3. All new dies produce above average coins for the first few hundred strikes. This gradually fades. These coins are no more "special" than the last ones made before condemnation.
>
This may have been essentially true at one time but no more. Dies vary in detail and in other qualities and some are even made on steel with severe internal flaws or improperly hardened. They went into different types of presses in 1964 run at different speeds and adjusted to different pressures based on the spacing of the dies. Many brand new coins were barely kissed by bad dies. Then these dies wore very slowly and made far more coins than most. Some years like 1982 no dies were properly installed (in Philly) so the coins would receive a complete strike. Only a few were even "close enough for government work".
Generally the best coins are first strike but many collectors prefer nice solid strikes from older dies that create a cartwheel effect. I would rather have a full strike from from more worn dies than A PL first strike from badly installed dies. I like to see what went right and it's only natural that even the best dies and perfectly adjusted wear out over time. Banged up badly made coins have been the norm since the early '50's or even sooner. I prefer clean and well made.
San Francisco struck nearly 20 million 1964 dated quarters between 1965 and the first quarter of 1966. They also struck all 5 denominations of the 1965 dated SMS coins in 1966. It wouldn’t be a stretch to believe a few of these 1964 dated coins were struck on both SMS and regular planchets.
My understanding is all PCGS certified 1964 SMS all came from the same group of coins. I’ve seen reference in various auction listings they may have come from Eva Adam’s, a Mint Director, estate.
There's never been any confirmation of the speculation that the coins came from the estate of Eva Adams. And based on events that were reported to me, which I've posted here, at least some of the coins were apparently consigned to Stack's by the wife of N.Y. coin dealer Lester Merkin, after he passed away in 1992.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
There's never been any confirmation of the speculation that the coins came from the estate of Eva Adams. And based on events that were reported to me, which I've posted here, at least some of the coins were apparently consigned to Stack's by the wife of N.Y. coin dealer Lester Merkin, after he passed away in 1992.
That's why I said "may." I've also read the auction references to Lester Merkin as well.
That coin (at least from photos) doesn't seem particularly attractive or special aside from having the die markers.
I tend to agree with you that these "SMS" coins are nothing special, but rather are early strikes. I've had the privilege of owning one, too. It was the 1964 "SMS" dime. As I recall, it was highly reflective with many, many die scratches all over it. Maybe I will find the photos and update this post. But, I sold it many years ago because it was quite frankly, pretty boring. I felt if I ever cracked it out of its PCGS slabbed, it would be worth what a normal 1964 dime is in that grade. The differences we are trying to assign here really don't stand out that much.
And I personally wouldn't want to tie so much money up in a coin like that.
Will we ever know for sure if they're special strikes? Nope. Without records, we can only speculate that they're probably normal. And for those owning them, they are absolutely special. They wouldn't have paid up for them if they didn't believe. I get it. I once believed.
If anything is special about these, I think it is in the planchet prep or striking pressure. You've already shown that the dies were used in business strikes. That certainly wouldn't preclude the dies from being used formerly for presentation strikes, but it is very interesting.
My uneducated guess is that they struck a batch to give to the Smithsonian (as you lrived) and these certified "SMS" 1964's are the leftovers, retained by someone connected to the Mint and given to Lester Merkin, whose widow made a killing in the 1990s auctions. The story grew, and like the game of telephone we filled in the gaps and the message is different from where it began.
Dead Cat Waltz Exonumia
"Coin collecting for outcasts..."
....
If anything is special about these, I think it is in the planchet prep or striking pressure. You've already shown that the dies were used in business strikes. That certainly wouldn't preclude the dies from being used formerly for presentation strikes, but it is very interesting.
Has anyone looked into the possible significance, or not, of the fact that many new/refurbished coin presses, blank presses and annealing equipment, were obtained and put into operation at Philly in 1964:
Eva Adam’s Congressional Testimony, February 8, 1966:
Miss ADAMS:
In July 1964, the mint embarked on a crash program to end the coin shortage…
At the beginning of the program the critical needs were for production equipment, space, and trained employees. 'Through cooperative efforts of the Department of Defense and the General Services Administration, the mint was able to locate and obtain 16 coining presses and 16 blanking presses, annealing and cleaning equipment, and other support equipment….
Some specific actions taken to implement the crash program were:
(1) Obtained, without charge, production and support equipment with acquisition value of approximately $1,200,000 from the Department of Defense and the General Services Administration. Department of Defense converted the equipment for coinage production for the mint at cost….
New dies, and new machinery converted outside the mint by the Department of Defense….
Here are my old pics, regrettably with photobucket watermark:
Though I did find the Heritage pictures from when the guy I sold it to auctioned it off for twice the price:
Just seems rather plain for six grand in my opinion.
Dead Cat Waltz Exonumia
"Coin collecting for outcasts..."
@robec said:
San Francisco struck nearly 20 million 1964 dated quarters between 1965 and the first quarter of 1966. They also struck all 5 denominations of the 1965 dated SMS coins in 1966. It wouldn’t be a stretch to believe a few of these 1964 dated coins were struck on both SMS and regular planchets.
How were SMS planchets different than regular circulation planchets?
I thought difference was striking speed and pressure.
they could have been put through the same polishing set up on the same machine
the different lettering can ONLY be explained by different dies. don't ALL the die characteristics have to match? well, on these coins ALL DO not MATCH! different dies!
@MsMorrisine said:
die polish? versus DIFFERENT LETTERING?
they could have been put through the same polishing set up on the same machine
the different lettering can ONLY be explained by different dies. don't ALL the die characteristics have to match? well, on these coins ALL DO not MATCH! different dies!
Details of the dies change over time as they are used. The appearance of the letters and other markings can change as the dies wear down.
Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value. Zero. Voltaire. Ebay coinbowlllc
@ChrisH821 said:
Being from the same die pair doesn't mean anything, unless you are poking at the legitimacy of the 1964 SMS coins. It certainly wouldn't be the first time a "special" die pair was reused by the Mint, 1921 proof Peace Dollars come to mind, I'm sure there are others.
The proof dies from the 1868 dimes were used for circ coins.
@MsMorrisine said:
die polish? versus DIFFERENT LETTERING?
they could have been put through the same polishing set up on the same machine
the different lettering can ONLY be explained by different dies. don't ALL the die characteristics have to match? well, on these coins ALL DO not MATCH! different dies!
Do you really think in 1964 they had an automatic setting on some die polishing machine that could turn out the same miniscule lines on different dies?
Cmon man
Dead Cat Waltz Exonumia
"Coin collecting for outcasts..."
@MsMorrisine said:
die polish? versus DIFFERENT LETTERING?
they could have been put through the same polishing set up on the same machine
the different lettering can ONLY be explained by different dies. don't ALL the die characteristics have to match? well, on these coins ALL DO not MATCH! different dies!
Do you really think in 1964 they had an automatic setting on some die polishing machine that could turn out the same miniscule lines on different dies?
Cmon man
you lock it in the machine and the same tool inside that polishes die 1 can polish die 2
the die polish doesn't match so the second is counterfeit? perhaps you could authenticate it another way... that includes looking at the matching lettering
@MsMorrisine said:
die polish? versus DIFFERENT LETTERING?
they could have been put through the same polishing set up on the same machine
the different lettering can ONLY be explained by different dies. don't ALL the die characteristics have to match? well, on these coins ALL DO not MATCH! different dies!
Do you really think in 1964 they had an automatic setting on some die polishing machine that could turn out the same miniscule lines on different dies?
Cmon man
you lock it in the machine and the same tool inside that polishes die 1 can polish die 2
I really hope you are drinking right now, old friend 😆
And now I need one, too
Dead Cat Waltz Exonumia
"Coin collecting for outcasts..."
"1. No "Special Mint Sets" ever existed before those produced in 1965-66-67. Thus, by definition, there can be no "1964 SMS" coins of any kind.
2. All US Mint correspondence refers to the annual sample pieces sent to the museum in 1964-63-63 etc. as "uncirculated" or "circulation" coins. Note this is the same description given to George Goddard at the Connecticut State Library when T. Louis Comparette sent him (and several museums) newly struck coins. (See CT state archives for extensive correspondence, Van Block State Library Storage Facility, Hartford and New Haven.)
3. All new dies produce above average coins for the first few hundred strikes. This gradually fades. These coins are no more "special" than the last ones made before condemnation.
4. Without explicit evidence otherwise, all one can say is that certain coins are better struck and/or have more uniform surfaces than others made from the same dies.
The entire "1964 SMS" episode began as an ignorant speculation. But after FlyingAl's research, to continue this is a charade and a fraud."
My understanding is all PCGS certified 1964 SMS all came from the same group of coins. I’ve seen reference in various auction listings they may have come from Eva Adam’s, a Mint Director, estate.
Long ago while she was alive I heard she was a collector. It would make sense that the Mint might have run some experiments in 1964 to see what they must have planned for '65 to replace Proof Sets. If so, the insiders get things like aluminum cents, '64 Peace dollars, etc.
My understanding is all PCGS certified 1964 SMS all came from the same group of coins. I’ve seen reference in various auction listings they may have come from Eva Adam’s, a Mint Director, estate.
Long ago while she was alive I heard she was a collector. It would make sense that the Mint might have run some experiments in 1964 to see what they must have planned for '65 to replace Proof Sets. If so, the insiders get things like aluminum cents, '64 Peace dollars, etc.
She could have just taken the trial strikes home. This was to be the last silver quarters to be struck. If she was a collector and had the power and access I can totally see her going down to the floor at the start and take some of those coins. I certainly would have.
Comments
>
This may have been essentially true at one time but no more. Dies vary in detail and in other qualities and some are even made on steel with severe internal flaws or improperly hardened. They went into different types of presses in 1964 run at different speeds and adjusted to different pressures based on the spacing of the dies. Many brand new coins were barely kissed by bad dies. Then these dies wore very slowly and made far more coins than most. Some years like 1982 no dies were properly installed (in Philly) so the coins would receive a complete strike. Only a few were even "close enough for government work".
Generally the best coins are first strike but many collectors prefer nice solid strikes from older dies that create a cartwheel effect. I would rather have a full strike from from more worn dies than A PL first strike from badly installed dies. I like to see what went right and it's only natural that even the best dies and perfectly adjusted wear out over time. Banged up badly made coins have been the norm since the early '50's or even sooner. I prefer clean and well made.
San Francisco struck nearly 20 million 1964 dated quarters between 1965 and the first quarter of 1966. They also struck all 5 denominations of the 1965 dated SMS coins in 1966. It wouldn’t be a stretch to believe a few of these 1964 dated coins were struck on both SMS and regular planchets.
- Bob -
MPL's - Lincolns of Color
Central Valley Roosevelts
There's never been any confirmation of the speculation that the coins came from the estate of Eva Adams. And based on events that were reported to me, which I've posted here, at least some of the coins were apparently consigned to Stack's by the wife of N.Y. coin dealer Lester Merkin, after he passed away in 1992.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
That's why I said "may." I've also read the auction references to Lester Merkin as well.
Good catch @FlyingAl
That coin (at least from photos) doesn't seem particularly attractive or special aside from having the die markers.
I tend to agree with you that these "SMS" coins are nothing special, but rather are early strikes. I've had the privilege of owning one, too. It was the 1964 "SMS" dime. As I recall, it was highly reflective with many, many die scratches all over it. Maybe I will find the photos and update this post. But, I sold it many years ago because it was quite frankly, pretty boring. I felt if I ever cracked it out of its PCGS slabbed, it would be worth what a normal 1964 dime is in that grade. The differences we are trying to assign here really don't stand out that much.
And I personally wouldn't want to tie so much money up in a coin like that.
Will we ever know for sure if they're special strikes? Nope. Without records, we can only speculate that they're probably normal. And for those owning them, they are absolutely special. They wouldn't have paid up for them if they didn't believe. I get it. I once believed.
If anything is special about these, I think it is in the planchet prep or striking pressure. You've already shown that the dies were used in business strikes. That certainly wouldn't preclude the dies from being used formerly for presentation strikes, but it is very interesting.
My uneducated guess is that they struck a batch to give to the Smithsonian (as you lrived) and these certified "SMS" 1964's are the leftovers, retained by someone connected to the Mint and given to Lester Merkin, whose widow made a killing in the 1990s auctions. The story grew, and like the game of telephone we filled in the gaps and the message is different from where it began.
Dead Cat Waltz Exonumia
"Coin collecting for outcasts..."
these are not polish line that could have been imparted by the same machine
if the lettering is wrong, then it couldn't be the same die, right?
the vertical on the sms 4 on the inside is curved as it approaches the crossbar
>
Has anyone looked into the possible significance, or not, of the fact that many new/refurbished coin presses, blank presses and annealing equipment, were obtained and put into operation at Philly in 1964:
Eva Adam’s Congressional Testimony, February 8, 1966:
Miss ADAMS:
In July 1964, the mint embarked on a crash program to end the coin shortage…
At the beginning of the program the critical needs were for production equipment, space, and trained employees. 'Through cooperative efforts of the Department of Defense and the General Services Administration, the mint was able to locate and obtain 16 coining presses and 16 blanking presses, annealing and cleaning equipment, and other support equipment….
Some specific actions taken to implement the crash program were:
(1) Obtained, without charge, production and support equipment with acquisition value of approximately $1,200,000 from the Department of Defense and the General Services Administration. Department of Defense converted the equipment for coinage production for the mint at cost….
New dies, and new machinery converted outside the mint by the Department of Defense….
Here are my old pics, regrettably with photobucket watermark:
Though I did find the Heritage pictures from when the guy I sold it to auctioned it off for twice the price:
Just seems rather plain for six grand in my opinion.
Dead Cat Waltz Exonumia
"Coin collecting for outcasts..."
@MsMorrisine
I could be wrong, but the differences you are noting appear to be with the lighting.
Dead Cat Waltz Exonumia
"Coin collecting for outcasts..."
both 4's are well lit
the vertical on the N may be dark, but the outline is clear
the top of the W is clear
i've nailed at least 3 lit differences on the lettering. it's not the same die
Do you not see all the other markers?
If they were snakes, they'd have bitten you!
Dead Cat Waltz Exonumia
"Coin collecting for outcasts..."
How were SMS planchets different than regular circulation planchets?
I thought difference was striking speed and pressure.
die polish? versus DIFFERENT LETTERING?
they could have been put through the same polishing set up on the same machine
the different lettering can ONLY be explained by different dies. don't ALL the die characteristics have to match? well, on these coins ALL DO not MATCH! different dies!
Details of the dies change over time as they are used. The appearance of the letters and other markings can change as the dies wear down.
Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value. Zero. Voltaire. Ebay coinbowlllc
like letters getting thinner? i think not!
The proof dies from the 1868 dimes were used for circ coins.
worn dies don't provide better definition
Do you really think in 1964 they had an automatic setting on some die polishing machine that could turn out the same miniscule lines on different dies?
Cmon man
Dead Cat Waltz Exonumia
"Coin collecting for outcasts..."
Your photos are proving it. The dies lines are a match and too many to be just chance. I think he is correct in so much as the dies are the same.
too many letter differences to be a match
you lock it in the machine and the same tool inside that polishes die 1 can polish die 2
i take a mpl die and polish it between stries
the die polish doesn't match so the second is counterfeit? perhaps you could authenticate it another way... that includes looking at the matching lettering
Not that my opinion matters but I think @FlyingAl is correct. Enough said, too many people doubted him on the 21 Satin and well, he was right lol.
I really hope you are drinking right now, old friend 😆
And now I need one, too
Dead Cat Waltz Exonumia
"Coin collecting for outcasts..."
die wear changes? that a big change.
are there locations all over the coin showing so much die wear and changes? if no, why not?
I have to fil in time before bed
die polish lines shooting out radially from the end of the feathers
I see the shooting lines!
but where did those vertical die polish lines go?
Thanks for posting the Roger B. opinion. Funny, I logged on tonight to mention the CAC discussion but I have yet to read it.
Long ago while she was alive I heard she was a collector. It would make sense that the Mint might have run some experiments in 1964 to see what they must have planned for '65 to replace Proof Sets. If so, the insiders get things like aluminum cents, '64 Peace dollars, etc.
It does look kind of special though.
She could have just taken the trial strikes home. This was to be the last silver quarters to be struck. If she was a collector and had the power and access I can totally see her going down to the floor at the start and take some of those coins. I certainly would have.