Want to see my new T-shirt with the original Wayte Raymond National Coin Album logo on it?

Mr_Spud

Here it is. I designed it myself from a picture I took from the actual Wayte Raymond Album. I thought it came out pretty good

Here’s the picture I took of the logo in the album

And here’s a logo guide I made a while back showing the evolution of the different logos that were used for the large size National Coin Albums which was my original motive to photograph the logos

jacrispies

SUPER cool!! Great idea!

oih82w8

Nice, uncluttered design...where's the gratuitous mustard stain?

SimonW

Really cool! Kinda…ya know, copyright infringement though 🥴. I would recommend not selling them.

Namvet69

At least you put on your pants.

Mr_Spud

@SimonW said:
Really cool! Kinda…ya know, copyright infringement though 🥴. I would recommend not selling them.

I wasn’t planning on selling them, but you never know. For fun I just googled how long does copyright last and AI says 95 years from first publication. The logo was first used in the early 1930s. If it was in fact 1930, then 95 years would be 2025 🤑

Here’s the AI answer that said 95 years

I also just tried to do a US Trademark search on NATIONAL and got something like 35,000 hits on the US patent and trademark site. I scrolled through a few pages and none were for Wayte Raymond’s National logo, but I didn’t do a thorough search. I doubt it’s still active though. My company has several trademarks and we have to make regular payments to the US patent and trademark office to keep them active.

Sanddollar

I like it and it appears you did a great job.
And, even if you didn't, I'd still state you did as you also look like you could beat the tar out of
most of us collectors here.

Mr_Spud

@Sanddollar said:
I like it and it appears you did a great job.
And, even if you didn't, I'd still state you did as you also look like you could beat the tar out of
most of us collectors here.

I wouldn’t do that, I’m very much a Peacenik 🌞

SimonW

@Mr_Spud said:

@SimonW said:
Really cool! Kinda…ya know, copyright infringement though 🥴. I would recommend not selling them.

I wasn’t planning on selling them, but you never know. For fun I just googled how long does copyright last and AI says 95 years from first publication. The logo was first used in the early 1930s. If it was in fact 1930, then 95 years would be 2025 🤑

Here’s the AI answer that said 95 years

I also just tried to do a US Trademark search on NATIONAL and got something like 35,000 hits on the US patent and trademark site. I scrolled through a few pages and none were for Wayte Raymond’s National logo, but I didn’t do a thorough search. I doubt it’s still active though. My company has several trademarks and we have to make regular payments to the US patent and trademark office to keep them active.

Interesting, I assumed 70 years after Raymond’s death, but I do work with active copyrights (after 1978.). I didn’t know there was few different stipulations depending on date of creation.

coinsarefun

I LOVE it! Very smart.

johnny9434

Way cool

Typekat

Just wondering: did you silk-screen it?

braddick

Spuds is tough enough he probably ironed it on while wearing the tee-shirt.

Mr_Spud

@Typekat said:
Just wondering: did you silk-screen it?

No, I was playing around with my Pixelcut app on my iPad, it has a bunch of graphic design features for online stores to use. I was playing around with their logo design feature and just started making fake logos for an imaginary coin shop and then I put some on imaginary shirts. One thing lead to another and I turned my photograph from inside the album into a t-shirt logo. And then I just googled “print your own custom t-shirt from a photo” and loaded the NATIONAL logo and it showed up at my house the other day.

Here’s a few pictures showing all that

davewesen

I like that National picture. What do you call it? a coat of arms, company logo, trademark?

Mr_Spud

@davewesen said:
I like that National picture. What do you call it? a coat of arms, company logo, trademark?

I call it a logo

Typekat

Well, that’s impressive!

Dream it one day, wear it the next!

Flatwoods

This is hard core coin nerd material.
Glad I opened this thread.
Cool shirt sir.

Mr_Spud

@SimonW said:
Really cool! Kinda…ya know, copyright infringement though 🥴. I would recommend not selling them.

For fun I went back to the U.S. patent and trademark website and did another search on the National Logo and found it. Only it’s the later Art Deco style logo, but the way it’s written it appears to cover other iterations. It wasn’t renewed and was allowed to expire in 1993. Not that I’m actually going to sell these, I doubt there is much demand, but I just wanted to know

messydesk

Well done! That shirt could bring only slow nods of approval from those who know what it is.

Wondering what manner of implement is in the dexter claw.

Mr_Spud

@messydesk said:

Wondering what manner of implement is in the dexter claw.

David Lange’s book states “A classical eagle appears with outstretched wings, its head to the viewer’s left; the eagle grasps a mace (?) in its right claw and a hammer in its left”

So he thought it was probably a mace but because of the question mark I’d say he wasn’t 100% sure.

Mr_Spud

I just went back to the U.S. Patent and Trademark site and poked around more and found this document describing the Trademarks origins, still doesn’t confirm whether or not it’s a mace, but gives clues and refers to some other references I might be able to locate, oh for @davewesen the document officially calls the logo a Trademark

Mr_Spud

Im onto something, not sure what yet though

Mr_Spud

Hot on the trail, notice the European looking Eagle has the same “mace (?)”

Mr_Spud

Here’s the logo from the National Blank Book Company where you can see the mace (?) better

The other European looking one seems to be based on the Heraldic Eagle with hammer and sickle which is also the coat of arms of Austria , only the one for National Blank Book doesn’t look like a sickle

Mr_Spud

I just looked up hammer and sickle, just to see if I could figure out the “mace (?)”, and it looks like the hammer and sickle image for communism originated in a contest in 1918, so the eagle in the National Blank Book predates that. Well, that’s enough for now, I gotta go do housework 🤓

Mr_Spud

One last thought, the tool reminds me of a sewing cutter, if something like that is also used in paper/cardboard/bookbinding, I think it might be some kind of die cut tool reference or something similar. Here’s what I’m talking about

Mr_Spud

Further…

will know more in about a week or so 🧐

This is their current logo

Walkerfan

I like it! Very nice! Well done!!

It's a great design but only an old-time coin person would known where it came from.

Most people would be clueless and just think it's cool and patriotic.

That's why i like it....Very low-key.

Mr_Spud

Soon I will be able to tell what dates the different Wayte Raymond Binders were made by looking at their logo’s. I was able to piece together the Chronological order of the large binder logos by reading David Lange’s book, but there was no info anywhere about which logos were used in exactly which years. But just browsing on eBay, I think I’m close to figuring that out for sure. I also think for 90% sure that it’s not a mace in the eagles claw, that it is a rotary cutter used for designing books. Look at the logo on the envelope below from 1917, you can see the round section has “teeth” or whatever you call the sharp thinks that stick out around the disk part.

But maybe this eBay seller is right and it’s a pizza cutter (I don’t think so)

I think this is closer

Mr_Spud

But here’s more evidence showing which logos were used at which date

SimonW

@Mr_Spud said:

@SimonW said:
Really cool! Kinda…ya know, copyright infringement though 🥴. I would recommend not selling them.

For fun I went back to the U.S. patent and trademark website and did another search on the National Logo and found it. Only it’s the later Art Deco style logo, but the way it’s written it appears to cover other iterations. It wasn’t renewed and was allowed to expire in 1993. Not that I’m actually going to sell these, I doubt there is much demand, but I just wanted to know

Cool! I want one.

messydesk

Leather embossing tool!

Mr_Spud

@messydesk said:
Leather embossing tool!

Yes, totally makes sense that this would be a tool used in making book bindings and an appropriate tool for a Blank Book Company logo

Mr_Spud

Here’s more examples of a rotary cutter or embossing tool being used for making books

On the bottom right of the sign

In the logo of the book workers guild

Mr_Spud

These ads from 1921 and 1923 shows the logo that’s in the earliest Wayte Raymond Binders, the one I made the T-Shirt from, was already in use

Mr_Spud

But in 1913, they were still using the European looking Eagle logo 🧐

Mr_Spud

The binder itself for that Simplex Price Book looks similar to the small size Binder for the Wayte Raymond albums. I went ahead and purchased it off of Etsy, I’m going to see if the small Wayte Raymond pages fit inside. If so, this may have been the original design they modeled the small size binders from 🧐

davewesen

Very impressive numismatic research +++

Mr_Spud

Jackpot 🤓

Mr_Spud

I’m pretty sure this is the guy at The National Blank Book Company who invented the binders and their metal mechanisms that Wayte Raymond chose for the National Coin Albums Binders when he took over marketing them. I found about a dozen related patents, I might have to dig out my earliest Wayte Raymond Binders with the Americanized Heraldic Eagle logo and compare it to the ones in the patents to see which all match

This ad talks about the binder metal mechanisms

JBK

I agree with the wheel cutter idea (not a mace), which probably is/was a tool used in bookbinding.

Mr_Spud

Still hot on the trail of finding dated documents showing the different logos 🧐

Mr_Spud

@JBK said:
I agree with the wheel cutter idea (not a mace), which probably is/was a tool used in bookbinding.

Yep, and I found evidence, see first image below
@messydesk Thanks for asking what the object was in the eagles Dexter claws, that helped immensely in leading me to find stuff that’s helping me figure out how to date the Wayte Raymond Binders by their logos.

Here’s some snippets of some of the pertinent stuff I found last night and this morning, the first one proves for sure that it’s not a mace in the eagles talons, it’s definitely a bookbinding tool







And, according to the Bookbinding Museum in San Francisco, the rotary tool is called a “fillet” when it’s plain and a “roll” when it has an embossing design on it

Now that I know what it’s actually called, easy to find info on the tool

davewesen

Wow, a fillet for drawing a straight long line. Amazing research you have done.

Mr_Spud

The weird thing is, I went through David Lange’s book about Wayte Raymond National Coin Albums again yesterday and there is no mention of the National Blank Book Company, so clearly (to me) there is missing information in his book. David Lange’s book, and articles online about the book state that Wayte Raymond had Beistle upgrade the albums to include the ring binders and that Beistle continued to manufacture them with no mention or credit given to the National Blank Book Company. Here’s what I’m talking about:

But clearly the logo inside the binders show that National Blank Book Company was involved. Perhaps Wayte Raymond made a deal with National to purchase the binders and/or purchased the rights to manufacture the binders with National’s technology

Mr_Spud

A likely scenario would be that Wayte Raymond and/or Martin L. Beistle were impressed with John Schade’s ring binder mechanism and wanted to use it for the coin albums instead of just using the covers that Beistle was using that weren’t a wrap around binder. And because National Blank Book Company owned the patent and required the use of their trademark logo, Wayte Raymond figured out a creative way to include National’s logo while making it look like it was Wayte Raymond’s logo and even going as far as calling the albums “National Coin Album” and printing National Coin Album on the cover.

It reminds me of the patents and trademark agreements that are in place at the company I work for. My company is a contract manufacturer of Soft Gelatin Capsules, the kind with liquid inside. Some of our customers forbid us from letting anybody else know we make the softgels that they market to consumers. We even had one that pulled their business because they saw we had a labeled bottle of softgels we made for them on display in a glass cabinet outside the meeting room where we meet with customers. From then on, we don’t display most customers finished labeled bottles and we even changed our product codes from an alphabetic system that included an abbreviation of our customers name as a prefix to random number prefixes so no one can figure out who we are making softgels for.

I plan on dissecting some of the more damaged Wayte Raymond binders that I have in my collection and comparing the binder ring mechanisms to see which of John Schades patents the different versions of the Wayte Raymond National Coin Album binders are using. I looked quickly yesterday at a couple of intact National Coin Album binders and they appear to match the patent image above, but I’ll need to dissect some to know for sure because they have a metal cover obscuring the bottom of the mechanisms.

I also purchased a few different Vintage National Blank Book Company Binders to compare them to the National Coin Album Binders to see if I can figure anything else out. Here’s a few that I purchased that are on their way to me