Legal tender counterfeit (gold)

spyglassdesign

I have a business associate in a different field than coins (construction), whose wife took possession of a collection of coins from her fathers passing. The first two coins they have shown me via text message are clear fakes. Counterfeit intended to deceive... not just copies. No markings of COPY etc as far as I know (I cannot see the edges, so COPY could be there potentially). They do have others in the collection that are clearly marked COPY, which is why I think these two coins could be marked on the edge. If they are obvious and proper COPY's then that changes everything of course.

I was considering taking the collection on consignment (after reviewing in person), however the fact that the first two coins they showed me being potential counterfeits is quite concerning. The first two coins were a liberty seated dollar and a gold draped bust $10.

So with that information, I know the laws on counterfeits are pretty strict. Let me know if I'm incorrect or if I or they have other options. What they do with the coins in their possession is on them, however I will of course advise them what the law requires.

IF I were to find that most of the coins were authentic, should I leave the counterfeits with them? As I understand it, if I take possession of the counterfeits as a business, I cannot legally give them back, correct? I additionally am required by law to report them to the police who will get the Secret Service involved? In that case I would advise them that if I take possession of them, they would be reported as such and cannot give them back or sell them.

In regards to the potentially counterfeit gold, would they be able to legally find a refiner to melt it down for the gold value?

Thanks for any insight/advice!

JBK

I suspect that you are overthinking the situation.

The fakes could pre-date the HPA. In any case, you might believe they are fake, but maybe you are wrong. You are not the police or the Secret Service. As far as I know, not only are you not obligated to refuse to return them but you probably don't have a right to refuse to return them.

Contemporary counterfeits (if that's what they are) can be very collectable. It's a bit of a gray area but it exists.

Greenstang

The only thing you can’t do is sell them. You can keep them or give them back.
In Canada you are not even allowed to keep them unless they are for educational purposes.

spyglassdesign

@JBK said:
I suspect that you are overthinking the situation.

The fakes could pre-date the HPA. In any case, you might believe they are fake, but maybe you are wrong. You are not the police or the Secret Service. As far as I know, not only are you not obligated to refuse to return them but you probably don't have a right to refuse to return them.

Contemporary counterfeits (if that's what they are) can be very collectable. It's a bit of a gray area but it exists.

You are probably correct on all accounts. I am not casting judgement yet as I haven't seen anything in hand, however the silver dollar is the wrong design for the year, so it's an obvious one - however it could be marked on the rim possibly. The gold is fairly obvious too (ie strength of denticles doesn't match any known samples at least by PCGS, nor is there a proof listed).

I just want to make sure my associate and I are doing things the right way.

spyglassdesign

@Greenstang said:
The only thing you can’t do is sell them. You can keep them or give them back.
In Canada you are not even allowed to keep them unless they are for educational purposes.

I thought it was illegal to possess counterfeits as well (not ones marked COPY, the ones that look like authentic coins without being marked properly).

4Redisin

@spyglassdesign said:

@Greenstang said:
The only thing you can’t do is sell them. You can keep them or give them back.
In Canada you are not even allowed to keep them unless they are for educational purposes.

I thought it was illegal to possess counterfeits as well (not ones marked COPY, the ones that look like authentic coins without being marked properly).

I think you are incorrect.

spyglassdesign

@4Redisin said:

@spyglassdesign said:

@Greenstang said:
The only thing you can’t do is sell them. You can keep them or give them back.
In Canada you are not even allowed to keep them unless they are for educational purposes.

I thought it was illegal to possess counterfeits as well (not ones marked COPY, the ones that look like authentic coins without being marked properly).

I think you are incorrect.

That's why I don't just trust Google Appreciate the feedback.

4Redisin

@spyglassdesign said:

@4Redisin said:

@spyglassdesign said:

@Greenstang said:
The only thing you can’t do is sell them. You can keep them or give them back.
In Canada you are not even allowed to keep them unless they are for educational purposes.

I thought it was illegal to possess counterfeits as well (not ones marked COPY, the ones that look like authentic coins without being marked properly).

I think you are incorrect.

That's why I don't just trust Google Appreciate the feedback.

Don't trust me either. See what the others say. I believe you can own fake coins (copy on them or not). You just can't misrepresent them as genuine. ICG slabs them for educational research; and I've seen some for sale once at a show in Georgia.

PeakRarities

If you're not deceiving anyone or doing anything wrong, you'll be fine and there's nothing to worry about. The secret service cant even bother to stop the active counterfeiting operations now, certainly you will not be on their radar for a couple of omegas.

Check them out and see what they are, and you can explain their only value is for educational purposes plus whatever inherent metal value. People buy and sell contemporary counterfeits and omegas all the time - with both parties aware of what they are. Just chill out, fire up a doob if necessary, and put on some credence. No ones hauling you off to jail

4Redisin

NICE CARPET!!!!

lermish

@4Redisin said:
NICE CARPET!!!!

Sigh. The rug really tied the room together. What a world.

burfle23

The definition I use; I have been in a couple meetings with Secret Service on the subject.

Steven59

( whose wife took possession of a collection of coins from her fathers passing. )
Well, there's your first mistake.....

4Redisin

@burfle23 said:
The definition I use; I have been in a couple meetings with Secret Service on the subject.

This needs a little work...The definition is great. A counterfeit is something made in imitation to be passed off as genuine. However, as I see it, the intent should have nothing to do with the fact that it is a counterfeit or not. The intent relates to the act of trying to pass it as genuine, in which case the law is broken. The counterfeit will always be a counterfeit. Additionally, IMO, replicas are not counterfeits. It may be illegal to pass one off as genuine to an ignorant person; but the coin is still a replica.

A Racketeer Nickel is an altered genuine coin. It is not a counterfeit but offering one as a $5 gold piece would be frowned upon.

Any lawyers around? I'm just playing like one which might make me into a fool.

johnny9434

@4Redisin said:

@spyglassdesign said:

@Greenstang said:
The only thing you can’t do is sell them. You can keep them or give them back.
In Canada you are not even allowed to keep them unless they are for educational purposes.

I thought it was illegal to possess counterfeits as well (not ones marked COPY, the ones that look like authentic coins without being marked properly).

I think you are incorrect.

I think he is. Get another set or two extra eyes on it, just saying 😉

Zoins

@spyglassdesign said:
As I understand it, if I take possession of the counterfeits as a business, I cannot legally give them back, correct? I additionally am required by law to report them to the police who will get the Secret Service involved? In that case I would advise them that if I take possession of them, they would be reported as such and cannot give them back or sell them.

What does PCGS do?

ICG will slab and return them:

PerryHall

All grading services will return a counterfeit coin to the submitter. ICG is the only one that will slab it with the appropriate label identifying it as being counterfeit. As far as I can tell, it's legal to own a counterfeit coin but it's illegal to sell it as a genuine coin since that would constitute fraud.

blitzdude

@spyglassdesign said:

@JBK said:
I suspect that you are overthinking the situation.

The fakes could pre-date the HPA. In any case, you might believe they are fake, but maybe you are wrong. You are not the police or the Secret Service. As far as I know, not only are you not obligated to refuse to return them but you probably don't have a right to refuse to return them.

Contemporary counterfeits (if that's what they are) can be very collectable. It's a bit of a gray area but it exists.

You are probably correct on all accounts. I am not casting judgement yet as I haven't seen anything in hand, however the silver dollar is the wrong design for the year, so it's an obvious one - however it could be marked on the rim possibly. The gold is fairly obvious too (ie strength of denticles doesn't match any known samples at least by PCGS, nor is there a proof listed).

I just want to make sure my associate and I are doing things the right way.

Pictures? RGDS!

spyglassdesign

Appreciate the feedback. You all have put my mind at ease.

I figured someone would ask. Here are the pics I have so far.

burfle23

Tested 96% gold; from my collection:

4Redisin

@spyglassdesign said:
Appreciate the feedback. You all have put my mind at ease.

I figured someone would ask. Here are the pics I have so far.

I'm no expert but the letters on the gold coin don't match the real thing so I say 100% bad.

burfle23

So did the OP...

4Redisin

@burfle23 said:
So did the OP...

Oops, 0 for 2.

Please humor me. This forum is much better than the other coin forums. I'm trying to post with the BIG DOGS and it will take me years - if ever- to join the "pack".

spyglassdesign

@4Redisin said:

@burfle23 said:
So did the OP...

Oops, 0 for 2.

Yeah. Not a good start lol.

4Redisin

@spyglassdesign said:

@4Redisin said:

@burfle23 said:
So did the OP...

Oops, 0 for 2.

Yeah. Not a good start lol.

It's just fun to be able to post about coins. At least I'm not posting parking lot "errors". How long have you been posting?

spyglassdesign

@4Redisin said:

@spyglassdesign said:

@4Redisin said:

@burfle23 said:
So did the OP...

Oops, 0 for 2.

Yeah. Not a good start lol.

It's just fun to be able to post about coins. At least I'm not posting parking lot "errors". How long have you been posting?

Been a member since July 2022. Listen to the people here. I've learned more here than anywhere else in 2 years.

spyglassdesign

@4Redisin said:

@burfle23 said:
So did the OP...

Oops, 0 for 2.

Please humor me. This forum is much better than the other coin forums. I'm trying to post with the BIG DOGS and it will take me years - if ever- to join the "pack".

Just to be clear the 0 for 2 is referring to the coins I posted. Not you.

JBK

@4Redisin said:

@burfle23 said:
So did the OP...

Oops, 0 for 2.

Please humor me. This forum is much better than the other coin forums. I'm trying to post with the BIG DOGS and it will take me years - if ever- to join the "pack".

Atleast you're participating without being abusive or annoying. You're already ahead of a few longer-term posters. 😃

4Redisin

Thanks, but I'm probably annoying someone. I've been a collector for a long time. I've taken classes where I ask a lot of questions and have been thrown out of coin shops twice while learning the ropes.

spyglassdesign

@4Redisin said:
Thanks, but I'm probably annoying someone. I've been a collector for a long time. I've taken classes where I ask a lot of questions and have been thrown out of coin shops twice while learning the ropes.

You can't learn if you don't ask questions. As long as you aren't asking if every little ding on a penny is pmd or mint error, you should be fine 😅