Are prooflike $20 Liberties getting more market acceptance?

oreville

There was a time when only NGC graded $20 Libs as prooflike. Later on PCGS began to grade them as well. Now CAC stickers them along with CACG.

Is CACG considered to be more lax, equal or tougher than PCGS in grading PL $20 Libs?

Crypto

I don’t know if I have seen a consistent standard from anybody. I collected about a half dozen of these around 2006-9 and sold off during a run up in metals to focus on trade dollars. I have seen everything from flashy to DMPL in PL NGC holders and combined with different tolerance for baggy’s impact which is oh so common with these. I doubt there was ever as strict a standard applied like Morgans. PCGS seems much sticker but still various levels of mirror depth in general.

I haven’t seen enough non-Morgan CACG PL coins to form an opinion about consistency. But what I have seen is the premiums shrinking esp for the common dates as availability has increased and metals advance. I would guess it is more an effect of the prices just going so high.

Used to be a member here @BloodMan who had his finger on this market.

jdimmick

One of my customers has recently gotten attached to these. he has me look for them at shows

ProofCollection

In the world of Morgan Dollars, CAC's PL/DMPL standards are the toughest. I have had several DMPL Morgans fail CAC due to quality of mirrors.

oreville

Interesting.

BloodMan

I am not entirely sure about the meaning of "getting more market acceptance", but if this is reflected in the selling price of Liberty double eagles designated as prooflike, then I would say yes that prooflike double eagles continue to gain in popularity.

In my opinion, prooflike Double Eagles with reflective fields and contrasting devices are extremely attractive. These coins often need to be viewed “in-hand” to be fully appreciated as the reflective surfaces tend to exaggerate even minor surface abrasions.

In 2003, NGC started using the PL and DPL designations for all coin series, not just Morgan dollars. PCGS only started with the designation in July of 2019, so the sample size is still relatively small for non-Morgan PL coins. In the 21+ years that NGC has been using the designation, they have awarded the PL (or DPL) designation to 2351 Liberty double eagles, which represents approximately 0.3% of $20 Liberties that NGC has graded. This percentage has been consistent for more than a decade.

The distribution of PL coins varies greatly among dates/mints. For many Type 1 and Type 2 dates, there is not a single PL example. Even among Type 3s (1877-1907), for most dates there are less than 2 dozen PL coins graded. However, for one date, 1904, there are 945 coins with the (D)PL designation, which represents 40% of those graded. This fact is in line with the 1904 $20 being by far the most common date Liberty double eagle available.

While I usually agree with NGC (and PCGS) that coins they have placed in PL holders merit the designation, as @Crypto mentioned, the intensity of the mirrors is inconsistent between coins with the designation. Additionally, the amount of distracting hits and abrasions, even within a grade, can vary dramatically, so finding a PL coin with nice eye appeal can be challenging (with the exception of the 1904). Finally, many PL examples have been dipped (and processed in other ways) in an attempt to increase the reflectivity of the fields, which often diminishes the originality that many discerning collectors desire.

Consistent with these variations in reflectivity, abrasions and overall coin quality, CAC has only approved about 200 $20 Libs as PL or DPL, with 68 of those with a sticker being dated 1904. Looking at the CACG population report, there are 10 coins ($20 Libs) designated PL in CACG holders. The several that I have seen have all been Legacy examples.
Overall, most prooflike $20 Liberties (excluding the 1904, 1898-S and 1904-S, which are the most available dates) have steadily increased in price for many years. However, it is hard to quantity this increase due to the many factors mentioned above, but just to offer a few examples from recent sales...

In the most recent GreatCollections sale, an 1899-S $20 CACG MS63 PL sold for $5225 and an 1894 $20 CACG MS61 PL sold for $3374. Obviously, these prices represent a significant premium compared to non-PL examples of the same date/mint.

The most recent sales at Heritage included a 1904 $20 NGC MS63 PL for $3840 and an 1897-S $20 NGC MS63 DPL for $18000 (the high price realized is partly due to the coin being designated as deep prooflike). Neither of the Heritage coins were CAC approved.

Typekat

https://images.pcgs.com/CoinFacts/39411263_193198918_2200.jpg?_gl=1*5vgayf*_gcl_au*MjEwOTA0OTk1NC4xNzI3OTY5Mzc3*_ga*NTkzMzMxNDc3LjE3Mjc5NjkzNzg.*_ga_J41JKCY50Z*MTcyOTQ1MjQyMS4xNS4xLjE3Mjk0NTI5MTMuNjAuMC4w

I believe this is the only PCGS PL 64+ that’s NOT dated 1904. It’s got a CAC grean bean also.