Price Gouging - One Reason Collectors Dislike Slabs
John Conduitt
Posts: 419 ✭✭✭
I know there are many reasons, but this is jarring. Slabs and the false concept of 'top pop' used to justify high prices. This seller lists coins at twice, five or even twenty times what you could buy them for, and yet makes hundreds of sales.
Why? Is it that some people are too rich to care? If so, they can drop me $6300 for nothing if they wouldn't miss it. Or that they are so mesmarised by the slab that they can't see they'd be better off buying 20 raw coins instead?
It is a nice coin, but "practically never encountered in such lofty technical excellence"? It might be 'top pop' but that is nonsense. These were hoarded a lot, and if you can find one that was well-struck, they are generally nice. Here's mine. The same coin type from the same hoard. It cost me $260. Yours at the bargain price of $5500.
NGC can't even spell "hoard". Truly awful.
Comments
https://coins.ha.com/itm/great-britain/great-britain-charles-i-shilling-nd-1641-1643-ms64-ngc-/a/3114-33586.s?ic4=ListView-Thumbnail-071515#
Sold at HA earlier this year for $1,920
https://numismaticmuse.com/ My Web Gallery
The best collecting goals lie right on the border between the possible and the impossible. - Andy Lustig, "MrEureka"
I agree that a $6500 ask seems high. But perhaps the seller thinks he got it for a bargain. Or he is starting off high as a negotiating point. Or it's a really thin market and he expects to sit on the coin for years. Or he bought it from whoever bought it at HA and his cost is higher.
You're mistaken though when you say "This seller lists coins at twice, five or even twenty times what you could buy them for". This coin is only available from the seller so you can't buy it for less than he is willing to sell it for.
And to compare it to your coin is totally irrelevant. The subject coin is MUCH more attractive than your coin. It's night and day. There is a reason your coin was significantly less expensive and it's because your coin is a worse coin by a long shot.
So here is my takeaway. One Reason Collectors **Like **Slabs - It's much less likely they buy problem coins and think they are problem-free, condition census coins.
Wouldn’t it make more sense to direct one’s anger at coin dealers?
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Yes. You could argue that the slabs make the dealer behaviors more transparent.
IG: DeCourcyCoinsEbay: neilrobertson
"Numismatic categorizations, if left unconstrained, will increase spontaneously over time." -me
A coin doesn't have to be in a slab for someone to bait a hook like that on eBay. It doesn't even have to be real. I'd rather direct my ire at those that practice attempted price gouging.
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars • Variety Attribution
Top pops in British hammered coinage really does not mean much given the surviving population and most of it remains raw.
The quality and completeness of the flan is a critical factor for determining grade and value. The one graded by NGC looks amazing. However, even as amazing as it may be, the premium for such coins has not evolved the way it has in the US coin market. Condition rarity likely will take more time for acceptance within the UK for several reasons… most notably differences in grading.
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
For hammered coinage, it's far more difficult to split hairs with grades and corresponding values the way they're done on more modern coins simply because they're so inconsistent by comparison. If you consider what the ideal hammered coin would look like, the four-dimensional grading domain for modern stuff (surface preservation, strike strength, luster, eye appeal) grows to include other facets of strike such as centering, planchet roundness (for round coins), lack of strike doubling. Establishing what is "best" (i.e., worth the most) becomes much more complicated.
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars • Variety Attribution
Hammered not my area, but I understand the OP and his thoughts - I am in agreement, and this holds for later pre-decimal coins as well honestly. I know this seller (and "they" are not alone as there is another even more notorious) and this has been his MO for a long time and tend to put more of the onus on him rather than the slabbing.
Having said that, the notion of "top pops" is objectionable to my point of view and have refused to participate even though arguably I could blow out the top rated registry sets in my area. So what, other than a bit of good ole American ego-boosting BS.
Well, just Love coins, period.
I think there is no point to complain someone trying to sell a coin high price. If you can buy it from someone else cheaper then just buy the cheaper one. If can’t find another one cheaper and don’t want to pay high price for it then move on and forget about it. Or talk to the seller to see if he wants to sell it cheaper. I see many unreasonable high price coin on eBay. I just move on or say WOW. Sometimes you think is hight maybe actually it is not high. It is very hard to put an exact market price for a rare coin. I see many examples that a coin sell for double the price than previous sale or lot cheaper.
I hate to disagree with you but I think many people like slab coins. It makes coin easy to buy or sell. Many high graded coins sell for very high price that raw coin can never be able to get. That’s the fact whether you like it or not.
I agree that the whole concept of "Top Pop" seems crazy for many older world and ancient coins.
At the same time, third party grading helps reveal how few coins are problem free. So many coins in the era I collect are cleaned, smoother, removed from (jewelry) holders, etc. Getting one into a problem free holder is tough! (or you get lucky!)
I get "paying up" for a TPG, especially if you are bidding in an auction without great photos.
My current "Box of 20"
The TPGs continue to have a difficult time with consistent grading of hammered coins, which probably should be graded more like ancients than like modern coins.
Inconsistencies in planchets, strikes, centering, metal content, and the effects of hundreds of years in the ground add to the challenge of reliably assigning numeric grades.
Thus you still see grades all over the map for coins that appear in similar states of preservation.
It can be an opportunity for some who care about such things, and an annoyance for those who don’t.
I understand the OP's frustration. I am one of those, however, who likes slabs, at least for more pricey coins. In the pre-slab days, the person who graded the coin often was the same person who sold you the coin - a clear conflict of interest (in theory if not always in practice). In my own case, I can't differentiate between an MS69 and an MS70. So if I wanted an MS70 coin, I'd prefer a 3rd-party graded and slabbed coin.
What I do dislike a bit, however, is the proliferation of slab labels (first strike labels, advance release labels, signature labels, etc). These seem to be pure marketing, with little relation to the quality of the coin. Am I wrong?
You're not wrong. I view these as subsidizing plain, vanilla grading that I use. If TPGs couldn't make money on meaningless labels, their fees for grading would be higher.
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars • Variety Attribution
Price gouging didn’t start with TPG’s and it won’t end if they’re gone.
I'm BACK!!! Used to be Billet7 on the old forum.
In this collector game there is always people with more money than you . You always
Lose as they don't mind or feel it financialy by over bidding to whatever just to own it and WIN!
Especially on super grades .
I bid to the moon over what its worth they bid to Neptune. But they will lose money when it's time to sell.
They don't care, they have the bragging rights and deep pockets!
I now compete against myself in the Registrys. Trying to maximize the number of upgrades every year. Maybe on the more common dates. Willing
To Paying more for larger point upgrades. " PATIENCE GRASSHOPPER".
They come but it's slow. Conservations, resubmitting for regrades is cheaper than nuclear bids against deep pockets and possibly hurting you financially.. this strategy works but you won't get to the best set in the Registry.
Though you may make them a bit nervous as you slowly grow.
over the years, I've noticed that UK collectors often place less emphasis on surface quality than strike, so well-struck cleaned coins are desirable, but in a world where frost is boss at PCGS and NGC, those coins get lower grades
Sorry, but you are not correct.
Of course you can't literally buy that same coin. But there are hundreds of these, all as struck, like mine.
My coin is not MUCH worse. It is not 'night and day'. Mine has a less complete flan (because it was struck at the mint like that during the English Civil War, which is actually more interesting). But to think one could be worth $6500 is absolutely laughable.
The problem is that it doesn't. It allows the dealer to say 'top pop' when the coin is unlikely to be, or is one amongst many more. It's just not many have been slabbed. The problem is indeed the TPG, since they publish population statistics when they have such sparse populations.
Another to defend if you desire. It's a nice example, but $810? This seller has 4.8K sales and 220 followers.
"Only 1 finer". It's not even TOP POP yet commands a price 8+ times its value. There are only 4 graded, with one lower (plus a few with details grades). But, in fact, there are two more graded with slightly different descriptions that are actually the same coin. These are both in a higher grade. So this coin is joint 4th of 6. Funny the seller doesn't mention that, but does use the word 'rare' three times, using the NGC's lack of population for that assessment.
But wait! The seller has missed a trick, since it IS top pop. It isn't attributed correctly. It's S 3184, not S 3183, and no others have been graded. Do NGC check these things?
But it's still not worth $810. Its apparent 'rarity' is because S 3183 includes a great number of varieties that have been grouped, while S 3184 has been split out on the basis of the punctuation in the legends. Of course, there are many more of these than on NGC's website and hardly anyone gets them graded. S 3184 (trefoil) is described as 'scarce' by Everson, which is one down from 'common'.
The examples of S 3183 that go for high prices have rare privy marks, not high grades. So 'top pop' is not even the right thing to be looking for.
Yes, buyer beware. Sure, I could also slab coins in sparsely populated categories and sell them as "finest of all" for hugely inflated prices. I could also pretend to be a Nigerian prince who needs your help to unlock a fortune in an inaccessible bank account.
Sounds like it’s the buyer’s responsibility to decide how much they are willing to pay for something. As always.
If people are willing to pay more for sparsely-populated certified coins, that’s their responsibility, regardless of whether that population is meaningful or not.
However, a dealer would act as a professional to at least employ a modicum of due diligence.
Well, just Love coins, period.
that would be nice, but you should never expect the other party to any transaction to look out for you, and anyway, this hobby is full of dealers who price their coins to the moon for various reasons, which is fine, anyone can ask whatever they want - it's not something to criticize, just politely pass and find a similar coin for much less
the last market sale of the shilling in question - at the biggest auction house with most if not all interested eyes - was at $1900 so that's what the world thought it was worth at that moment, you can't let dealers with high markups bug you or slow you down - you just make a mental note and move on - there's no shortage of stuff to spend your money on instead. For example, lots of much more desirable coins sold at that same auction for about $6500
like this for $6600...
for $5500...
or much less at $2000...
imho, have fun, don't waste mental energy on prices that don't seem to make sense, and always caveat emptor