Allen Iverson cards...

olb31

Allen was a great player I get that, but kind of controversial in the wrong way. Combative, cocky, and his last few years he was not that good.

But his cards seem to sell for a decent price. In fact they sell for more than Steve Nash, Ray Allen, Tim Duncan, David Robinson, Tony Parker and quite a few other stars. This kind of blows my mind. In my opinion, Allen probably isn't one of the top 50 players of all-time, maybe he is in the Top 75ish range.

What I'm I missing here? Any 76ers fan or Philly natives help me out here.

erikthredd

I could see it making sense for his cards selling for what they do:
one of the best individual one on one scorers in NBA history (regardless of height)
played during the internet era and has almost a cult-like following from certain demographics (also made popular by his Slam magazine appearance history)
Was part of (arguably) one of the top NBA rookie classes ever in 1996-97
Has tons of late 90's/early 00's inserts & parallels that also have a huge cult-like following among collector's

Nash & Allen came into the league in the same draft class and IMO Iverson was the best player of the three.
Robinson's rookie era stuff came during the junk wax era and so is priced accordingly.
Duncan's best stuff sells for good money on their own but Tim was really just a lunch pail guy compared to AI and sometimes doesn't get the credit he deserves for his accomplishments. (AI had a larger than life persona where TD tended to shy away from the limelight.)
Parker had a very good NBA career (w/a FMVP to his credit) but for most of his career he was the 3rd to 4th best player on many of his Spurs teams behind Duncan, Ginobili & Kawhi.

Some may point to Iverson's lack of rings but for the most part, the Bulls, Lakers & Spurs dominated the Finals during his career 1996-2010. The Pistons, Celtics & Heat each won a Finals during that stretch and the other three teams accounted for the remaining championships.

BBBrkrr

AI was more than a great player. He was a cultural phenomenon. That makes up for a lot of stats that aren't great.

He was also one of the most dynamic and electric players to watch in the history of the league. Bo Jackson-like. He will always be popular.

erikthredd

I think that a huge factor that can't be understated is the year he entered the league and all of the highly sought after cards there were that year and the following year or two.
1996-97
The inaugural Topps Chrome set with refractors
The inaugural Bowman's Best (for basketball) set with refractors/atomic refractors
Finest Basketball added Gold refractors for the first time.
This was the first year that many serial numbered parallel sets took center stage like:
EX-2000 Essential Credentials
Flair Showcase Legacy Collection
Skybox Premium Star Rubies
Ultra Platinum Medallion
1997-98 you had all of those same sets plus:
1997 SPX Gold
1997-98 SPX Gold & Grand Finale
EX-2001 Essential Credentials Future (#/78) and Now (#/3)
Finest Bronze/Silver/Gold refractors
Fleer Traditions Crystal & Tiffany parallels
Fleer Metal Universe Precious Metal Gems Green & Red
Skybox Z-Force Rave
Stadium Club First Day Issue
Stadium Club One of a Kind
Ultra Platinum Medallions & Masterpiece (#/1)
Upper Deck Game Jerseys

Then when you look at all of the best inserts sets for those two years he was pretty much included in all of them. If you're a fan of his and love 90's inserts/parallels then there are tons to choose from just in those two seasons alone.
https://www.tcdb.com/Person.cfm/pid/7288/Allen-Iverson

ElMagoStrikeZone

He was a baller. He literally embodied the concept of sacrificing physical safety for victories.

craig44

Iverson had the "it" factor. a very flashy scorer with great handles. He also was popular for his fearlessness. Driving into the lane even though he was only 6' and 170 pounds.

1948_Swell_Robinson

Because he was without question an elite player that can take over a game. He was better than John Stockton. The ability to take over a game by scoring like Iverson did is more important than dumping the ball to other players to accumulate assists.

Players had trouble guarding Iverson. Actually, they really couldn't guard him. Jordan tried and he looked slow. Iverson was elite.

For all the people that use playoff numbers, I always find it odd how they omit that for certain players.

Iverson averaged 29.7 PPG for his playoff career....yes more than Wilt Chamberlain. Only Jordan is higher than Iverson among retired players in that.

There should be no surprise why his cards are have value.

Cakes

@1948_Swell_Robinson said:
Because he was without question an elite player that can take over a game. He was better than John Stockton. The ability to take over a game by scoring like Iverson did is more important than dumping the ball to other players to accumulate assists.

Players had trouble guarding Iverson. Actually, they really couldn't guard him. Jordan tried and he looked slow. Iverson was elite.

For all the people that use playoff numbers, I always find it odd how they omit that for certain players.

Iverson averaged 29.7 PPG for his playoff career....yes more than Wilt Chamberlain. Only Jordan is higher than Iverson among retired players in that.

There should be no surprise why his cards are have value.

Luka recently grabbed the second spot behind MJ. AI is now third.

AI also went first overall in the draft, which is not easy to accomplish.

AI lead the league in steals 3 years in a row, Stockton lead the league 2 times.

olb31

Nice posts. i watched him play too and just never felt the same way the board is feeling. I saw him as disruptive, me type player, that wasn't a great team player. Now having said that, the NBA sometimes is void "team' players, so I do understand making a name for yourself and capitalizing.

It sounds like many of you have Allen rated near or in the top 25 players of all, which would certainly raise his value and should raise his value to high amounts.

I have a few of his rookies. and will send some in for grading soon. Personally I like Stockton and Duncan more than Allen and enjoyed watching both of them play. Great people that played hard and did the right things for their teams. I think Nash and Ray Allen may have been just as good or better than AI.

1948_Swell_Robinson

Iverson also lead the league in scoring four times. Only Jordan and Chamberlain did that more.

GoTigers

“We’re talking about practice ….”

olb31

Iverson lifetime stats

2 pt fg% -- 42.5
3 pt fg% -- 31.3
FT% - 78
turnovers per game -- 3.6
assists per game -- 6.2
steals per game - 2.2

Stockton lifetime stats

2 pt fg% -- 51.5
3 pt fg% - 38.4%
ft% - 82.6
TO/game - 2.8
ASSISTS per game -- 10.5
steals per game 2.2

Cakes

olb, respectfully you have always over valued Stockton. It took him 3 years to assimilate to the league, he averaged 5.6, 7.7, and 7.9 points per a game. Iverson came in and hit the ground running because he was just better.

1948_Swell_Robinson

@olb31 said:
Iverson lifetime stats

2 pt fg% -- 42.5
3 pt fg% -- 31.3
FT% - 78
turnovers per game -- 3.6
assists per game -- 6.2
steals per game - 2.2

Stockton lifetime stats

2 pt fg% -- 51.5
3 pt fg% - 38.4%
ft% - 82.6
TO/game - 2.8
ASSISTS per game -- 10.5
steals per game 2.2

You left out the most important one, PPG, especially considering Iverson took over games by doing so...he put teams on his back and said lets go. His PPG were the reason why his teams won. There is no comparison. Iverson could carry a team. Stockton could not.

There wasn't a single coach starting a team that would pick Stockton over Iverson. Iverson was a true difference maker.

Stockton wasn't a role player, but he has more role player in him.

Iverson was the engine.

olb31

I don't remember Iverson being a big winner. I think stockton played in more championship games than Iverson. And like cakes said above, I think Stockton was a very good player, same with Nash and Duncan. I like all three of those guys. Maybe I do put more value into those three and probably many more players than Allen Iverson.

I did leave out ppg, I have never been a huge fan of your point guard being the leading scorer on your team. Karl Malone who scored 30,000 points played with Stockton and he was smart to get him the ball as much as possible. Allen never had that type of player playing with him, so maybe Allen would have passed the ball more, who knows.

Allen was a great player no doubt, I guess i have him pegged between 50 -75 best players of all-time and obviously according to the posts above, the board feels more like he is near or around the top 25.

Nice discussion.

1948_Swell_Robinson

@olb31 said:
I don't remember Iverson being a big winner. I think stockton played in more championship games than Iverson. And like cakes said above, I think Stockton was a very good player, same with Nash and Duncan. I like all three of those guys. Maybe I do put more value into those three and probably many more players than Allen Iverson.

I did leave out ppg, I have never been a huge fan of your point guard being the leading scorer on your team. Karl Malone who scored 30,000 points played with Stockton and he was smart to get him the ball as much as possible. Allen never had that type of player playing with him, so maybe Allen would have passed the ball more, who knows.

Allen was a great player no doubt, I guess i have him pegged between 50 -75 best players of all-time and obviously according to the posts above, the board feels more like he is near or around the top 25.

Nice discussion.

Iverson carried his teams to where they got. It was him. Whether or not you 'like' scoring from a point guard doesn't diminish its value(especially since Iverson still made the necessary passes as a point guard too).

Iverson was a better defender too despite career steals totals. Iverson was simply much quicker...much more so that there was no way Stockton could overcome that deficit...and because Iverson worked just as hard.

Malone carried UTah far more than Stockton in terms of their games won You are putting way too much value into Stockton's assist totals when most of that value goes to Malone. Most of Stockton's assists were easy passes. He just did a lot of them and Malone put a lot of them into the basket.

Had stockton dumped the ball down to Adrian Dantley(who stopped the ball and took more time) then those wouldn't even be assists and you would not be viewing stockton the same.

Either way, it isn't too hard to find a point guard to to amass assist totals to elite scorerss like that. Just plug them in. You are giving way too much value to Stockton in that based purely on assist totals(and not even the difficulty of his passes of which were not difficult).

Stockton was simply durable and made easy passes to Malone for a long time. Stockton was still really good because they weren't all easy, but the majority were.

Stockton played a role. Iverson was the engine. It is that simple.

Ignore all that if you wish and keep buying Stockton cards(which you should if you like the player or cards)...but you shouldn't be surprised when more people want Iverson cards.

erikthredd

@olb31 said:
Iverson lifetime stats

2 pt fg% -- 42.5
3 pt fg% -- 31.3
FT% - 78
turnovers per game -- 3.6
assists per game -- 6.2
steals per game - 2.2

Stockton lifetime stats

2 pt fg% -- 51.5
3 pt fg% - 38.4%
ft% - 82.6
TO/game - 2.8
ASSISTS per game -- 10.5
steals per game 2.2

You're putting too much emphasis on the ASSISTS stat and not looking at the overall picture here.
On a per game basis in each player's career...
Iverson averaged 26ppg & 6apg which generated 38 team points per game (just counting made 2's on his 6 assists)
Stockton averaged 13ppg & 10.5 apg which generated 34 team points per game (using the same criteria)

Those two also had entirely different roles as players even though they were both considered "point guards."
Iverson was his team's primary ballhandler but also their #1 scoring option that opposing defenses focused on foremost.
Stockton was his team's primary ballhandler/ball distributor and during many seasons their 2nd-3rd-4th leading scorer while Karl Malone was the main focus of opposing defenses on a nightly basis.

Iverson entering the league was really the first time where teams started shifting away from the traditional point guard in your lineup where your primary ballhandler was a scorer first, facilitator second which eventually paved the way for players like Kyrie, Steph, Dame & James Harden.

erikthredd

Like in every sport in this hobby, we see plenty of instances where great players had exceptional careers but it never really would equate to hobby love and most of the time card prices would reflect that. it also depends on which era that player entered the NBA and what was the hobby like at the time.

Had Iverson been drafted in 1989-90-91 his best rookie would probably sell anywhere from $1-5 comparable to David Robinson or Gary Payton. Instead his first two years in the league coincided with arguably the most impactful two year stretch in basketball card history.

Cakes

olb, I have the big fundamental ranked much higher than AI, Nash, or Stockton.

olb31

@Cakes said:
olb, I have the big fundamental ranked much higher than AI, Nash, or Stockton.

are you allowed to talk about that on this board?

erikthredd

@Cakes said:
olb, I have the big fundamental ranked much higher than AI, Nash, or Stockton.

A legit case could be made that Tim Duncan is the most underrated player in NBA history.
5-1 Finals record
(2) MVP & (3) FMVP
(10) All-NBA 1st teams, (3) 2nd & (2) 3rd
(8) 1st & (7) 2nd All-Defensive teams
11th in Career Regular Season Games Played
17th in Points Scored
6th in Rebounds
5th in Blocks
3rd in Career Playoffs Games Played
6th in Playoffs Points Scored
3rd in Playoffs Rebounds
1st in Playoffs Blocks

IMO, he should be on the same level as Magic, Bird, Shaq, Kobe, Curry & Wilt. He was just as good, just not as flashy.

olb31

Love TIm, what a person, player and teammate. But please try not to talk about your "big fundamental" on the board. LOL!!

erikthredd

Yeah, that one went way over my head. I have no idea what that’s supposed to insinuate here.

Cakes

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