How do you price CACG coins with + grades

ColoradoCoinGuy

So I have a 1880 GSA Morgan that CACG has given a 64+ (using their new sticker bands). How do you figure out what you might try to sell it for?
Based on Greysheet CAC64 is 1250/990 and 64 is 1150/900. CAC65 is 1900/1525 and 65 is 1600/1260.
Our Host's price guides show 64 - 1050, 64+ - 1100, 65 - 1550.
Do you price is somewhere between CAC64 and CAC65? In the middle or closer to CAC64?

If this has been discussed before (I have missed it) could you provide a link to that discussion.

MFeld

The first thing I do is check auction archives for any sales of MS64+ CAC or CACG examples. I also look to see if there are price guide values for 64+ examples to take into account.

Edited to add: In addition to the above, I look for any auction comps and/or price guide premiums for non-GSA 64+'s.

After doing a little bit of digging, I'm not seeing much of a premium for GSA's over non-GSA's or 64+'s over 64's.
This is the closest comp I could locate on short notice:
https://coins.ha.com/itm/morgan-dollars/1880-cc-1-ms64-ngc-cac-mintage-591-000/a/60397-51056.s

All of the above considered and without any additional information, I'm guessing that I'd price your coin at approximately $1200.

hummingbird_coins

Sight unseen, I would estimate its "market" grade to be the next one up without a plus, as is supposedly in line with CACG's grading standards for "B" and "C" coins. That being said, it seems like CACG isn't assigning plus grades as often as one might think, so its "market" grade could be a plus at the next grade level or maybe even two increments higher.

ColoradoCoinGuy

Thanks @MFeld
I know that there are not yet many CACG coins out there, so finding comps of actual CACG coins will be hard.
I was also trying to get a feel for how CACG+ graded coins are going to be received, hence how to price them.
CACG "Pop Reports and Price Guide" prices a GSA 1880 CC MS64 at 1250 with 85 stickered and 6 graded. Only 2 have been graded 64+ so far. I read that CACG just passed 400,000 coins graded.

Sanddollar

I wait for Cougar's evaluation and then double it.

MFeld

@ColoradoCoinGuy said:
Thanks @MFeld
I know that there are not yet many CACG coins out there, so finding comps of actual CACG coins will be hard.
I was also trying to get a feel for how CACG+ graded coins are going to be received, hence how to price them.
CACG "Pop Reports and Price Guide" prices a GSA 1880 CC MS64 at 1250 with 85 stickered and 6 graded. Only 2 have been graded 64+ so far. I read that CACG just passed 400,000 coins graded.

You’re certainly welcome. Understood about the current low population of CACG coins. However, for what it’s worth, I think they should be more or less on par, value-wise with CAC coins.

ColoradoCoinGuy

So @MFeld in your opinion, is a coin in a PCGS MS64 with a CAC sticker equal in value to the same coin in a PCGS MS64+ with a CAC sticker? I ask this as I understand CAC stickering ignores the + when deciding to sticker or not. Yet the market values a PCGS+ graded coin more valuable than one without the + when there are not stickers on either coin.

Cougar1978

For consistency / I see it somewhere between CDN CAC 64 and CAC 65 - (whether whsl bid or CPG retail. Using those 2 parameters which one is it closer to? Pricing is subjective. The CDN has Bid and CPG (their markup above bid). Are you a wholesaler or retailer? What have auction results been if any. Then what do you have in it enters in when in sell negotiation. Something that nice be the only one in the room (very much in sellers favor). How do you plan respond to a counter offer. The determining factor is eye appeal and demand, especially at that price level.

For sure sounds like a nice keeper coin. Somebody may refer to auc look at what that went for / how compare to your material. I use the CDN bid and CPG retail numbers as base Whsl /Retail. But esoteric factors enter in / luster, strike, eye appeal, where ABC, what competitor. You may want refer to the relative TPG numbers. As far as a CAC this being another TPG that is an opinion of any number of individuals or someone possibly some talk you down. Of course items may be discounted to move them (seller choice).

It is for you the seller to sort it all, analyze the big picture and make the play call. Yes their can be comps but are those pieces nicer than or inferior to your coin?

IkesT

@Cougar1978 said:
For consistency / I see it somewhere between CDN CAC 64 and CAC 65 - (whether whsl bid or CPG retail. Using those 2 parameters which one is it closer to? Pricing is subjective. The CDN has Bid and CPG (their markup above bid). Are you a wholesaler or retailer? What have auction results been if any. Then what do you have in it enters in when in sell negotiation. Something that nice be the only one in the room (very much in sellers favor). How do you plan respond to a counter offer. The determining factor is eye appeal and demand, especially at that price level.

For sure sounds like a nice keeper coin. Somebody may refer to auc look at what that went for / how compare to your material. I use the CDN bid and CPG retail numbers as base Whsl /Retail. But esoteric factors enter in / luster, strike, eye appeal, where ABC, what competitor. You may want refer to the relative TPG numbers. As far as a CAC this being another TPG that is an opinion of any number of individuals or someone possibly some talk you down. Of course items may be discounted to move them (seller choice).

It is for you the seller to sort it all and make the play call,

What's a "play call"?

lermish

@IkesT said:

@Cougar1978 said:
For consistency / I see it somewhere between CDN CAC 64 and CAC 65 - (whether whsl bid or CPG retail. Using those 2 parameters which one is it closer to? Pricing is subjective. The CDN has Bid and CPG (their markup above bid). Are you a wholesaler or retailer? What have auction results been if any. Then what do you have in it enters in when in sell negotiation. Something that nice be the only one in the room (very much in sellers favor). How do you plan respond to a counter offer. The determining factor is eye appeal and demand, especially at that price level.

For sure sounds like a nice keeper coin. Somebody may refer to auc look at what that went for / how compare to your material. I use the CDN bid and CPG retail numbers as base Whsl /Retail. But esoteric factors enter in / luster, strike, eye appeal, where ABC, what competitor. You may want refer to the relative TPG numbers. As far as a CAC this being another TPG that is an opinion of any number of individuals or someone possibly some talk you down. Of course items may be discounted to move them (seller choice).

It is for you the seller to sort it all and make the play call,

What's a "play call"?

Baby steps. That was a nice and relevant post. Got a little cougarism at the end but overall, pretty good!

Cougar1978

Are you like a ref here? Well if you didn’t throw a flag on that ok. How have you done in making sales gross margin at shows vs show expenses? Do you setup?

lermish

@Cougar1978 said:
Are you like a ref here? Well if you didn’t throw a flag on that ok. How have you done in making sales gross margin at shows vs show expenses? Do you setup?

Are you talking to me? If so, I'm not a ref and not a dealer. I was complimenting you on a nice post. If you don't want to accept my compliment, that's your prerogative.

Cougar1978

I liked parts of your compliment but I am a curious person. Are you site supported (the mods) in judging other people here? Maybe I should ask them. What is your bourse room experience / professional background? Ok I see your not a dealer - thanks question answered. I was a collector / investor for a long time b4 setting up. A friend from my coin club who owned a real estate investment company shared a table with me at my first show and we would share some at subsequent shows to cut expenses. He specialized in Peace Dollars. Learned about them even had quite a few at one time. This one hateful dealer would come around to talk us down. A dealer who would setup by or near me specialized in world gold (had good prices) and and I bought a few from him plus learning that part of the business.

DisneyFan

Interesting!
Greysheet CAC64 is 1250/990 and CAC65 is 1900/1525 - difference between 64 & 65 is 650/535
Greysheet 64 is 1150/900. 65 is 1600/1260. - difference between 64 & 65 is 450/360
PCGS price guide shows 64 - 1050, 64+ - 1100, 65 - 1550 - difference is between 64 & 64+ is 50 - difference is between 64+ & 65 is 450

There doesn't appear to be much of a premium for this 64+ at PCGS. My estimate for a CAC64+ is 1300/1040 AND THAT'S JUST A PRICE GUIDE NUMBER.

lermish

@Cougar1978 said:
I liked parts of your compliment but I am a curious person. Are you site supported (the mods) in judging other people here? Maybe I should ask them. What is your bourse room experience / professional background? Ok I see your not a dealer - thanks question answered. I was a collector / investor for a long time b4 setting up. A friend from my coin club who owned a real estate investment company shared a table with me at my first show and we would share some at subsequent shows to cut expenses. He specialized in Peace Dollars. Learned about them even had quite a few at one time. This one hateful dealer would come around to talk us down. A dealer who would setup by or near me specialized in world gold (had good prices) and and I bought a few from him plus learning that part of the business.

I am completely unaffiliated with PCGS and am not a mod in any sense of the word.

When it comes to judging people, I share my opinion when and how I like..it's a message board, that's what it's here for.

As for the bourse, I will sometimes help friends at their tables but I am 100% a collector. I've never dealt at a show for myself and never intend to. I buy and collect coins valued up to the low-mid 5 figures. Coins are a hobby to me, not an investment.

ColoradoCoinGuy

@Cougar1978 thanks for your thoughts. I have been a collector since the 60s but in the last year or two have started to set up at smaller local shows as a dealer and am now getting to be known as a dealer when it comes to buying. The coin in question will likely stay in my collection for now. I have been trying to understand all the different pricing methods other dealers use to price their coins. With CACG now using +grades, and no price guides indicating what + coins are worth, except for our host having pricing for + grades for their coins in their price guide, I have been trying to figure out how to deal with PCGS, NGC, and CACG values when they have a +.

BigAl

@ColoradoCoinGuy said:
So @MFeld in your opinion, is a coin in a PCGS MS64 with a CAC sticker equal in value to the same coin in a PCGS MS64+ with a CAC sticker? I ask this as I understand CAC stickering ignores the + when deciding to sticker or not. Yet the market values a PCGS+ graded coin more valuable than one without the + when there are not stickers on either coin.

Sight unseen, I would assume the + graded coin would sell at a premium. How much of a premium depends on various factors including the spread between b/t 64 and 65, pops, and whether the non-plus coin was graded during a time when + grades were awarded.

leothelyon

Wasn't there discussions when CACG was cross grading other cgc's plus graded coins that they didn't take into consideration the plusses on those grades doing so but yet they're plus grading the coins they're grading? It's like some kind of bias going on. A plus is like a .5 added to the grade....why not treat it as such? Will the coin cross at MS64+ or MS65+.....don't ignore it and not give it any meaning. Their stance must be if we ignore other cgc's pluses we can get more submissions.

Leo

jmlanzaf

@leothelyon said:
Wasn't there discussions when CACG was cross grading other cgc's plus graded coins that they didn't take into consideration the plusses on those grades doing so but yet they're plus grading the coins they're grading? It's like some kind of bias going on. A plus is like a .5 added to the grade....why not treat it as such? Will the coin cross at MS64+ or MS65+.....don't ignore it and not give it any meaning. Their stance must be if we ignore other cgc's pluses we can get more submissions.

Leo

The sticker operation ignored the plus. CACG has always used +.

jmlanzaf

@IkesT said:

@Cougar1978 said:
For consistency / I see it somewhere between CDN CAC 64 and CAC 65 - (whether whsl bid or CPG retail. Using those 2 parameters which one is it closer to? Pricing is subjective. The CDN has Bid and CPG (their markup above bid). Are you a wholesaler or retailer? What have auction results been if any. Then what do you have in it enters in when in sell negotiation. Something that nice be the only one in the room (very much in sellers favor). How do you plan respond to a counter offer. The determining factor is eye appeal and demand, especially at that price level.

For sure sounds like a nice keeper coin. Somebody may refer to auc look at what that went for / how compare to your material. I use the CDN bid and CPG retail numbers as base Whsl /Retail. But esoteric factors enter in / luster, strike, eye appeal, where ABC, what competitor. You may want refer to the relative TPG numbers. As far as a CAC this being another TPG that is an opinion of any number of individuals or someone possibly some talk you down. Of course items may be discounted to move them (seller choice).

It is for you the seller to sort it all and make the play call,

What's a "play call"?

He often uses the football metaphor for selling strategies

leothelyon

@jmlanzaf said:

@leothelyon said:
Wasn't there discussions when CACG was cross grading other cgc's plus graded coins that they didn't take into consideration the plusses on those grades doing so but yet they're plus grading the coins they're grading? It's like some kind of bias going on. A plus is like a .5 added to the grade....why not treat it as such? Will the coin cross at MS64+ or MS65+.....don't ignore it and not give it any meaning. Their stance must be if we ignore other cgc's pluses we can get more submissions.

Leo

The sticker operation ignored the plus. CACG has always used +.

That's right! It was CAC and not CACG.

Leo

MFeld

@ColoradoCoinGuy said:
So @MFeld in your opinion, is a coin in a PCGS MS64 with a CAC sticker equal in value to the same coin in a PCGS MS64+ with a CAC sticker? I ask this as I understand CAC stickering ignores the + when deciding to sticker or not. Yet the market values a PCGS+ graded coin more valuable than one without the + when there are not stickers on either coin.

No, a PCGS64+ with a sticker should be worth more than a PCGS64 with a sticker. Although CAC ignores the plus, the opinion of PCGS is significant, so with or without a sticker, a PCGS plus will almost always sell for more than a non-plus example.

291fifth

What the market will bear.

I have to wonder how many collectors are being turned off by the current emphasis on plastic, +s, *s, and stickers. The hobby has increasingly become just about how to milk every last dime out of a given coin.

jmlanzaf

@291fifth said:
What the market will bear.

I have to wonder how many collectors are being turned off by the current emphasis on plastic, +s, *s, ans stickers. The hobby has increasingly become just about how to milk every last dime out of a given coin.

Most collectors don't buy slabs at all

gtstang

It really depends on the aesthetics of the coin itself. It could be a technical 65 but received a 64+ because it is spotty and unattractive and would deem no premium in my opinion.
If it got the plus because it is nicely toned and very attractive, then it could likely sell for a higher premium than a technical 65.

291fifth

@jmlanzaf said:

@291fifth said:
What the market will bear.

I have to wonder how many collectors are being turned off by the current emphasis on plastic, +s, *s, ans stickers. The hobby has increasingly become just about how to milk every last dime out of a given coin.

Most collectors don't buy slabs at all

But many buy nothing but slabs.

johnny010

+plus seems to be most relevant for registry sets. CACG not there yet.

ColoradoCoinGuy

@jmlanzaf said "Most collectors don't buy slabs at all"

Although outside the scope of my original post, I will say that most true collectors, with some halfway decent grading skills, will be buying the coin, whether raw or in a slab. It is getting harder and harder to find "nice" coins raw, although they are still out there, and as many on this forum will say "why is that "nice" coin still raw? There must be some issue with it." Sometimes the coin you are looking for to add to your collection is more easily found in a slab, so that is what you buy unless you want to spend years looking for the same coin raw.

ProofCollection

As I see CACG coins seem to be more difficult to sell and bring lower prices than PCGS and NGC CAC stickered coins, I would just ballpark it by adding a small premium onto the non-plus CAC CPG pricing, maybe 25-40% of the way to the next higher grade in the price guide. It seems that the real value of the CAC sticker is in having two grading opinions rather than one, and with a CACG + you just have one grade opinion.

jmlanzaf

@291fifth said:

@jmlanzaf said:

@291fifth said:
What the market will bear.

I have to wonder how many collectors are being turned off by the current emphasis on plastic, +s, *s, ans stickers. The hobby has increasingly become just about how to milk every last dime out of a given coin.

Most collectors don't buy slabs at all

But many buy nothing but slabs.

And those people aren't turned off by plastic. They love the plastic