NHL: Alexander Ovechkin 11 goals away from passing Wayne Gretzky's 894 goal record

TheGoonies1985

Ovechkin now sits at 870 goals.

TheGoonies1985

I never wanted to see Wayne's record get passed but here we are and I have no doubt Ovechkin will pass it this season. And be the first ever to reach 900 career NHL goals.

TheGoonies1985

Wayne's 2857 career points will never be passed you would need 200 point season for 15 straight years and no one has ever had 200 points in a single season except Gretzky (Lemieux had one season of 199 points). Or 150 points for 20 straight seasons it is impossible.

No one else has ever reached 2000 points in their career.

Basebal21

I still think that Waynes record for the goals is more impressive. Played in a more physical era and Ovi has taken almost 2000 more shots on goal than Wayne did. Ovis a great player but hes a selfish volume shooter with the all time shots record by a good margin in a shorter time than anyone else. He will probably finish his career as the only player with over 7k shots, Wayne would have a lot more goals if he played that way

lanemyer85

@Basebal21 said:
I still think that Waynes record for the goals is more impressive. Played in a more physical era and Ovi has taken almost 2000 more shots on goal than Wayne did. Ovis a great player but hes a selfish volume shooter with the all time shots record by a good margin in a shorter time than anyone else. He will probably finish his career as the only player with over 7k shots, Wayne would have a lot more goals if he played that way

except 99 played 95% of his career in an era where a winger's defensive responsibility was to not let the trailing defensemen get in front of them...not to mention he barely played in the 1994-2019 deadpuck (trap/obscruction) era....an era where team defensive systems became a thing. 1995 is also roughly when the average goalie became actualized-competent...when goalies began getting taught cutting down angles is the most important thing. How many 2-pad stacks do you see today? None, unless there's a goalmouth scramble/wraparound situation, because goalies today are rarely out of position. Whereas pre-95, the average goalie routinely looked like an infant getting dipe-wrapped.

Go hit youtube for prime-Gretzky era goal highlights and see how much open space is around the slot (the slot era is where 75% of goals are scored from today). An era where guys were scoring goals on slap shots from the point with no net-front screens due to poor goaler positioning and a complete lack of defensive help from wingers who generally pulled up at the blueline. 99 would adjust to today's game, but he wouldn't be scoring 800+ goals even in a 20 year career. His shot wasn't that good. He'd have to become Auston Matthews-versatile in scoring goals via various means - wristers, slappers, one-timers (led the league last year), shot tips/redirections etc (he's in the top 6 or 7 in all those categories...whereas most 30 goal guys are in one.

The argument here is whether Ovechkin is actually better than 99 because in most cases 99 created his chances, yes with help from Kurri and Coffey and other high-end HOFers, but over half of Ovechkin's goals were directly scored via one-timers which means he's dependent on someone one else to create/feed the chance for him.

Basebal21

@lanemyer85 said:

@Basebal21 said:
I still think that Waynes record for the goals is more impressive. Played in a more physical era and Ovi has taken almost 2000 more shots on goal than Wayne did. Ovis a great player but hes a selfish volume shooter with the all time shots record by a good margin in a shorter time than anyone else. He will probably finish his career as the only player with over 7k shots, Wayne would have a lot more goals if he played that way

except 99 played 95% of his career in an era where a winger's defensive responsibility was to not let the trailing defensemen get in front of them...not to mention he barely played in the 1994-2019 deadpuck (trap/obscruction) era....an era where team defensive systems became a thing. 1995 is also roughly when the average goalie became actualized-competent...when goalies began getting taught cutting down angles is the most important thing. How many 2-pad stacks do you see today? None, unless there's a goalmouth scramble/wraparound situation, because goalies today are rarely out of position. Whereas pre-95, the average goalie routinely looked like an infant getting dipe-wrapped.

Go hit youtube for prime-Gretzky era goal highlights and see how much open space is around the slot (the slot era is where 75% of goals are scored from today). An era where guys were scoring goals on slap shots from the point with no net-front screens due to poor goaler positioning and a complete lack of defensive help from wingers who generally pulled up at the blueline. 99 would adjust to today's game, but he wouldn't be scoring 800+ goals even in a 20 year career. His shot wasn't that good. He'd have to become Auston Matthews-versatile in scoring goals via various means - wristers, slappers, one-timers (led the league last year), shot tips/redirections etc (he's in the top 6 or 7 in all those categories...whereas most 30 goal guys are in one.

The argument here is whether Ovechkin is actually better than 99 because in most cases 99 created his chances, yes with help from Kurri and Coffey and other high-end HOFers, but over half of Ovechkin's goals were directly scored via one-timers which means he's dependent on someone one else to create/feed the chance for him.

The Devils were definitely menaces with their defense playing the trap in the 90s. But that changes and a lot of rule changes to encourage more goals during the career of Ovi.

Wayne definitely had some great teammates early on but Ovi did too his whole career so far. He had very good players around him the whole time and Wayne put up a ton of points even leading the league on multiple teams for assists and points. Ovi never lead the league in assists and most were rebounds off his shots and never lead in points other than one year.

If 99 played the same way and took more shots hed have more goals and less assists. Waymes shot wasnt a missile by any means but if he had modern training who knows.

I wouldnt even say Ovi was the best player of his generation with how he just ddint play defense for so many years. Crosby doesnt have the same goals but has more points and better plus minus by far. A 61 point plus minus for Ovi is really tough

georgebailey2

Ovechkin is a specimen. As a pure goal scorer, he can legitimately be argued as the best. But if someone argued Bossy or either Hull, I wouldn't denigrate their argument. That said, you can only compare players against the competition they played against. Additionally, if you're only looking at per game stats, for players that only had a prime you need to look at comparable years for other players, not their entire careers.

@Basebal21 said:

Waymes shot wasnt a missile by any means but if he had modern training who knows.

When you watch Gretzky, no single aspect of his game stood out as "clearly the best". His skating looked choppy for example. He wasn’t a speciman and he didn't seem to keep the puck on a string like Mario. What set him aside from the others was that he played as if he was simultaneously watching the game from the press box and wearing an earpiece.

Yet, his skating and shot were actually deceptively elite. Once he got a stride on someone, I rarely saw players catch him.

As far as his shot, look at videos of the 39th game against the Flyers when he got to 50. At least two of the goals were complete cranks into the top corners of the net which no goalie in any era would stop. Or the goal against Sweden in the 87 Canada Cup. Granted, these are somewhat anecdotal, but his shot certainly didn't suck.

When I remember Gretzky, what comes to mind is the Max Mercy line in "The Natural": "Home runs, triples, singles...

Anything he wants to hit, he hits.

I've never seen anything like it."

TheGoonies1985

Ovechkin now sits at 872 goals.

Needs 22 to tie Gretzky and 23 to pass him. Needs 28 goals to be the 1st ever to reach 900 NHL goals.

Basebal21

@georgebailey2 said:
Ovechkin is a specimen. As a pure goal scorer, he can legitimately be argued as the best. But if someone argued Bossy or either Hull, I wouldn't denigrate their argument. That said, you can only compare players against the competition they played against. Additionally, if you're only looking at per game stats, for players that only had a prime you need to look at comparable years for other players, not their entire careers.

@Basebal21 said:

Waymes shot wasnt a missile by any means but if he had modern training who knows.

When you watch Gretzky, no single aspect of his game stood out as "clearly the best". His skating looked choppy for example. He wasn’t a speciman and he didn't seem to keep the puck on a string like Mario. What set him aside from the others was that he played as if he was simultaneously watching the game from the press box and wearing an earpiece.

Yet, his skating and shot were actually deceptively elite. Once he got a stride on someone, I rarely saw players catch him.

As far as his shot, look at videos of the 39th game against the Flyers when he got to 50. At least two of the goals were complete cranks into the top corners of the net which no goalie in any era would stop. Or the goal against Sweden in the 87 Canada Cup. Granted, these are somewhat anecdotal, but his shot certainly didn't suck.

When I remember Gretzky, what comes to mind is the Max Mercy line in "The Natural": "Home runs, triples, singles...

Anything he wants to hit, he hits.

I've never seen anything like it."

I completely agree. He wasnt the psychical specimens that Mario and Ovi were but he saw the whole game better than anyone.

Had Mario been able to stay healthy his whole career I think wed be having a different conversation. Wayne is still my number 1 for best player ever but Mario could have challenged that

Ovi is a specimen for sure I just dont like the way he plays. Ive had to watch far more Caps games than I wanted to from friends being big Caps fans but everything always seems to be about him despite playing basically his whole career on really good teams with a lot of talent around him while Wayne made everyone around him better on multiple teams

TheGoonies1985

Ovechkin now sits at 873 goals.

Needs 21 to tie Gretzky and 22 to pass him. Needs 27 goals to be the 1st ever to reach 900 NHL goals.

TheGoonies1985

Ovechkin now sits at 874 goals.

Needs 20 to tie Gretzky and 21 to pass him. Needs 26 goals to be the 1st ever to reach 900 NHL goals.

craig44

he has really had a goal scoring resurgence this season. he has those 21 goals in what, 29 games?

TheGoonies1985

@craig44 said:
he has really had a goal scoring resurgence this season. he has those 21 goals in what, 29 games?

He wants that record it is driving him to be this good.

TheGoonies1985

Ovechkin now sits at 875 goals.

Needs 19 to tie Gretzky and 20 to pass him. Needs 25 goals to be the 1st ever to reach 900 NHL goals.

BLUEJAYWAY

I wonder if Gretzky will attend the games that may tie and break his record.

craig44

I am sure Wayne will be there.

TheGoonies1985

Ovechkin now sits at 876 goals.

Needs 18 to tie Gretzky and 19 to pass him. Needs 24 goals to be the 1st ever to reach 900 NHL goals.

TheGoonies1985

Ovechkin now sits at 877 goals.

Needs 17 to tie Gretzky and 18 to pass him. Needs 23 goals to be the 1st ever to reach 900 NHL goals.

TheGoonies1985

Ovechkin now sits at 878 goals.

Needs 16 to tie Gretzky and 17 to pass him. Needs 22 goals to be the 1st ever to reach 900 NHL goals.

TheGoonies1985

Ovechkin now sits at 879 goals.

Needs 15 to tie Gretzky and 16 to pass him. Needs 21 goals to be the 1st ever to reach 900 NHL goals.

craig44

guy is on a roll. I wonder if he will retire after the season if he breaks the record this year or if he plans to continue playing. I think he will be 40 next season.

TheGoonies1985

@craig44 said:
guy is on a roll. I wonder if he will retire after the season if he breaks the record this year or if he plans to continue playing. I think he will be 40 next season.

Good question guess we will have to wait and see he loves hockey so hard to say. I think he will break the record this season.

Desert Moon

Sure if I played 50 years I could also pass the Great One. But just like Overchin, it does not make me the great one, but instead like Overchin, the grate one. Dude should retire, this is sacrilege for some slightly more than average guy to hang on forever and be considered in the same sentence as Gretz…………………

OK now time to watch the Oil vs. ‘lanche.

TheGoonies1985

@Desert Moon said:
Sure if I played 50 years I could also pass the Great One. But just like Overchin, it does not make me the great one, but instead like Overchin, the grate one. Dude should retire, this is sacrilege for some slightly more than average guy to hang on forever and be considered in the same sentence as Gretz…………………

OK now time to watch the Oil vs. ‘lanche.

I hate seen Gretzky's record be broken but it is what it is.

BLUEJAYWAY

We have seen many hang on to fill up stats. Think Emmitt Smith.

TheGoonies1985

Ovechkin now sits at 881 goals.

Needs 13 to tie Gretzky and 14 to pass him. Needs 19 goals to be the 1st ever to reach 900 NHL goals.

Basebal21

@TheGoonies1985 said:

@Desert Moon said:
Sure if I played 50 years I could also pass the Great One. But just like Overchin, it does not make me the great one, but instead like Overchin, the grate one. Dude should retire, this is sacrilege for some slightly more than average guy to hang on forever and be considered in the same sentence as Gretz…………………

OK now time to watch the Oil vs. ‘lanche.

I hate seen Gretzky's record be broken but it is what it is.

If Wayne took as many shots as Ovi he would have had over 1000s easy. Ovi is already almost 2000 shots more

Hell probably hand around as long as they let him but I still find Gretzkys goal record to be far more impressive doing is on under 5100 shots with and insane amount of assists where Ovi is closing in on 6800 shots. One player played selfishly one didnt

TheGoonies1985

Make that now at 882 goals.

craig44

I dont know tons about hockey, but I am pretty impressed at Oviś performance at extended age. I just read he is only the third player to have multiple hat tricks at age 39+

Basebal21

@craig44 said:
I dont know tons about hockey, but I am pretty impressed at Oviś performance at extended age. I just read he is only the third player to have multiple hat tricks at age 39+

Its impressive but their offensive basically just revolves around feeding him the puck. Hes lead the league in shots like 11 times and basically takes 300 or more shots a year. His shooting percentage isnt even in the top 300 all time

For comparison Gretzky is in the top 50 all time for shooting percentage with a plus minus of 520 which is 4th all time and Ovi has a plus minus of 64 which probably isnt top 500 all time even though he has all those goals

Its almost impossible to score 51 goals and have a plus minus of -35 but Ovi did at one point. That only happens when all you do is shoot and dont play defense

Tabe

You don't have to shoot nearly as often when goalies suck and teams don't play defense. In 1982,the year Gretzky scored 92 goals, the league had an .871 save percentage. For Ovechkin's career, the league has been almost always over .900. This year's .895 is the lowest in quite awhile.

Basebal21

The goals per game in the 1980s are basically the same as Ovis career. Its less than a 2 goal difference even comparing the most extreme years. The quality of goal tending in the 80s and 90s is very underplayed.

There was a one goal difference in the GAA from Gretyzkys 92 goal season and Ovis 56. What was a major difference was Gretzky put up over 200 points with a plus minus of 80 and 370 shots. Ovi put up a plus minus of 8 with a 110 points and 528 shots.

Not even getting into rule changes or stick technology one player consistently scored, put up assists and massive plus minus ratings, another player consistently had atrocious plus minus and put up far more shots than anyone in the history of the NHL. Borque is the only other player over 600 shots in NHL history and it would take him at least two full seasons to catch Ovi who is still playing. Broque also had a plus minus of 520

Ovis stats are more comparable to Mike Garner and Marcel Dionne than they are to Wayne. Other than Garner and Hull every 700 goal scorer has had had at least 800 assists besides Ovi and 6 of the 10 have a plus minus over 100 and 5 of them its well over 200

Wayne benefited from some super teams no doubt, but so did Ovi playing on the top line of one of the best teams in the NHL his entire career. Crosby is also better than Ovi and they played their whole careers at the same time

TheGoonies1985

Ovechkin now sits at 883 goals.

Needs 11 to tie Gretzky and 12 to pass him. Needs 17 goals to be the 1st ever to reach 900 NHL goals.

TheGoonies1985

Seems like he will break the record this season.

bgr

Some of you guys sound like you don’t respect the accomplishment at all. I find that remarkable.

TheGoonies1985

@bgr said:
Some of you guys sound like you don’t respect the accomplishment at all. I find that remarkable.

I respect it just as a Canadian I rather Gretzky (Canadian) hold the record but records are meant to be broken like Wayne said many times so that includes his. I know no one will ever pass his career point total so at least there is that.

craig44

it sure seems that record is going to fall this season

bgr

It might prompt another Gretzky private signing... It's been soooo long now.

Tabe

@Basebal21 said:
The goals per game in the 1980s are basically the same as Ovis career. Its less than a 2 goal difference even comparing the most extreme years. The quality of goal tending in the 80s and 90s is very underplayed.

A 2-goal difference is MASSIVE when you're talking 6 goals a game.

From 80/81 to 89/90, the average team scored over 290 goals a year every single year with most years being over 300. Over the last 10 years, the league hasn't had a single year over 260 with multiple years under 220.

And you didn't address the big difference in save percentage.

I watched hundreds of games in the 80s and have seen thousands total. It is unquestionable that defense and goaltending were a lot worse in the 80s. There's no chance guys like Alan Bester or Darren Pang could play today.

bgr

@Tabe said:

@Basebal21 said:
The goals per game in the 1980s are basically the same as Ovis career. Its less than a 2 goal difference even comparing the most extreme years. The quality of goal tending in the 80s and 90s is very underplayed.

A 2-goal difference is MASSIVE when you're talking 6 goals a game.

From 80/81 to 89/90, the average team scored over 290 goals a year every single year with most years being over 300. Over the last 10 years, the league hasn't had a single year over 260 with multiple years under 220.

And you didn't address the big difference in save percentage.

I watched hundreds of games in the 80s and have seen thousands total. It is unquestionable that defense and goaltending were a lot worse in the 80s. There's no chance guys like Alan Bester or Darren Pang could play today.

I thought you were just going to let him walk away with that. It's only 2 goals. I wasn't going to bring it up since he mentioned he was beaned in the back of the head... because... you know... Ouch.

Basebal21

@Tabe said:

@Basebal21 said:
The goals per game in the 1980s are basically the same as Ovis career. Its less than a 2 goal difference even comparing the most extreme years. The quality of goal tending in the 80s and 90s is very underplayed.

A 2-goal difference is MASSIVE when you're talking 6 goals a game.

From 80/81 to 89/90, the average team scored over 290 goals a year every single year with most years being over 300. Over the last 10 years, the league hasn't had a single year over 260 with multiple years under 220.

And you didn't address the big difference in save percentage.

I watched hundreds of games in the 80s and have seen thousands total. It is unquestionable that defense and goaltending were a lot worse in the 80s. There's no chance guys like Alan Bester or Darren Pang could play today.

2 was the extreme end of it and part of it was because of Wayne and the super team. Theres also the fact that the league had 21 teams during that time frame. Ovi started playing in 2005 when the league was at 30 teams which is watered down talent to an extent. The super teams didnt exist any more.

The defense was much more aggressive and the rules were much harder to get shots on goals. But the talent was more concentrated as well. It cant be ignored that part of the reason why the GAA and Save percentages went up is that there were a lot of 3rd lines and players that just wouldnt have been in the league with 21 teams. Some of the expansion teams even folded.

I'm not really saying that what Ovi has done isnt impressive it just needs to be looked at with everything else. Plus minus is by no means the end all be all stat but basically every stat has Ovi as a selfish offensive player on loaded teams as well as dose his game tape. Good for him but what Wayne did and Crosby the same time frame have done is more impressive

bgr

When Tabe posted that I looked up the numbers and the extreme way end was 2.4. The average was closer to 2 during their respective careers overall. It’s significant. He’s right.

BLUEJAYWAY

Was not aware of this situation until the postings herein. As am not a big hockey fan. But will be following this chase to break a record.

TheGoonies1985

@BLUEJAYWAY said:
Was not aware of this situation until the postings herein. As am not a big hockey fan. But will be following this chase to break a record.

Like the HR record in baseball. Enjoy the hockey games they are great.

BLUEJAYWAY

@TheGoonies1985 said:

@BLUEJAYWAY said:
Was not aware of this situation until the postings herein. As am not a big hockey fan. But will be following this chase to break a record.

Like the HR record in baseball. Enjoy the hockey games they are great.

I do find my interest increasing during the playoffs and usually watch some of the finals games.

georgebailey2

@Basebal21 said:

@Tabe said:

@Basebal21 said:
The goals per game in the 1980s are basically the same as Ovis career. Its less than a 2 goal difference even comparing the most extreme years. The quality of goal tending in the 80s and 90s is very underplayed.

A 2-goal difference is MASSIVE when you're talking 6 goals a game.

From 80/81 to 89/90, the average team scored over 290 goals a year every single year with most years being over 300. Over the last 10 years, the league hasn't had a single year over 260 with multiple years under 220.

And you didn't address the big difference in save percentage.

I watched hundreds of games in the 80s and have seen thousands total. It is unquestionable that defense and goaltending were a lot worse in the 80s. There's no chance guys like Alan Bester or Darren Pang could play today.

2 was the extreme end of it and part of it was because of Wayne and the super team. Theres also the fact that the league had 21 teams during that time frame. Ovi started playing in 2005 when the league was at 30 teams which is watered down talent to an extent. The super teams didnt exist any more.

The defense was much more aggressive and the rules were much harder to get shots on goals. But the talent was more concentrated as well. It cant be ignored that part of the reason why the GAA and Save percentages went up is that there were a lot of 3rd lines and players that just wouldnt have been in the league with 21 teams. Some of the expansion teams even folded.

I'm not really saying that what Ovi has done isnt impressive it just needs to be looked at with everything else. Plus minus is by no means the end all be all stat but basically every stat has Ovi as a selfish offensive player on loaded teams as well as dose his game tape. Good for him but what Wayne did and Crosby the same time frame have done is more impressive

Just out of curiosity, do you have a favorite team? What year did you start watching games? About how many games per season have you watched? Do you consider yourself a hardcore hockey fan? Have you or your children played?

Edit: These questions apply to anyone willing to share.

Tabe

@Basebal21 said:
Some of the expansion teams even folded.

Nobody has folded in the NHL in decades. Last team to disappear was Cleveland in 1978.

TheGoonies1985

@Tabe said:

@Basebal21 said:
Some of the expansion teams even folded.

Nobody has folded in the NHL in decades. Last team to disappear was Cleveland in 1978.

Some have sold and moved like the Quebec (Canada) team (now Colorado).

Basebal21

@Tabe said:

@Basebal21 said:
Some of the expansion teams even folded.

Nobody has folded in the NHL in decades. Last team to disappear was Cleveland in 1978.

Youre right folded wasnt the right word. But a bunch of teams have been relocated

Basebal21

@georgebailey2 said:

@Basebal21 said:

@Tabe said:

@Basebal21 said:
The goals per game in the 1980s are basically the same as Ovis career. Its less than a 2 goal difference even comparing the most extreme years. The quality of goal tending in the 80s and 90s is very underplayed.

A 2-goal difference is MASSIVE when you're talking 6 goals a game.

From 80/81 to 89/90, the average team scored over 290 goals a year every single year with most years being over 300. Over the last 10 years, the league hasn't had a single year over 260 with multiple years under 220.

And you didn't address the big difference in save percentage.

I watched hundreds of games in the 80s and have seen thousands total. It is unquestionable that defense and goaltending were a lot worse in the 80s. There's no chance guys like Alan Bester or Darren Pang could play today.

2 was the extreme end of it and part of it was because of Wayne and the super team. Theres also the fact that the league had 21 teams during that time frame. Ovi started playing in 2005 when the league was at 30 teams which is watered down talent to an extent. The super teams didnt exist any more.

The defense was much more aggressive and the rules were much harder to get shots on goals. But the talent was more concentrated as well. It cant be ignored that part of the reason why the GAA and Save percentages went up is that there were a lot of 3rd lines and players that just wouldnt have been in the league with 21 teams. Some of the expansion teams even folded.

I'm not really saying that what Ovi has done isnt impressive it just needs to be looked at with everything else. Plus minus is by no means the end all be all stat but basically every stat has Ovi as a selfish offensive player on loaded teams as well as dose his game tape. Good for him but what Wayne did and Crosby the same time frame have done is more impressive

Just out of curiosity, do you have a favorite team? What year did you start watching games? About how many games per season have you watched? Do you consider yourself a hardcore hockey fan? Have you or your children played?

Edit: These questions apply to anyone willing to share.

Used to be the Avs for favorite team and the 1990s with the Avs and Red Wings always having huge brawls and goalie fights was my favorite time watching hockey. Penguins Caps was another great rivalry around the same time. These days I dont like some of the NHL rule changes which has turned me off a bit, but my favorite team now is team USA I really liked the 4 nations tourney especially the first USA Canada game with 3 fights in 9 seconds

Yes I played hockey and played at a very high level traveling around the east coast and eastern Canada for games before giving it up to go pro in baseball.

I dont hate the Capitals Craig Laughlin was even my coach at one point. My problem and a problem a lot of fans have with Ovi is that hes going to end up being called the greatest goal scorer ever when he gets the record which he just isnt. Of course someone that spent the majority of their career not trying on defense ,taking the most shots in the league, and by far the most shots in history is going to end up with the most goals even with a low scoring percentage.

Hes certainly a HOFer but he isnt the best player of his same aged peers much less the best scorer ever

TheGoonies1985

Ovechkin now sits at 884 goals.

Needs 10 to tie Gretzky and 11 to pass him. Needs 16 goals to be the 1st ever to reach 900 NHL goals.