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Counterfeit 50g and 100g gold bullion bars

GreenstangGreenstang Posts: 1,162 ✭✭✭✭✭
edited December 5, 2024 9:16AM in Precious Metals

As most of you who collect gold bullion bars know, there have been for years 2.5g to 1 ounce counterfeit bars on the market. Now there are some new ones from China. So far I know of counterfeit Perth Mint and Pamp Suisse 50g and 100g gold bars on the market. To protect yourself, buy only from reputable gold dealers such as the likes of Apmex, JM Bullion, Bullion Exchange and a few others. Remember there are no deals out there. If you see someone selling a $2700.00 bar for $2000.00, then best stay away unless you know the difference between a counterfeit and genuine bar.
There have been four listings in the last couple of days, three which have been counterfeit which were reported and removed. Be aware.

Comments

  • jdimmickjdimmick Posts: 9,691 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Guy I never seen before came into shop last week with 100 gram Gold Pamp Suisse bar. I checked with sigma, and it was off, I told him I wasnt intrested and he might need to have it checked by another firm. He left unfazed.

  • GreenstangGreenstang Posts: 1,162 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Glad you checked it first, sounds like he knew it was a fake bar. If it should happen again and you are in doubt, post a clear photo of both sides and I should be able to tell you if it is genuine or not. I have seen more counterfeits on eBay than genuine bars.

  • derrybderryb Posts: 36,945 ✭✭✭✭✭

    gold bars are a minefield, one needs a Sigma. I have a Sigma and I still avoid gold bars, primarily because I can't check them until after purchase (on-line shopper).

    The government is incapable of ever managing the economy. That is why communism collapsed. It is now socialism’s turn - Martin Armstrong

  • GoldFinger1969GoldFinger1969 Posts: 1,896 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Sigma is some kind of metallic x-ray instrument ?

  • GreenstangGreenstang Posts: 1,162 ✭✭✭✭✭

    A Sigma Machine is a precious metal verifier.
    A good one can run in the thousands. ( Which is why I don’t have one)

  • derrybderryb Posts: 36,945 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited December 10, 2024 2:55PM

    @GoldFinger1969 said:
    Sigma is some kind of metallic x-ray instrument ?

    I have this one,

    It's all an individual (or a shop) needs. Works great with slabs also. It verifies metal content once you tell it which metal and purity you are testing. It does not determine a metal on it's own without your input. Eventually pays for itself. Even if you don't buy fake PM, it's worth the piece of mind.

    The government is incapable of ever managing the economy. That is why communism collapsed. It is now socialism’s turn - Martin Armstrong

  • blitzdudeblitzdude Posts: 5,961 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited December 10, 2024 3:05PM

    @GoldFinger1969 said:
    _Sigma is some kind of metallic x-ray instrument?

    Unfortunately, the sigma cannot determine heavily plated bars/coins vs authentic. You need a XRF gun for that and a good one will run you $15-20K minimum. THKS!

    The whole worlds off its rocker, buy Gold™.
    BOOMIN!™

  • JW77JW77 Posts: 491 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @blitzdude said:

    @GoldFinger1969 said:
    _Sigma is some kind of metallic x-ray instrument?

    Unfortunately, the sigma cannot determine heavily plated bars/coins vs authentic. You need a XRF gun for that and a good one will run you $15-20K minimum. THKS!

    The Sigma will catch 90% of the fakes out there; however, there are metals that give off similar characteristics to gold that can give a false reading. But theses metals have a different weight, so for coins you can take weight and dimension measurements to confirm authenticity. The heavy plating issue that @blitzdude mentioned should also be able to be caught through dimensions and weights.

  • I've been told some people avoid gold bars at all costs due to counterfeit concerns like this.

    The substantial truth doctrine is an important defense in defamation law that allows individuals to avoid liability if the gist of their statement was true.

  • derrybderryb Posts: 36,945 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Even if one is diligent and buys only authentic bars, fear of a counterfeit is still with the buying crowd. For that reason "i'm out."

    The government is incapable of ever managing the economy. That is why communism collapsed. It is now socialism’s turn - Martin Armstrong

  • tincuptincup Posts: 5,187 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Imo... gold coins much preferable to gold bars. Though certainly gold coins can and are faked also.

    ----- kj
  • derrybderryb Posts: 36,945 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited December 11, 2024 12:43PM

    @tincup said:
    Imo... gold coins much preferable to gold bars. Though certainly gold coins can and are faked also.

    to a lesser degree with US gold coins because of the longer arm of the law involving the Secret Service. Future buyers (with a resell) remain more comfortable with coins vs. bars. Always have ease of future sale in mind when buying specific PM products. For now there is less fear with PM sovereign coins.

    The various premiums tell you the demand level and the fear level held by buyers.

    The government is incapable of ever managing the economy. That is why communism collapsed. It is now socialism’s turn - Martin Armstrong

  • JW77JW77 Posts: 491 ✭✭✭✭✭

    The Canadian Mint one ounce bars in the mint assay cards provide some additional protection. Also, the bar is thin enough that you will get accurate readings on the Sigma and not have to worry about plating issues.

  • MsMorrisineMsMorrisine Posts: 33,240 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @JW77 said:

    >

    The heavy plating issue that @blitzdude mentioned should also be able to be caught through dimensions and weights.

    there are plated tungsten fakes. tungsten is just slightly lighter than gold. dimensions could still be used but only measuring the "rim" thickness woun't do for a great counterfeit because the "fields" could be made thicker with the same height "rims"

    Current maintainer of Stone's Master List of Favorite Websites // My BST transactions
  • GreenstangGreenstang Posts: 1,162 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Imo... gold coins much preferable to gold bars. Though certainly gold coins can and are faked also.
    True. Of the top 50 most counterfeited US coins, 42 are gold $2.50 and $5.00 coins.

    The Canadian Mint one ounce bars in the mint assay cards provide some additional protection.
    Wrong. RCM 1 oz. gold bars are about the 4th or 5th most counterfeited gold bars.
    Perth Mint, Pamp Suisse, Credit Suisse and Argor-Heraeus are the only bars with more counterfeits.

  • JW77JW77 Posts: 491 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Greenstang said:
    Imo... gold coins much preferable to gold bars. Though certainly gold coins can and are faked also.
    True. Of the top 50 most counterfeited US coins, 42 are gold $2.50 and $5.00 coins.

    The Canadian Mint one ounce bars in the mint assay cards provide some additional protection.
    Wrong. RCM 1 oz. gold bars are about the 4th or 5th most counterfeited gold bars.
    Perth Mint, Pamp Suisse, Credit Suisse and Argor-Heraeus are the only bars with more counterfeits.

    I'm not saying RCM bars are not counterfeited; I am saying that if you are familiar with the bars and their security features and also use the SIGMA device you should be able to validate its authenticity.

  • GreenstangGreenstang Posts: 1,162 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I'm not saying RCM bars are not counterfeited; I am saying that if you are familiar with the bars and their security features and also use the SIGMA device you should be able to validate its authenticity.
    Maple Leaf gold coins have more security features than the bars but it is still fairly easy to visually idenify a RCM Gold counterfeit bar in the old style holder. As far as I know, the new style bars and holders have not yet been counterfeited so you should be save in purchasing one of those. Much like counterfeit coins, counterfeit gold bars have markers that you can identify them visually without needing a machine to tell you. As always, purchase from a reptuable gold dealer no matter what bar you buy.

  • derrybderryb Posts: 36,945 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Greenstang said:
    As always, purchase from a reputable gold dealer no matter what bar you buy.

    This.

    If a deal is too good to be true, then it's not a good deal.

    The government is incapable of ever managing the economy. That is why communism collapsed. It is now socialism’s turn - Martin Armstrong

  • dcarrdcarr Posts: 8,525 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @blitzdude said:

    @GoldFinger1969 said:
    _Sigma is some kind of metallic x-ray instrument?

    Unfortunately, the sigma cannot determine heavily plated bars/coins vs authentic. You need a XRF gun for that and a good one will run you $15-20K minimum. THKS!

    .

    XRF will NOT detect problematic items such as tungsten that is wrapped in heavy gold foil.

    .

  • Thanks for the warning! Counterfeit gold bars are a serious concern. Sticking to trusted dealers like APMEX, JM Bullion, and Bullion Exchange is the safest bet. Also, checking for security features like assay cards and serial numbers can help avoid fakes. Stay safe and invest wisely!

  • derrybderryb Posts: 36,945 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Deathstar_69 said:
    Thanks for the warning! Counterfeit gold bars are a serious concern. Sticking to trusted dealers like APMEX, JM Bullion, and Bullion Exchange is the safest bet. Also, checking for security features like assay cards and serial numbers can help avoid fakes. Stay safe and invest wisely!

    Assay carded bars are also being counterfeited

    The government is incapable of ever managing the economy. That is why communism collapsed. It is now socialism’s turn - Martin Armstrong

  • GreenstangGreenstang Posts: 1,162 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Do NOT go by the card or number as being genuine. As mentioned by derryb, these are
    also counterfeited and many times discrepencies in the printing is the easiest way to
    tell a counterfeit from a genuine bar.

  • MsMorrisineMsMorrisine Posts: 33,240 ✭✭✭✭✭

    sometimes the plastic is wrong

    Current maintainer of Stone's Master List of Favorite Websites // My BST transactions
  • derrybderryb Posts: 36,945 ✭✭✭✭✭

    fortunately the Sigma is reliable when verifying assay carded bars and slabbed coins.

    The government is incapable of ever managing the economy. That is why communism collapsed. It is now socialism’s turn - Martin Armstrong

  • Bayard1908Bayard1908 Posts: 4,054 ✭✭✭✭

    @derryb said:
    fortunately the Sigma is reliable when verifying assay carded bars and slabbed coins.

    I'm intrigued by this Sigma machine. Most of my posts on this forum are in the Metal Detecting section, and I regularly go metal detecting for old silver coins. My favorite metal detector model, the Minelab Etrac, can tell me the denomination of a coin in the ground, and usually can also tell me if the coin will be silver or clad.

    From what I see, the Sigma appears to be a very basic metal detector, with probably the technology of a $100 hobby metal detector; but, because it is marketed as a specialty item, and is set up for table top use, it costs $1000. Please correct me if I'm mistaken. Does the Sigma do anything other than transmit and receive an electro-magnetic field?

    If not, a good quality hobby metal detector would seem to be more than adequate for verifying the authenticity of coins, as long as you had a genuine specimen to use as a reference. Subsequent genuine coins of the same type should all give the same signal as the reference specimen. The only silver U.S. coins I know of that have an inconsistent metallic composition are war nickels.

    Gold coins and bars should be verifiable in the same way, although I have never tried it.

  • derrybderryb Posts: 36,945 ✭✭✭✭✭

    sigma does not identify precious metal. It verifies it after you have told it what metal and its precious metal content (%) to verify. I have to set it on .999% gold to verify a gold buffalo is authentic. I have to then select 90% gold to verify a gold Saint.

    It tells me if I am buying an authentic gold or silver coin, but I must first tell it what coin (or bar) I am testing.

    The government is incapable of ever managing the economy. That is why communism collapsed. It is now socialism’s turn - Martin Armstrong

  • jdimmickjdimmick Posts: 9,691 ✭✭✭✭✭

    XRF is not fool proof either. I dont have one due to cost, but I have seen a couple of times where plated was so heavy it didn't detect , Showed as good. Mine was on a piece of jewelry I had local pawn shop check, turned out bad after it was refined, and a local shop who uses XRF bought a couple fake bars that showed as ok.

  • blitzdudeblitzdude Posts: 5,961 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @jdimmick said:
    XRF is not fool proof either. I dont have one due to cost, but I have seen a couple of times where plated was so heavy it didn't detect , Showed as good. Mine was on a piece of jewelry I had local pawn shop check, turned out bad after it was refined, and a local shop who uses XRF bought a couple fake bars that showed as ok.

    True but much more reliable than the sigma. THKS!

    The whole worlds off its rocker, buy Gold™.
    BOOMIN!™

  • derrybderryb Posts: 36,945 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @blitzdude said:

    @jdimmick said:
    XRF is not fool proof either. I dont have one due to cost, but I have seen a couple of times where plated was so heavy it didn't detect , Showed as good. Mine was on a piece of jewelry I had local pawn shop check, turned out bad after it was refined, and a local shop who uses XRF bought a couple fake bars that showed as ok.

    True but much more reliable than the sigma. THKS!

    do you own one? If so please inform us when it was reliable.

    Or did you just read something on the internet where nothing is true? Try Coho's internet, it is 100% reliable, LOL

    The government is incapable of ever managing the economy. That is why communism collapsed. It is now socialism’s turn - Martin Armstrong

  • blitzdudeblitzdude Posts: 5,961 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @derryb said:

    @blitzdude said:

    @jdimmick said:
    XRF is not fool proof either. I dont have one due to cost, but I have seen a couple of times where plated was so heavy it didn't detect , Showed as good. Mine was on a piece of jewelry I had local pawn shop check, turned out bad after it was refined, and a local shop who uses XRF bought a couple fake bars that showed as ok.

    True but much more reliable than the sigma. THKS!

    do you own one? If so please inform us when it was reliable.

    Or did you just read something on the internet where nothing is true? Try Coho's internet, it is 100% reliable, LOL

    Yes, I sat in a coin shop several years back and watched first hand, plated Chinese garbage passing the Sigma. RGDS!

    The whole worlds off its rocker, buy Gold™.
    BOOMIN!™

  • derrybderryb Posts: 36,945 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited December 14, 2024 10:23AM

    @blitzdude said:

    @derryb said:

    @blitzdude said:

    @jdimmick said:
    XRF is not fool proof either. I dont have one due to cost, but I have seen a couple of times where plated was so heavy it didn't detect , Showed as good. Mine was on a piece of jewelry I had local pawn shop check, turned out bad after it was refined, and a local shop who uses XRF bought a couple fake bars that showed as ok.

    True but much more reliable than the sigma. THKS!

    do you own one? If so please inform us when it was reliable.

    Or did you just read something on the internet where nothing is true? Try Coho's internet, it is 100% reliable, LOL

    Yes, I sat in a coin shop several years back and watched first hand, plated Chinese garbage passing the Sigma. RGDS!

    must be operator or observer error.

    Mine works just fine identifying plated Chinese garbage. I occasionally buy obviously plated items on ebay just to keep testing the Sigma. Ebay always gives me a refund on the counterfeits and sometimes I get to keep them. So far none of them have gotten by the Sigma. Maybe your coin shop has a Chinese Sigma.

    The government is incapable of ever managing the economy. That is why communism collapsed. It is now socialism’s turn - Martin Armstrong

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