Official Unanswerable Numismatic Question Thread

CaptHenway

Legitimate Numismatic questions that nobody can answer (including me).

Here’s one that I have been struggling with for years. When the Mint opened Branch Mints in 1838, it shipped new dies to them in an unhardened, or “un-tempered” state so that if the dies went astray in transit they would be of limited use to a counterfeiter. Each Mint would harden and basin each die for use.

The question is, when did Philadelphia stop shipping unhardened dies and start shipping hardened dies? The latest unhardened dies I can document are in the late 1870’s, but the change could have been decades after that.

COINS MAKE CENTS

Why do so many dealers have mustard stains on their shirts, but no other condiment stains? Ketchup? Coffee? I've struggled with this for years

Sanddollar

1- Why is abbreviation such a long word?
2- Is there another word for thesaurus?
3- How does the snowplough driver get to work?
4- Why do clairvoyants never win the lottery?
5- What was the best thing before sliced bread?
6- If there were two of every creature in Noah's Ark, where were the woodpeckers kept?
7- Why is there only one Monopolies Commission?
8- Has anyone ever actually killed two birds with one stone?
9- If love is blind, how can we believe in love at first sight?
10- Why do lists usually consist of the Top Ten of something?

DocBenjamin

Why does GC apologize when I lose a lot only to congratulate the dope that outbid me.

lermish

Why was the trade dollar wide cc reverse die kept and re-used sporadically for four years?

OAKSTAR

@CaptHenway said:
Legitimate Numismatic questions that nobody can answer (including me).

Here’s one that I have been struggling with for years. When the Mint opened Branch Mints in 1838, it shipped new dies to them in an unhardened, or “un-tempered” state so that if the dies went astray in transit they would be of limited use to a counterfeiter. Each Mint would harden and basin each die for use.

The question is, when did Philadelphia stop shipping unhardened dies and start shipping hardened dies? The latest unhardened dies I can document are in the late 1870’s, but the change could have been decades after that.

Is there a mint archives somewhere? I don't know, I'm just asking. Who would be the numismatic/mint historian
go-to guy in today's world?

FlyingAl

@lermish said:
Why was the trade dollar wide cc reverse die kept and re-used sporadically for four years?

Dies are expensive.

Rexford

Were any of the large berry proof half cents of 1840-49 (and 52) struck in the year shown on the coin, or are they all restrikes?

How many of the pre-1836 US coins that are currently graded as proofs or specimens are just business strikes? (Most of them, I suspect)

BLUEJAYWAY

Asked this many years ago in all seriousness. Never even got an amusing response. "Why is the E in "WE" in "In God We Trust" on the Lincoln cent lower?

MsMorrisine

@OAKSTAR said:

@CaptHenway said:
Legitimate Numismatic questions that nobody can answer (including me).

Here’s one that I have been struggling with for years. When the Mint opened Branch Mints in 1838, it shipped new dies to them in an unhardened, or “un-tempered” state so that if the dies went astray in transit they would be of limited use to a counterfeiter. Each Mint would harden and basin each die for use.

The question is, when did Philadelphia stop shipping unhardened dies and start shipping hardened dies? The latest unhardened dies I can document are in the late 1870’s, but the change could have been decades after that.

Is there a mint archives somewhere? I don't know, I'm just asking. Who would be the numismatic/mint historian
go-to guy in today's world?

paper archives are in the national archives - numismatic items are kept somewhere and there is a mint employee curator for them

MsMorrisine

how much money has been lost due to coins falling into mint presses?

MsMorrisine

who approved the spaghetti hair?

OAKSTAR

I'm a simple man. I have a question: I would just like to know EXACTLY who (an engravers name would be nice) modified or altered these die. EXACTLY where these dies were modified. EXACTLY when these dies were modified. And EXACTLY why these dies were modified.

I'm not interested in speculation.

Basically, what's the big secret? Is it a national security risk? A privacy act issue? A threat to national security? Exactly what is the big deal about this? Why is it so difficult to get the facts? There's no documentation, logs or records kept at the mint for something like this?

There are many unanswered question with these types of issues on coins.

2004-D Wisconsin extra leaf.

Crypto

Where is the San Fran corner stone

lermish

@FlyingAl said:

@lermish said:
Why was the trade dollar wide cc reverse die kept and re-used sporadically for four years?

Dies are expensive.

But then a lot more of them would have been kept for multi year periods. There were some (not many) that were used in two different years in a limited fashion. None were used for three years. This one was used for (presumably based on survival) very few strikes across four years. And it has a very distinctive mint mark.

I have to think there was more to it than thriftiness.

PerryHall

@CaptHenway said:
Legitimate Numismatic questions that nobody can answer (including me).

Here’s one that I have been struggling with for years. When the Mint opened Branch Mints in 1838, it shipped new dies to them in an unhardened, or “un-tempered” state so that if the dies went astray in transit they would be of limited use to a counterfeiter. Each Mint would harden and basin each die for use.

The question is, when did Philadelphia stop shipping unhardened dies and start shipping hardened dies? The latest unhardened dies I can document are in the late 1870’s, but the change could have been decades after that.

The mint would not ship both the obverse die and the reverse die in the same package to thwart anyone who stole the package in transit.

Namvet69

George Carlin is smiling down on us.

coastaljerseyguy

If a privy is an outhouse toilet, why are folks paying so much and getting so excited over acquiring them.

Project Numismatics

Who are all the crazy people dropping valuable coins in the parking lot at Walmart?!

jmlanzaf

@lermish said:
Why was the trade dollar wide cc reverse die kept and re-used sporadically for four years?

Dies are expensive. They used them until they couldn't. Part of the reason for many of the overdates.

seatedlib3991

I have had the same unanswered questions for years. How did thousands of New Orleans silver dollars from 1859 and 1860 end up in the vaults of Philadelphia? Why were they basically impounded for a 100 years? Were they considered tainted in some way because of the break in the chain of custody? Why didn't they just melt them? They melted millions of other coins. James

dsessom

Why do we drive on a Parkway, and park on a Driveway?

logger7

What happened to the other 1849 Double Eagle, besides the Smithsonian example?

Possibly a similar fate to a former club member's collection; he had a stroke last year and the heirs had the painters throw everything out including books of coins in the condo to facilitate a quick real estate deal.

CaptHenway

@PerryHall said:

@CaptHenway said:
Legitimate Numismatic questions that nobody can answer (including me).

Here’s one that I have been struggling with for years. When the Mint opened Branch Mints in 1838, it shipped new dies to them in an unhardened, or “un-tempered” state so that if the dies went astray in transit they would be of limited use to a counterfeiter. Each Mint would harden and basin each die for use.

The question is, when did Philadelphia stop shipping unhardened dies and start shipping hardened dies? The latest unhardened dies I can document are in the late 1870’s, but the change could have been decades after that.

The mint would not ship both the obverse die and the reverse die in the same package to thwart anyone who stole the package in transit.

That would be a good idea, but can you document it?

Also, FWIW, if there was such a plan there would have to be exceptions to it now and then, such as when Philadelphia sent five pairs of the first revision 1922 Peace Dollar dies to Denver on January 6, 1922 so they could immediately begin production, but by the time they got there Philadelphia had already determined that the first revision did not strike up well enough either, and the dies were returned to Philadelphia and destroyed.

The_Dinosaur_Man

If intelligent alien civilizations exist, do they have and collect coins too?

CaptHenway

BTW, I am quite serious about wanting to know when the Philadelphia Mint STOPPED shipping unhardened dies to the branch mints and STARTED sending pre-hardened dies. The information does not appear to be available anywhere.

PerryHall

@CaptHenway said:

@PerryHall said:

@CaptHenway said:
Legitimate Numismatic questions that nobody can answer (including me).

Here’s one that I have been struggling with for years. When the Mint opened Branch Mints in 1838, it shipped new dies to them in an unhardened, or “un-tempered” state so that if the dies went astray in transit they would be of limited use to a counterfeiter. Each Mint would harden and basin each die for use.

The question is, when did Philadelphia stop shipping unhardened dies and start shipping hardened dies? The latest unhardened dies I can document are in the late 1870’s, but the change could have been decades after that.

The mint would not ship both the obverse die and the reverse die in the same package to thwart anyone who stole the package in transit.

That would be a good idea, but can you document it?

No. I read it is some coin publication many years ago. It made a lot of sense so I didn't really question it.

lermish

@jmlanzaf said:

@lermish said:
Why was the trade dollar wide cc reverse die kept and re-used sporadically for four years?

Dies are expensive. They used them until they couldn't. Part of the reason for many of the overdates.

See my note to FlyingAl above.

DocBenjamin

@CaptHenway said:
BTW, I am quite serious about wanting to know when the Philadelphia Mint STOPPED shipping unhardened dies to the branch mints and STARTED sending pre-hardened dies. The information does not appear to be available anywhere.

Could Carson City provide the answer?

""The intent was to have all die work except repair done at Philadelphia - this would ensure all dies were identical and passed Engraving Dept. examination. But San Francisco had different presses than Philadelphia and their dies were sent unhardened. Also Carson Mint received both hardened and soft dies depending on denomination and available equipment. For example, until Carson received a new Ajax large press, dollar dies were shipped soft. Once the Ajax press was in operation, the dies were hardened and tempered at Philadelphia"".

https://boards.ngccoin.com/topic/422835-from-mine-to-mint/?do=findComment&comment=9747526

Walkerguy21D

I’ve always wondered why the 1928S walker is so much scarcer in AU and MS than the 29D and S walkers, despite a higher mintage?

The stock market crash didn’t occur until late October, and the bank panics until the following year. I’d assume most of the coins were minted and in commerce channels by then, but perhaps not, and were held back. When they were released later during better economic times, people could afford to save a few.

But the opposite looks true for the standing quarters. The 28 D and S quarters have considerably higher pops than the 29 D and S coins.

johnny9434

How is it possible that in Europe it is today.
In Australia it is tomorrow.
And in Alabama it is 1890?

Baylor8670

Is this Gobrecht an original or restrike?

cladking

@OAKSTAR said:
I'm a simple man. I have a question: I would just like to know EXACTLY who (an engravers name would be nice) modified or altered these die. EXACTLY where these dies were modified. EXACTLY when these dies were modified. And EXACTLY why these dies were modified.

I'm not interested in speculation.

Basically, what's the big secret? Is it a national security risk? A privacy act issue? A threat to national security? Exactly what is the big deal about this? Why is it so difficult to get the facts? There's no documentation, logs or records kept at the mint for something like this?

There are many unanswered question with these types of issues on coins.

2004-D Wisconsin extra leaf.

What was the guy thinking when he first began the process of making these new coins?

Who at the mint and what were they thinking when the 1964 SMS's were put together?

I've long believed that we all are always motivated solely by our beliefs but what is is and then it no longer much matters who believed what. We can make inferences, deductions, and inductions about human causations but we rarely really know for certain.

Numismatics means "[study of] what has been sanctioned by custom or use,". What were the Greeks thinking? Why aren't clad coins "numismatic"?

The world is awash in imponderables.

OAKSTAR

@CaptHenway said:
BTW, I am quite serious about wanting to know when the Philadelphia Mint STOPPED shipping unhardened dies to the branch mints and STARTED sending pre-hardened dies. The information does not appear to be available anywhere.

From what I recall, there's a guy across the street, Roger something (I forget his last name), that gets down into the weeds on this stuff.

air4mdc

@OAKSTAR said:
I'm a simple man. I have a question: I would just like to know EXACTLY who (an engravers name would be nice) modified or altered these die. EXACTLY where these dies were modified. EXACTLY when these dies were modified. And EXACTLY why these dies were modified.

I'm not interested in speculation.

Basically, what's the big secret? Is it a national security risk? A privacy act issue? A threat to national security? Exactly what is the big deal about this? Why is it so difficult to get the facts? There's no documentation, logs or records kept at the mint for something like this?

There are many unanswered question with these types of issues on coins.

2004-D Wisconsin extra leaf.

I'm willing to wager the Secret Service would like to know the answer to those questions as well.

bramn8r

Explain any weird error getting out of the mint. Anonymous mint workers somehow get the oddball errors to a coin collector that gets the coin graded without any explanation where it came from or how they obtained the coin

OAKSTAR

@cladking said:

@OAKSTAR said:
I'm a simple man. I have a question: I would just like to know EXACTLY who (an engravers name would be nice) modified or altered these die. EXACTLY where these dies were modified. EXACTLY when these dies were modified. And EXACTLY why these dies were modified.

I'm not interested in speculation.

Basically, what's the big secret? Is it a national security risk? A privacy act issue? A threat to national security? Exactly what is the big deal about this? Why is it so difficult to get the facts? There's no documentation, logs or records kept at the mint for something like this?

There are many unanswered question with these types of issues on coins.

2004-D Wisconsin extra leaf.

What was the guy thinking when he first began the process of making these new coins?

Who at the mint and what were they thinking when the 1964 SMS's were put together?

I've long believed that we all are always motivated solely by our beliefs but what is is and then it no longer much matters who believed what. We can make inferences, deductions, and inductions about human causations but we rarely really know for certain.

Numismatics means "[study of] what has been sanctioned by custom or use,". What were the Greeks thinking? Why aren't clad coins "numismatic"?

The world is awash in imponderables.

That's all very interesting and true but it still doesn't answer the question.

cladking

@OAKSTAR said:

That's all very interesting and true but it still doesn't answer the question.

Lol.

Yup, And that's how it works.

privatecoin

Why do so many like and support the government making our money worth less?

OAKSTAR

@air4mdc said:

@OAKSTAR said:
I'm a simple man. I have a question: I would just like to know EXACTLY who (an engravers name would be nice) modified or altered these die. EXACTLY where these dies were modified. EXACTLY when these dies were modified. And EXACTLY why these dies were modified.

I'm willing to wager the Secret Service would like to know the answer to those questions as well.

I'd rather see them protecting the President of the United States, rather them running down BS $20 counterfeit bill and bad checks!

OAKSTAR

@cladking said:

@OAKSTAR said:

That's all very interesting and true but it still doesn't answer the question.

Lol.

Yup, And that's how it works.

Maybe submitting an official FOIA request would work.

cladking

@OAKSTAR said:

That's all very interesting and true but it still doesn't answer the question.

There were probably at least two individuals who knew but might not even be aware of all the reasons they did it and at least one who figured most of it out in an investigation but there's no paper trail. Perhaps one day someone will talk.

It could have begun inadvertently and then been helped. There are a lot of possibilities. It's a shame more details from the investigation weren't released. Odds are good that some "innocent" party was being protected. Several of the things that occurred most likely broke mint rules or policy.

cladking

@OAKSTAR said:

@cladking said:

@OAKSTAR said:

That's all very interesting and true but it still doesn't answer the question.

Lol.

Yup, And that's how it works.

Maybe submitting an official FOIA request would work.

Possibly but I wager they left no paper trail. It seems far more likely they left details off the report than only published part of it.

OAKSTAR

@cladking said:

@OAKSTAR said:

@cladking said:

@OAKSTAR said:

That's all very interesting and true but it still doesn't answer the question.

Lol.

Yup, And that's how it works.

Maybe submitting an official FOIA request would work.

Possibly but I wager they left no paper trail. It seems far more likely they left details off the report than only published part of it.

Are there no gov't policies, directives or regulations to document and account for this stuff? Or maybe they were all just midnight requisitions!

lermish

@OAKSTAR said:

@air4mdc said:

@OAKSTAR said:
I'm a simple man. I have a question: I would just like to know EXACTLY who (an engravers name would be nice) modified or altered these die. EXACTLY where these dies were modified. EXACTLY when these dies were modified. And EXACTLY why these dies were modified.

I'm willing to wager the Secret Service would like to know the answer to those questions as well.

I'd rather see them protecting the President of the United States, rather them running down BS $20 counterfeit bill and bad checks!

They have ~3200 agents and have always been in charge of policing counterfeits. That's why it was created. The vast majority of the Secret Service's work has to do with financial crimes.

CRHer700

@OAKSTAR said:

@cladking said:

@OAKSTAR said:

That's all very interesting and true but it still doesn't answer the question.

Lol.

Yup, And that's how it works.

Maybe submitting an official FOIA request would work.

Here's a question: Why are you not allowed to see the training video for government officials on FOIA.

OAKSTAR

@lermish said:

@OAKSTAR said:

@air4mdc said:

@OAKSTAR said:
I'm a simple man. I have a question: I would just like to know EXACTLY who (an engravers name would be nice) modified or altered these die. EXACTLY where these dies were modified. EXACTLY when these dies were modified. And EXACTLY why these dies were modified.

I'm willing to wager the Secret Service would like to know the answer to those questions as well.

I'd rather see them protecting the President of the United States, rather them running down BS $20 counterfeit bill and bad checks!

They have ~3200 agents and have always been in charge of policing counterfeits. That's why it was created. The vast majority of the Secret Service's work has to do with financial crimes.

You are exactly right. And do you know why the vast majority of SS agents are working financial crimes?... Because they all get cushy security jobs on Wall Street and major financial institutions throughout the country after they retire!... Any questions?

They should be using that vast majority to protect the President!....Any President! Do you know the Secret Service slogan?......Yesterday's Technology Tomorrow!

hummingbird_coins

Why do so many threads go off topic?

SanctionII

What is the dividing line [described objectively so that it can be applied by anyone to any proof coin to come up with the correct designation 100% of the time] between a brilliant proof and a Cameo proof?

lermish

@OAKSTAR said:

@lermish said:

@OAKSTAR said:

@air4mdc said:

@OAKSTAR said:
I'm a simple man. I have a question: I would just like to know EXACTLY who (an engravers name would be nice) modified or altered these die. EXACTLY where these dies were modified. EXACTLY when these dies were modified. And EXACTLY why these dies were modified.

I'm willing to wager the Secret Service would like to know the answer to those questions as well.

I'd rather see them protecting the President of the United States, rather them running down BS $20 counterfeit bill and bad checks!

They have ~3200 agents and have always been in charge of policing counterfeits. That's why it was created. The vast majority of the Secret Service's work has to do with financial crimes.

You are exactly right. And do you know why the vast majority of SS agents are working financial crimes?... Because they all get cushy security jobs on Wall Street and major financial institutions throughout the country after they retire!... Any questions?

They should be using that vast majority to protect the President!....Any President! Do you know the Secret Service slogan?......Yesterday's Technology Tomorrow!

Former regulators (SEC people, Federal Reserve Governors, etc) will often do exactly that. I can't speak definitively but I highly doubt Secret Service agents are getting cushy Wall Street jobs en masse. They're basically mid-level cops. They have essentially zero value to banks or investment firms. No connections and no skills that are valuable enough to warrant anything more than an administrative position.

OAKSTAR

@lermish said:

@OAKSTAR said:

@lermish said:

@OAKSTAR said:

@air4mdc said:

@OAKSTAR said:
I'm a simple man. I have a question: I would just like to know EXACTLY who (an engravers name would be nice) modified or altered these die. EXACTLY where these dies were modified. EXACTLY when these dies were modified. And EXACTLY why these dies were modified.

I'm willing to wager the Secret Service would like to know the answer to those questions as well.

I'd rather see them protecting the President of the United States, rather them running down BS $20 counterfeit bill and bad checks!

They have ~3200 agents and have always been in charge of policing counterfeits. That's why it was created. The vast majority of the Secret Service's work has to do with financial crimes.

You are exactly right. And do you know why the vast majority of SS agents are working financial crimes?... Because they all get cushy security jobs on Wall Street and major financial institutions throughout the country after they retire!... Any questions?

They should be using that vast majority to protect the President!....Any President! Do you know the Secret Service slogan?......Yesterday's Technology Tomorrow!

Former regulators (SEC people, Federal Reserve Governors, etc) will often do exactly that. I can't speak definitively but I highly doubt Secret Service agents are getting cushy Wall Street jobs en masse. They're basically mid-level cops. They have essentially zero value to banks or investment firms. No connections and no skills that are valuable enough to warrant anything more than an administrative position.

Again, you are exactly correct. It's not the line agents GS-12's and 13's. It's the upper management, GS-15's and SES's that are keeping the fraud division open for business and emphasizing that it's mission critical......it's not. Any law enforcement agency could do that function! They are protecting their wallets and after retirement financial interests...you can take that to the bank.