Flowing Hair 230 Privy Gold Poll

JW77

With less than 24 hours to the SB auction, what is your opinion where the 70s will end up. The current bids have been creeping up every day. This poll is for the nondescript numbers excluding the first 30 coins or so and coin 230).

jwitten

$15k to $20k

Probably should have an option for both 69s and 70s.

JW77

$12k to 15K

@jwitten said:
Probably should have an option for both 69s and 70s.

Good idea; If only I could figure out how to include 2 polls in one thread!
Edited to Add: Follow @VanHalen 's lead and add a comment on the 69s if you desire.
Thanks

VanHalen

$20k to $25k

I think the 70s will hit $20k or in that neighborhood. The 69s maybe $12k to $15k.

My 2 cents worth.

privatecoin

$15k to $20k

Where's the overpriced option?

pcgscacgold

$20k to $25k

Best of luck to all those bidding.

WCC

over $25k

My reply is contingent on the comment I read that the AGE privy mark coins sell for about $20K.

If this is correct, these should sell for more.

VanHalen

$20k to $25k

1:00 pm ET tomorrow we'll have the answers. Should be exciting!

https://auctions.stacksbowers.com/

JW77

$12k to 15K

@privatecoin said:
Where's the overpriced option?

Is that the @NJCoin "To the Moon" category

MilesWaits

over $25k

Hmmmm…

jmski52

The Mint's version of bitcoin. As this approach by the Mint takes root, the scarcity factor will be diluted. I think it makes more sense to buy bullion because eventually the premiums will evaporate. It happens with lesser issues so just do the extrapolation.

pcgscacgold

$20k to $25k

Any update? What happened in the auction?

PeakRarities

$15k to $20k

@pcgscacgold said:
Any update? What happened in the auction?

The floor for the 70s was 34k, and for the 69s it was 25K. Coin #1 brought in a cool half mil and #230 gets an honorable mention at 90k? (IIRC). Apparently we're living in a simulation, and I'm not sure If I like it here 😵‍💫.

pcgscacgold

$20k to $25k

Thanks Dan @PeakRarities

There is a lot of extra money out there and it seems to have found something to collect.

All part of the greatest wealth transfer in history. Hard to fathom $84 Trillion dollars being handed down by the Baby Boomers. Has to get spent somewhere.

pmh1nic

Coin #1: The first coin in the series sold for a staggering $440,000, far surpassing pre-auction estimates and setting a record for the series.

Coin #230: The final coin struck achieved an impressive $90,000, showcasing its significance as the closing piece in this historic collection.

Remaining Coins: The other 228 coins sold within a range of $25,000 to $46,000, with the majority fetching between $30,000 and $40,000.

pcgscacgold

$20k to $25k

Thanks @pmh1nic

Between this auction and the one with the Type 1 and Type 2 ASE's and AGE's a while back the mint and Stack's seems to have found something that collectors really desire.

Zoins

@pcgscacgold said:
Thanks @pmh1nic

Between this auction and the one with the Type 1 and Type 2 ASE's and AGE's a while back the mint and Stack's seems to have found something that collectors really desire.

It's going to be a golden age of collecting moderns!

Like the late 1800s!

pmh1nic

Can some explain to me how the profit in this auction is distributed? Did Stacks buy these coins directly from the Mint at a set price or did the Mint hire Stacks to auction them taking the profit and giving Stacks a fee for conducting the auction?

I’m guessing Elon and Vivek are loving this process if the Mint gets to keep most of the profit.

jmlanzaf

@pmh1nic said:
Coin #1: The first coin in the series sold for a staggering $440,000, far surpassing pre-auction estimates and setting a record for the series.

Coin #230: The final coin struck achieved an impressive $90,000, showcasing its significance as the closing piece in this historic collection.

Remaining Coins: The other 228 coins sold within a range of $25,000 to $46,000, with the majority fetching between $30,000 and $40,000.

What series?

MFeld

@jmlanzaf said:

@pmh1nic said:
Coin #1: The first coin in the series sold for a staggering $440,000, far surpassing pre-auction estimates and setting a record for the series.

Coin #230: The final coin struck achieved an impressive $90,000, showcasing its significance as the closing piece in this historic collection.

Remaining Coins: The other 228 coins sold within a range of $25,000 to $46,000, with the majority fetching between $30,000 and $40,000.

What series?

Series = the group of 230 coins that were auctioned.

NJCoin

@pmh1nic said:
Can some explain to me how the profit in this auction is distributed? Did Stacks buy these coins directly from the Mint at a set price or did the Mint hire Stacks to auction them taking the profit and giving Stacks a fee for conducting the auction?

I’m guessing Elon and Vivek are loving this process if the Mint gets to keep most of the profit.

The latter. SB conducted the auction on behalf of the Mint. Hence, no buyer's premium and no state sales tax. Why on earth would the Mint ever even think about agreeing to anything else?

PeakRarities

$15k to $20k

@NJCoin said:

@pmh1nic said:
Can some explain to me how the profit in this auction is distributed? Did Stacks buy these coins directly from the Mint at a set price or did the Mint hire Stacks to auction them taking the profit and giving Stacks a fee for conducting the auction?

I’m guessing Elon and Vivek are loving this process if the Mint gets to keep most of the profit.

The latter. SB conducted the auction on behalf of the Mint. Hence, no buyer's premium and no state sales tax. Why on earth would the Mint ever even think about agreeing to anything else?

Are you certain of that? How would we know that they didn’t just arrange something on the back end for optical purposes?

NJCoin

@PeakRarities said:

@NJCoin said:

@pmh1nic said:
Can some explain to me how the profit in this auction is distributed? Did Stacks buy these coins directly from the Mint at a set price or did the Mint hire Stacks to auction them taking the profit and giving Stacks a fee for conducting the auction?

I’m guessing Elon and Vivek are loving this process if the Mint gets to keep most of the profit.

The latter. SB conducted the auction on behalf of the Mint. Hence, no buyer's premium and no state sales tax. Why on earth would the Mint ever even think about agreeing to anything else?

Are you certain of that? How would we know that they didn’t just arrange something on the back end for optical purposes?

Because they announced it at the beginning of the auction. Because SB does not waive the buyer's fee on lots it auctions from its own inventory.

And finally, because they did not charge any state sales tax. That is due to a federal pre-emption that applies to transactions with the US government, which is why the Mint never charges sales tax for anything. SB could not do that with items it sells from its own inventory.

Bottom line -- it would make absolutely no sense for the Mint to go to the trouble of going this route, and then wholesaling the items to an auction house rather than paying a commission, as any other consignor would, and keeping all the upside for itself.

What would be in it for the Mint to "arrange something on the back end for optical purposes"? This was a big deal. And certainly generated a nice payday for SB. Not crazy to think SB received 5-10% of the gross.

Absolutely no reason to think the Mint would have had to share more with them, or with anyone else for that matter. If the Mint wanted to create value and then just give it away, they could have done so through any of their pre-existing sales programs, without going to the trouble of an auction.

If SB had no interest on the Mint's terms, I'm sure there are at least two other auction houses that would have loved to have had a shot at it. Having the US government be a party to a fraud to deny states sales tax revenue is, quite frankly, unthinkable, regardless of any issues I might have with the Mint's recent lack of transparency with us.

It also would make absolutely no sense for any other potential "optical purposes." If they wholesaled the items out to SB, that should make no difference to buyers with respect to what they are willing to pay at auction, so there would be no reason not to just announce it. But, as I said, economically it would make no sense to give the upside to a third party, since the Mint had no downside risk, given that its production costs are the same as for the coins they sold for $3640 each last month.

"
Lot Description
December 2024 Historic Privy Mark 230th Anniversary Flowing Hair High Relief Gold Coins on behalf of The United States Mint begins on Thursday, December 12 at 9:00 AM PST (12:00 PM ET).
"

jdimmick

Regardless of the agreement stacks made with the US Mint on selling these, they benefitted greatly from the onslaught of new registered bidders that could potentially be future bidders in there regular auctions as well as customers.
If any one noticed thats why the delay in start time trying to get people signed up

VanHalen

$20k to $25k

@pcgscacgold said:
Thanks Dan @PeakRarities

There is a lot of extra money out there and it seems to have found something to collect.

All part of the greatest wealth transfer in history. Hard to fathom $84 Trillion dollars being handed down by the Baby Boomers. Has to get spent somewhere.

I had to do a double take when you wrote $84 trillion. It didn't seem possible but running the numbers it is very possible. Incredible!

pcgscacgold

$20k to $25k

@VanHalen said:

@pcgscacgold said:
Thanks Dan @PeakRarities

There is a lot of extra money out there and it seems to have found something to collect.

All part of the greatest wealth transfer in history. Hard to fathom $84 Trillion dollars being handed down by the Baby Boomers. Has to get spent somewhere.

I had to do a double take when you wrote $84 trillion. It didn't seem possible but running the numbers it is very possible. Incredible!

I agree, and it is spendable cash for many that will get it.

PeakRarities

$15k to $20k

@NJCoin said:

@PeakRarities said:

@NJCoin said:

@pmh1nic said:
Can some explain to me how the profit in this auction is distributed? Did Stacks buy these coins directly from the Mint at a set price or did the Mint hire Stacks to auction them taking the profit and giving Stacks a fee for conducting the auction?

I’m guessing Elon and Vivek are loving this process if the Mint gets to keep most of the profit.

The latter. SB conducted the auction on behalf of the Mint. Hence, no buyer's premium and no state sales tax. Why on earth would the Mint ever even think about agreeing to anything else?

Are you certain of that? How would we know that they didn’t just arrange something on the back end for optical purposes?

Because they announced it at the beginning of the auction. Because SB does not waive the buyer's fee on lots it auctions from its own inventory.

And finally, because they did not charge any state sales tax. That is due to a federal pre-emption that applies to transactions with the US government, which is why the Mint never charges sales tax for anything. SB could not do that with items it sells from its own inventory.

Bottom line -- it would make absolutely no sense for the Mint to go to the trouble of going this route, and then wholesaling the items to an auction house rather than paying a commission, as any other consignor would, and keeping all the upside for itself.

What would be in it for the Mint to "arrange something on the back end for optical purposes"? This was a big deal. And certainly generated a nice payday for SB. Not crazy to think SB received 5-10% of the gross.

Absolutely no reason to think the Mint would have had to share more with them, or with anyone else for that matter. If the Mint wanted to create value and then just give it away, they could have done so through any of their pre-existing sales programs, without going to the trouble of an auction.

If SB had no interest on the Mint's terms, I'm sure there are at least two other auction houses that would have loved to have had a shot at it. Having the US government be a party to a fraud to deny states sales tax revenue is, quite frankly, unthinkable, regardless of any issues I might have with the Mint's recent lack of transparency with us.

It also would make absolutely no sense for any other potential "optical purposes." If they wholesaled the items out to SB, that should make no difference to buyers with respect to what they are willing to pay at auction, so there would be no reason not to just announce it. But, as I said, economically it would make no sense to give the upside to a third party, since the Mint had no downside risk, given that its production costs are the same as for the coins they sold for $3640 each last month.

"
Lot Description
December 2024 Historic Privy Mark 230th Anniversary Flowing Hair High Relief Gold Coins on behalf of The United States Mint begins on Thursday, December 12 at 9:00 AM PST (12:00 PM ET).
"

I want to clarify my position, because I'm not entirely clear on yours and this might be one of those times where we get caught up on semantics but actually agree with each other.

Let me add a disclaimer that I wasn't following this attentively the whole time, so i don't know what SB stated about it in the beginning.

First off, we all know that the "Buyers Premium" is a misnomer. It provides a buffer that leaves room for negotiations between the AH and consignor without having to disclose specifics to bidders, but either way the consignor is the one that ultimately foots the bills for the AH. DLRC ghas no "buyers premium either these days, but they're still netting between 5-15% of the gross totals via the "consignment fee"

I was suggesting that while there isnt a "buyers Premium" per see, I figured that some type of agreement was in place where SB would net 5% of gross or something like that and The mint would net 95% minus production costs.

I'm not entirely clear what your position is, but are you suggesting there was some type of fixed price like 5000 or 1000 per soin? Before I go any further, lets establish that so we don't waste our time.

NJCoin

@PeakRarities said:

@NJCoin said:

@PeakRarities said:

@NJCoin said:

@pmh1nic said:
Can some explain to me how the profit in this auction is distributed? Did Stacks buy these coins directly from the Mint at a set price or did the Mint hire Stacks to auction them taking the profit and giving Stacks a fee for conducting the auction?

I’m guessing Elon and Vivek are loving this process if the Mint gets to keep most of the profit.

The latter. SB conducted the auction on behalf of the Mint. Hence, no buyer's premium and no state sales tax. Why on earth would the Mint ever even think about agreeing to anything else?

Are you certain of that? How would we know that they didn’t just arrange something on the back end for optical purposes?

Because they announced it at the beginning of the auction. Because SB does not waive the buyer's fee on lots it auctions from its own inventory.

And finally, because they did not charge any state sales tax. That is due to a federal pre-emption that applies to transactions with the US government, which is why the Mint never charges sales tax for anything. SB could not do that with items it sells from its own inventory.

Bottom line -- it would make absolutely no sense for the Mint to go to the trouble of going this route, and then wholesaling the items to an auction house rather than paying a commission, as any other consignor would, and keeping all the upside for itself.

What would be in it for the Mint to "arrange something on the back end for optical purposes"? This was a big deal. And certainly generated a nice payday for SB. Not crazy to think SB received 5-10% of the gross.

Absolutely no reason to think the Mint would have had to share more with them, or with anyone else for that matter. If the Mint wanted to create value and then just give it away, they could have done so through any of their pre-existing sales programs, without going to the trouble of an auction.

If SB had no interest on the Mint's terms, I'm sure there are at least two other auction houses that would have loved to have had a shot at it. Having the US government be a party to a fraud to deny states sales tax revenue is, quite frankly, unthinkable, regardless of any issues I might have with the Mint's recent lack of transparency with us.

It also would make absolutely no sense for any other potential "optical purposes." If they wholesaled the items out to SB, that should make no difference to buyers with respect to what they are willing to pay at auction, so there would be no reason not to just announce it. But, as I said, economically it would make no sense to give the upside to a third party, since the Mint had no downside risk, given that its production costs are the same as for the coins they sold for $3640 each last month.

"
Lot Description
December 2024 Historic Privy Mark 230th Anniversary Flowing Hair High Relief Gold Coins on behalf of The United States Mint begins on Thursday, December 12 at 9:00 AM PST (12:00 PM ET).
"

I want to clarify my position, because I'm not entirely clear on yours and this might be one of those times where we get caught up on semantics but actually agree with each other.

Let me add a disclaimer that I wasn't following this attentively the whole time, so i don't know what SB stated about it in the beginning.

First off, we all know that the "Buyers Premium" is a misnomer. It provides a buffer that leaves room for negotiations between the AH and consignor without having to disclose specifics to bidders, but either way the consignor is the one that ultimately foots the bills for the AH. DLRC ghas no "buyers premium either these days, but they're still netting between 5-15% of the gross totals via the "consignment fee"

I was suggesting that while there isnt a "buyers Premium" per see, I figured that some type of agreement was in place where SB would net 5% of gross or something like that and The mint would net 95% minus production costs.

I'm not entirely clear what your position is, but are you suggesting there was some type of fixed price like 5000 or 1000 per soin? Before I go any further, lets establish that so we don't waste our time.

Yes! I am 1,000,000% agreeing with you. You originally asked whether I was "certain" in my response to another post, that SB was conducting the auction on behalf of the Mint, and that the Mint did not sell the coins to SB at a fixed price, with SB then auctioning them out of their own inventory.

I said I was sure that the auction was conducted on behalf of the Mint, and that the Mint was keeping the upside for itself.

Yes, as always, sellers (in this case, the Mint) pay selling costs. SB did not charge its customary buyer's fee, but of course it got paid, as it always does. I suspect it was a % of the hammer, to give SB a little taste of any upside. 5% is exactly what I was thinking, but it could be more, less, or even a fixed fee.

To me at least, that's not a "back end for optical purposes deal." The Mint owned the coins and consigned them to SB for auction. SB graciously "waived" its customary buyer fee, because the Mint recognized it would be cleaner all the way around. As opposed to the alternative, which would mean adding a 20% premium, which would cause bids to be ~20% lower, and then kicking back 15% to the Mint.

SB did exactly what it said it was doing -- auctioning them for the Mint. The Mint's deal with SB is no one's business, which is why it was not disclosed.

They probably got a deal that would make other large sellers annoyed, due to the prestige of handling a sale for the US government, with the prospect of more to come. And still a nice chunk of change for very little work on SB's part.