Full Steps?! TPG Uncertain Grading Standards
Ajc515
Posts: 6 ✭
Hi All,
I’m constantly buying as many BU nickel rolls on the hunt for the elusive full steps specimens. Like many on this forum, I peruse Heritage Auctions or something similar to look at photos of the sold coins to determine if my examples may qualify for a particular grade, designation, etc.
Having said that, I am AMAZED at how many Jefferson nickels get designated full steps with multiple nicks going across the steps. Both TPG companies have released standards - both of which clearly state that there can be no breakage in the steps. Now, I’m aware that a while ago, PCGS ran into some smack because they very loosely designated many nickels as full steps, when many of them shouldn’t have. However, take a look at the following coin : a 1946 nickel graded PCGS MS67FS. This slab has the gold shield addition, which PCGS only released about 5 or 6 years ago, meaning this is a relatively recent submission:
Is this actually an acceptable amount of dings/lines on steps, or am I going crazy?
Comments
Ditto. Received my first PCGS graded FS Nickel last week (42-D) and was surprised to see the condition of the steps. Not Gold Shield.
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I collected Jefferson Nickels for many years and in the early 2000's found myself dismayed by the current state of grading and assigning of the Full Steps designation with the coins. It prompted me to re-assess my collection and to sell off what I had and focus on the Proof issues. It can be discouraging to see the prices of designated coins, only to realize that the TPG(s) do not adhere to their own published criteria.
I don't think the Hobby overall realizes how scarce these coins can be with fully struck, unblemished steps.
I have always liked the concept of full steps... but have to admit I am very confused when I have tried to study and learn about them.
Similar issues with FB on Roosvelt dimes for me.
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A couple years ago I took a couple day grading class. I learned that instead of looking at the reverse straight on, you should look from 3 or 9 o'clock at a 30-50 degree angle. Think of a canoe going down a creek or rails on a railroad track and look for completeness of path. This also applies to FBL on Franklins.
Thanks for the info. However, wouldn’t this ding break the path?
You would think so, but unless you had the coin in hand (or specific picture showing what I described) you would not be sure.
I don’t care at what angle the coin in the opening post is viewed, based on published standards, the coin doesn’t qualify as “FS”.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I think you might be 20 or 30 years late to the party as far as searching raw coins.
"Full Torch" and "Full Steps" and even "No Feathers"
... all interesting Numismatic geekdom taken to the extreme.
But I like extreme, but the conflicting standards can be frustrating.
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There are still thousands (maybe hundreds of thousands) of original bank wrapped rolls around the country. In the early 60's roll collecting was a big thing. If they are fresh, why couldn't they have very good things in an occasional roll?
Mark, what would you do/say if your employer had a coin like that listed in one of their auctions?
Besides it not being full steps, I don't see how it made 67 with all those hits.
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I screen a large number of auction coins for clients (some of whom post here). When I do so, I give frank assessments, with no sugar-coating included. Assuming that the coin was fairly presented in the image provided, I’d say that in my opinion, it didn’t deserve the FS designation.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
" There are still thousands (maybe hundreds of thousands) of original bank wrapped rolls around the country. In the early 60's roll collecting was a big thing. If they are fresh, why couldn't they have very good things in an occasional roll? "
Absolutely! When I get a chance, I will post photos of what I think is a new variety find, and a very interesting one, I just found in an original BU nickel roll from the 1950's!
I understand the Full Step concept but I simply am unable to buy into the premium for such a small area of the design that is simply prone to production and distribution issues especially bag marks. I think a Full Portico would be a better designation as it covers more of the Monticello design.
The original reverse design was much better and should have been the choice.
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It appears, this particular (now pop 5/1) coin sold not once, but twice, at Heritage within a roughly 6 month period (which often is not a great sign). for a small fraction of the PG value, which I believe was then properly adjusted from $6,000 down to $3,850 (and I believe the PG may have been close to $20,000 in the past). But, the consequences of allowing a “lower end” specimen to get graded were severe (and swift) in this case as this date and grade had previously sold at Legend (with lovely steps) for multiples of what (this) Heritage coin fetched. I have always told Registry set collectors (like me) for decades that the grading services will only be as good as the worst coin they graded for the particular slot and grade. As that worst coin will in many cases strongly influence the pricing on many other coins for that slot and grade. Here is probably a good example of that at work.
And to be clear, I am not grading this coin from the pics. I am not emphatically stating the coin isn’t FS. I’ll need to see it in hand to make that determination in 5 seconds. What I am saying is lower end coins that make it into the marketplace often can “ruin it” for the solid coins. Now, that Heritage sold this date and grade for well under $2000 hammer (2x), it would be very tough indeed to try to consign one to a major auction company arguing it should be placed in the proper session where $8,800 items belong and not be told “INTERNET SESSION FOR YOU” (no offense to Internet sessions that some people like very much consigning coins to).
Just my 2 cents,
Wondercoin.
Article that gives PCGS and NGC definition of Full Steps.
https://learn.apmex.com/answers/what-do-full-steps-mean-on-jefferson-nickels/
IMO, no one who reads the definition of FS should have any doubt that the two coins shown are not full steps WITHOUT seeing the coins in hand. Look, it is what it is. Grading mistakes are out there all over the place - you don't need to point them out or buy them. If you send the coin back for them to honor their grade guarantee they will probably claim it was a label error.
I actually had to resubmit this coin to NGC to get the FS designation.
@Raybo
Is that a 1940-D that you posted?
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Okay, so long story short, can we all agree that if you send a Nickel into a TPG with strong steps but has a nick on the steps, 9 times out of 10, it will NOT come back full steps, correct?
No, we can’t all agree on that. It depends upon the placement and/or size of the nick(s), as well as the subjectivity and inconsistency in grading.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Okay… so if there was a better vs a worse spot to have a mark on the steps, where might that be?
Does it also matter the depth and number of steps it obstructs for most grading?
There are an infinite number of combinations of marks that can be on the steps. And obviously. some of those combinations are more conspicuous than others. So the answer to your question about “a nick on the steps” and “9 times out of 10” isn’t “yes”. It’s “no” because it depends on the individual coin.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
What do you all think about this one? Was found in the original mint set, and submitted to PCGS in mint set plastic at invitational last year. Graded Au-58. It is the closet coin to FS I Have seen on a 60-d, PCGS does not designate FS on 58's so that saves them from having to make a determination on whether its FS or not. (NEAR MISS IMO) While I was down at baltimore, I resubmitted one more time just to try, but came back same.
I am AMAZED at how many Jefferson nickels get designated full steps with multiple nicks going across the steps.
The designation FS on your nickel stands for Fair Steps.
Thank you all. It’s just crazy how subjective some of this grading can be from the top grading companies. I’m most concerned as I have numerous potential raw candidates for strong, full steps that might have a very small nick on the steps. But is it worth the $20-$30 to grade it in hopes that that nick is “maybe” insignificant enough or the grader is feeling lenient that day? Not too sure.
There needs to be something that goes on with the TPG’s and the grader’s that tells them to be more black and white with their grading. They cannot publish these guides and guidelines and then not follow them when customers submit the coins.
My advice is to set the coin aside in a safe place. No need to rush it to the graders.
Spend time at shows looking at as many nickels in sets and slabs as you can find.
Locate the FS experts and have them look at the coin in hand.
Just like Buffalo Nickels every series have tell tale signs of a great strike, and certain mints, and certain years are better than others....
It takes volume of coins in hand to develop your eye.
I have had dumb luck, bad luck, and made my own smart luck with persistence.
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Armed with the insight of some member's replies I may have to go through the raw Nickels I have and pick out the most promising coins. Maybe it is a case of "Real Estate" and it's location, location, location.
‘’What do you all think about this one?’’
1960-D: AU58. (Best guess)-Not FS. But, a nice “hole filler” to anyone working on a FS set.
Wondercoin
42D in a MS67 holder, it was also in an older soap bar holder.
Okay… 42-D would be tough at the grade level with FS
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AND THIS IS THE PROBLEM Ajc515! One of this country's very top (Top 10 ??) regarded numismatists and influencers wants to make sure there is just enough "weasel room" to cover TPGS's and keep grading as complicated and subjective as it can be. Try sticking a hand lens on a nickel in a FS slab and tell me what you see at least 20-30% of the time. The sad thing is he is probably correct. The 20-30% prove it.
I have no such amount of influence. And contrary to what you stated, I certainly don’t want to “make sure there is just enough ‘weasel room’ to cover TPGS’s and keep grading as complicated and subjective as it can be”. I was simply stating a reality that even you, said is probably correct. That’s a far cry from supporting that reality.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
As to the 60-D posted, I am not exactly sure about the 58 grade. I have seen toning such as this in Mint Sets and I suspect the majority here have as well. I am not sure about an FS... it is close. But really makes the coin special in my view is the completeness of Monticello. And Monticello consumes about 30-35% of the reverse design. The steps are likely 5-8% of the Monticello design and significantly less as to the total reverse design. So why should the concept of a Full Steps designation have such a stranglehold on the grading for the Jefferson series when the steps are simply not that significant to the look of Monticello or the design of the reverse in general?
I get the concern as to the quality of the strike, but that quality simply does not maximize or adequately measure the complete architectural design of Monticello as reduced and as it appears on the nickel. While it seems a FS designation should be black and white, it really is not that simple. Not all Jefferson nickels within the series and with the same grade range are created equal. Having a Full Steps designation really is not the most descriptive measure that should shape the overall view of an individual coin or the entire Jefferson series.
Turning full circle back to the 60-D for a moment, take a good look at the portico and how well the design of Monticello is captured on the coin. I believe that the discussion should start here instead of the fixation with steps.
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Why isn't grading 'full steps' an easy thing?
I understand that giving any grade is a subjective matter and that all grades do not have fence posts to indicate concrete boundaries between grades but in this case, there are a few distinct 'fence posts' that can be easily discerned by the grader.
'Full steps' means full and complete steps and 'no breaks' means no marks through the steps.
When the vertical breaks are observed in the steps, the coin should be graded very quickly as not FS.
Sounds simple to me, or maybe I have the whole definition wrong.
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It is simple and you have explained how simple it should be. However, collectors and dealers have made it complicated. Some believe that a mark across the steps should not matter UNTIL it reaches the full depth of the lines. Others believe that as long as the line is visible, although weak, it should not matter. Believe it or not, some can't even see the hits across the steps when told where to look! I personally believe that marks across a line HAVE NOTHING TO DO with the fullness of the steps, they are just contact marks to the coin's design and should affect the grade and not the FS designation. Now, did I really muddy the water?
What about planchet roughness or Debris, as in a strikethrough? All these types of problems have been explained to me in the past. I like to see solid lines when I buy an FS coin
