1% Clipped CBH!
Zoins
Posts: 34,283 ✭✭✭✭✭
Here's an interesting CBH error.
Kudos to @PhilArnold for the great photo. It's really nice to see these old PCGS slabs with some close ups!
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Comments
Why does it look like a dent (rim ding) rather than a clip? The metal looks shoved inward rather than snipped off
It's funny. If someone posted that coin raw here on the boards and asked about it I would likely have told them it appears to have been dented and that it's just damaged. Perhaps I would have even given them the ubiquitous PMD abbreviation.
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
Calling our resident PCGS error expert @FredWeinberg !
It's slightly curved inward. If it was a dent like someone dropped it on the floor, the dent would be straight.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
It almost looks slightly smashed like someone hit it on or with a large round metal pipe. I suspect it is easier to see that it is actually clipped by seeing the coin in hand from the edge.
My US Mint Commemorative Medal Set
Several clips were offered from the same collection last night. I got out bid on a couple including the OP coin. Would have bid higher if I knew it would make it to the forum.
If you look at the reverse side (and to a slighter degree the obverse), the denticles appear to move inward and follow along the curvature area. That leads me to think it’s dented.
My first thought exactly.
Let us ask the clip guy:
@seanq
Dead Cat Waltz Exonumia
"Coin collecting for outcasts..."
Good morning – although I do not remember this specific coin, I feel I must’ve seen a
‘ Cut and tear’ on the edge for me to authenticate it. And i’ll assume I was the one who certified it.
I see the parallel line that everyone is talking about, and I believe it might have something to do with the punch-
I am not that familiar with the exact planchet preparation and cutting methods to answer the questions asked above.
There appears to be some weakness in the denticles opposite the clip area on both sides -but that’s just from looking at the photos just now, and not remembering them on the coin specifically years ago.
for PCGS. A 49+-Year PNG Member...A full numismatist since 1972, retired in 2022
It'd be interesting to see the edge lettering, does it line up in a way that there's lettering opposite the clip or is a gap between words directly opposite? It seems logical that the castaing machine wouldn't be able to impress the edge lettering opposite the clip, but the more I think about it the more I wonder if the clip would interfere with the edge lettering process even more than that, like causing it to jam in the dies.
I am good friends with the consignor, a couple of the coins from his collection that have already crossed the block used to be mine. I am certain that he purchased that coin already certified as he does not submit, and I am also certain that he's had it long enough that Fred would have been the one to examine it.
Without seeing it in hand, the rim adjacent to the clip has the correct fade, and the circular marks on either side could be a small incomplete punch. In the hand I would want to inspect the edge both inside and opposite the clip, as the edge lettering gives another area to check for weakness similar to the Blakesley effect.
I have no reason from the images to doubt the attribution, and I know and trust implicitly the two people I know have seen it in hand.
Sean Reynolds
"Keep in mind that most of what passes as numismatic information is no more than tested opinion at best, and marketing blather at worst. However, I try to choose my words carefully, since I know that you guys are always watching." - Joe O'Connor
Dan had one of the most extensive collections of planchet clips that I’ve ever seen or heard of.
for PCGS. A 49+-Year PNG Member...A full numismatist since 1972, retired in 2022
Correct me if I'm wrong Fred but (at least with most all clips I've seen or owned) the process by which the clip occurs doesn't normally make its own thick raised edge like that... but most every rim bruise/ding coin I've seen has that look. Perhaps I'm looking at this through the prism of modern striking tech versus that of the 1830s...
RIP Mom- 1932-2012
Not sure what you mean by the thick raised edge, but if you’re talking about the incused circular line
Just inside the void area of both sides, I believe it may have something to do with a possible incomplete
Punched planchet.
for PCGS. A 49+-Year PNG Member...A full numismatist since 1972, retired in 2022
I think the incuse cut just to the inside of both clips is giving the illusion that there is a raised surface there; in fact that arc is below the surface of the coin, and the fields are flat out to the edge of the clip. If that was a dent the denticles would not be interrupted, you would see them to the left of that incuse line, but they are not there on either face of the coin.
Sean Reynolds
"Keep in mind that most of what passes as numismatic information is no more than tested opinion at best, and marketing blather at worst. However, I try to choose my words carefully, since I know that you guys are always watching." - Joe O'Connor
I thought I could see denticle remnants at the area of the lower pair of sm. arrows... Thoughts?
RIP Mom- 1932-2012
Quite an extensive analysis for such a small clip.
A few here including myself question whether it is indeed a clip...
RIP Mom- 1932-2012
Paging @jacrispies
Collector of Capped Bust Halves, SLQ's, Commems, and random cool stuff! @davidv_numismatics on Instagram
Keep in mind that the minting technology, as mentioned earlier, was quite different in the 1830’s than what many of you are used to studying.
The “clip” happened before the edge lettering was added by the Castaing machine. This COULD be the reason for the irregularities mentioned above. As others have said, I would have to see the coin in hand to make a final determination but from the photos I am pretty sure it is original.
A: The year they spend more on their library than their coin collection.
A numismatist is judged more on the content of their library than the content of their cabinet.
That is why I prefer a clip that is more pronounced and less in doubt. That has more telltale genuine signs.
My opinion - I see no doubts about the authenticity of the clip. Sharper edge on the obverse and rounded on the reverse are both clear representations of what an edge that fails to pass through the castaing machine looks like. Since the straight bar dies could not letter the interior part of the clip, the edge should appear exactly as such.
Here is my small edge clip, even smaller than the OP coin.
Futhermore, it appears like there is an incomplete planchet punch next to the clip. The curved line that has the exact arc angle of the clip, plus the depth and pre-strike qualities are what I see to come to that conclusion. Somehow the stamping press for the planchet punch made a near overlapping strike after failing penetration, and the clip was lined up perfectly to reflect that. Never seen a combo of the two which is why the OP coin is more interesting than normal small clips.
Here is a photo of an incomplete planchet clip near the edge:
"But seek ye first the kingdom of God and His righteousness and all these things shall be added unto you" Matthew 6:33. Young fellow suffering from Bust Half fever.
BHNC #AN-10
JRCS #1606