG "doesn't cross" and returns the holder "as is?"
He already stated that he didn’t want to crack the coin out. And even if it had failed to sticker, there’s no reason to assume it was due to a reason that would result in a details grade.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
OK, so not a details grade but a DNC.
But there's plenty of reason to assume that if it didn't sticker and it is otherwise "solid for the grade" (in the OP's judgement), it is a details coin.
From CAC's website:
So by logical extension, if it wouldn't qualify for a sticker, it's not going to qualify for a CACG slab at the same grade either.
So, extending the logic further, if the coin is otherwise solid for the grade but didn't qualify for a sticker, it must have a condition such as PVC, cleaning, scratches, damage, artificial toning, etc. that would prevent it from stickering and also straight-crossing.
http://ProofCollection.Net
In my last sticker submission I sent 8 coins which had previously failed to sticker. 3 of those stickered this time.
This is incorrect, a coin that fails to sticker that is deemed as solid for the grade by CAC may or may not cross or grade at the same grade. There are always liner coins that could go either way at any grading service. Also, you stated, "But there's plenty of reason to assume that if it didn't sticker and it is otherwise "solid for the grade" (in the OP's judgement)". The OP's judgment is irrelevant as it is the judgement of CAC or CACG that matters. Plenty of owners have rose colored glasses on when it comes to their coins.
As to the OP's question CAC and CACG share the same database so it is possible that they might or could check to see if a coin submitted for crossover has been rejected by CAC in the past. But even if they do check they do not automatically reject the coin. That would be like saying that PCGS automatically rejects every coins submitted under the reconsideration option, after all it was seen and graded already, correct. CACG does what every other TPG does when presented with a crossover, they grade the coin and make a decision to cross or not.
I think it is very likely that a high percentage of the coins that have been rejected by CAC will also fail to cross at grade at CACG as they are striving to use the same high standards. And yes, sometimes coins without beans will be rejected for crossover due to surface issues that other TPG's have decided to accept as market acceptable.
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I understand that the OP's judgement may not be accurate but we have to go by what they are saying and assume it is true for the proposed scenario. OP will have to let his own self doubt or confidence factor in. When OP says the coin is strong for the grade I assume it's not a liner coin. I think the "liner coin" factor is always a consideration but it can bog down a discussion getting hung up on this.
Please explain why a CAC-deemed "solid for the grade" coin wouldn't sticker? From the CAC FAQ:
Under what scenario would CAC assess a coin to be "solid for the grade" and not sticker it? Per their FAQ these are they coins they always sticker. And we all know that a CAC-stickered coin will automatically cross.
http://ProofCollection.Net
Where are pictures of these coins?
I would assume that CACG and CAC shares a database to save time reviewing coins for crossing over. It would not be wise to do otherwise.
From a collector’s standpoint, there is no way to know when I make a purchase if that coin has been submitted to CAC unless of course it is already beaned. I would hope that if I send a non-beaned slabbed coin that was previously sent to CAC, now to CACG, that they would at least consider it for crossing.
Thanks again for all for your replies. Based on a number of thoughtful responses, I will not be resubmitting these coins for CACG crossover grading nor resubmitting them for CAC. Instead, I will just go through PCGS' "regrade" option which has no risk of a lower grade and hope that these coins get the "+" they deserve.
“Regrade” will result in new cert #s, so they’ll be clean in CAC’s database. If you still feel the coins are strong, especially if they earn a plus upgrade, you can resubmit to CAC. I’ve had at least one coin that failed previously sticker on a subsequent submission, at the same grade on a new cert #.
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Sorry I was typing faster than the brain was operating. I'm just saying that the human element is present, JA has on occasions awarded beans to coins that failed on a previous submission even when the cert number hasn't changed or any conservation taken place. A coin that fails can still be solid for the grade (proven by being beaned at a later date) so we should not automatically assume that there must be a surface issue. A coin that fails to get a bean could (at least in theory) still cross at grade with CACG. I realize that we are talking about the outliers here, but still possible non the less.
My Collection of Old Holders
Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.
Yes, I agree, there's always a margin of error and inconsistency.
http://ProofCollection.Net
Failing to CAC sticker doesn't guarantee failing to CACG cross.
Furthermore, fail CAC sticker on try #1 doesn't guarantee fail sticker try #2.
However, your chances of A to cross are greater than B to sticker on a second try. That's my experience.
Ergo; feels more like a fresh sub than a retry.
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So I got to have a chat with JA today. Unfortunately I don't feel like I got anything definitive. I emailed CAC with what I wrote above, asking for clarity on CAC's standards on "C" coins. I did advise him this question was related to a debate in the forums and his answer would be posted. He said he would like to have provided a written response but he had a lot to say and he types too slow.
The best conclusion I have after talking to him is that CAC will "sometimes" straight grade C coins and sometimes they won't (my interpretation). I tried hard to pin him down on something definitive but after a fun talk about the A, B, and C coin terminology the conversation wandered to "liner" coins (i.e., margin of error/consistency) where you think a coin is one grade one day and another grade the next which I tried to get him to exclude from the conversation because that's an understandable gray area. He gave examples where collectors like their Peace Dollars white but (I believe he was referring to WL) half dollars with toning are more accepted or desired so the gist of what I think he was saying is that the market influences grading on how "C" coins are handled. He definitely didn't go into any kind of talk about grading standards and he had another side discussion on how there's too many grades and most of the time they are "splitting hairs." That's the best I got. I'm a little disappointed I didn't come away with a more direct answer but there was a lot to absorb and my mental note taking was working as hard as it can as I'm more of a visual learner. I wanted to be respectful of his time and I appreciated the amount of time he did spend talking to me. It's amazing how accessible he is to talk to collectors/customers. Anyway, just thought I'd pass this along because I mentioned I would be talking to him in another thread but I felt the follow-up belonged more in this one. Unfortunately I don't think it really adds much but if anyone else chats with him maybe see if you can get another take on this.
http://ProofCollection.Net
I bet all the money players spend on the cross game would buy a nice coin.
@ProofCollection thanks for sharing the feedback from your personal convo with JA. I had the pleasure of meeting him at Tampa GACC, and he is approachable and generous with his time and attention. Much respect to him.
The way I’m interpreting your notes is that JA basically confirmed grading is a mix of art & science, and that the standards are indeed fluid, including being influenced by market preferences (which are subject to change).
I think you were unsatisfied with some of his explanations because, as @PeakRarities and others argued in the other thread, it isn’t possible to define the exact differences between grades with precise language or example photos.
It reminds me of the famous legal statement by a Supreme Court judge—“I can’t define it, but I know it when I see it.” Therein lies JA’s power—the market believes he is the best arbiter of the inexact and fluid Sheldon scale.
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Kind of like casino gambling. You as the bettor might make money, you might lose money. The house ALWAYS wins its sliver of your bets.
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Not sure why CACG would not disclose this. Has anyone asked them (apologies if I missed this)?
You should get some crossover by virtue of the fact that they will be grading it and will assign THEIR grade to the coin. Don't expect your coins to cross at the same grade, though. Many coins are rejected by CAC because of TP overgrading, not because of some flaw on the coin.
I have a few almost flawless coins that I showed to JA through his site and asked his opinion on the grade. He said, "Where's the E in LIBERTY?" and later, "I like the coins but not at those grades." He was right. The coin below is overgraded by PCGS at VF30. PCGS even defended the grade in a thread here claiming it was a particularly choice coin with nice surfaces and deserved a grade boost. JA doesn't do grade boosts for choice coins. He stickers them if they lack problems and are at the correct grade as he sees it. My 1854-O below will either have to be regraded by PCGS to a lower grade and submitted to CAC or be graded directly by CACG to a lower grade. I expect it will grade at VF20, with an outside chance at VF25, with CACG.
I've heard the "too many grades" excuse before. It was used to explain why a XF45 CAC green didn't become an XF40 CAC gold when it had to be returned to the seller and regraded due to USPS shattering the slab without causing any harm to the coin. JA thinks XF should be one grade.
IMO, the coin is XF40 CAC green. It was slightly overgraded at XF45 CAC green, at least by today's PCGS standards. JA apparently saw it as an XF CAC green sticker-worthy coin without worrying about whether it's a 40 or 45 grade. PCGS's standards notably tightened in the time period between when I purchased the coin and when I finally had the coin in-hand and slabbed 9 months later. IMO, PCGS standards for XF coins have been pretty consistent since that postal mishap five years ago.
The color change is just a difference in lighting and photography.
BTW, another nugget from his conversation was that he was clear that he doesn't Gold sticker every coin that he sees that it is under graded. So even a green bean can be under graded.
http://ProofCollection.Net
I messaged Customer Care. They do NOT reference prior CAC submissions other than those that stickered. Even if several people send in a coin to cross, it will be looked at afresh. The CACG graders wouldn’t even know how to access coins in the CAC database that didn’t pass, says CC. I think I’ll give a few of my better coins that failed to sticker a shot.