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Incredible proof half cent

CoinobsessedCoinobsessed Posts: 52 ✭✭✭
edited October 12, 2024 8:39AM in U.S. Coin Forum


I am one of the first collectors of cameo proof coins. I have been looking for decades for a coin like this. This is an amazing cameo. There are five half cents graded at PCGS in cameo. Three for 1843. The other coins have some cameo on the obverse and light reverses. I believe this deserves a deep cameo. It has an interesting story. It was owned by a copper collector, who died in the 1920s. The coin was just removed from the wax paper it had been stored in for over 90 years.
Auction description added.

Comments

  • MFeldMFeld Posts: 13,485 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Here’s a link to the testing forum: https://forums.collectors.com/categories/testing-forum

    Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.

  • PerryHallPerryHall Posts: 46,132 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Just edit your thread title to "Really cool proof half cent." ;)

    Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
    "Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
    "Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire

  • MFeldMFeld Posts: 13,485 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Coinobsessed said:

    I am one of the first collectors of cameo proof coins. I have been looking for decades for a coin like this. This is an amazing cameo. There are four graded at PCGS in cameo. Two for 1843. The other coins have some cameo on the obverse and light reverses. I believe this deserves a deep cameo. It has an interesting story. It was owned by a copper collector, who died in the 1920s. The coin was just removed from the wax paper it had been stored in for over 90 years.

    I’d welcome additional details about the coin’s history if you care to share them.
    Based on the images, it sure looks like a deep cameo.

    Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.

  • goldengolden Posts: 9,598 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Super coin!

  • johnny9434johnny9434 Posts: 28,328 ✭✭✭✭✭

    😎

  • tcollectstcollects Posts: 1,055 ✭✭✭✭✭

    awesome coin, was it made in 1843 or restruck later? I wonder if the wax paper was from the mint?

  • It’s considered an original. No one I talked to has thought about storing in wax paper.

  • Old_CollectorOld_Collector Posts: 136 ✭✭✭

    @tcollects said:
    awesome coin, was it made in 1843 or restruck later? I wonder if the wax paper was from the mint?

    Seems unlikely that the wax paper was from the mint since 1843 predates what we call wax paper, it seems at that time that oiled parchment was about as close as one could get. Modern wax paper came around 1872 with Edison credited for the invention. In any case quite a coin.

  • GoldbullyGoldbully Posts: 17,342 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Highest resolution......see link below.

    I wonder, did Phil take the images on this coin?



    TrueView Link

  • CryptoCrypto Posts: 3,683 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I’m not sure wax would leave it looking like that. One must at least consider that it is processed and paying a huge premium for a non stable attribute is a risk to say the least.

  • John Dannreuther says it is 100% original. Please describe what you mean by processed, and how that would be done.

  • 291fifth291fifth Posts: 24,344 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Old_Collector said:

    @tcollects said:
    awesome coin, was it made in 1843 or restruck later? I wonder if the wax paper was from the mint?

    Seems unlikely that the wax paper was from the mint since 1843 predates what we call wax paper, it seems at that time that oiled parchment was about as close as one could get. Modern wax paper came around 1872 with Edison credited for the invention. In any case quite a coin.

    A type of wax paper was in use at the time the coin was struck. It was used to make photographic negatives in an early photo process that was developed in England. I believe they were called calotype negatives. The process was probably known in the US as well. I have seen an actual negative produced from this type of wax paper at the Detroit Institute of Arts.

    All glory is fleeting.
  • CryptoCrypto Posts: 3,683 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Coinobsessed said:
    John Dannreuther says it is 100% original. Please describe what you mean by processed, and how that would be done.

    Considering how reactive copper is, you tell me how it isn’t. Optimist versus pessimist. Maybe 1 in a billion still happens but I don’t buy the wax paper story, anytime I hear a perfect storm, hard to believe story I tend to think well managed promotion targeted towards the true believers. Let’s see what it looks like a few years

  • Old_CollectorOld_Collector Posts: 136 ✭✭✭

    @291fifth said:

    @Old_Collector said:

    @tcollects said:
    awesome coin, was it made in 1843 or restruck later? I wonder if the wax paper was from the mint?

    Seems unlikely that the wax paper was from the mint since 1843 predates what we call wax paper, it seems at that time that oiled parchment was about as close as one could get. Modern wax paper came around 1872 with Edison credited for the invention. In any case quite a coin.

    A type of wax paper was in use at the time the coin was struck. It was used to make photographic negatives in an early photo process that was developed in England. I believe they were called calotype negatives. The process was probably known in the US as well. I have seen an actual negative produced from this type of wax paper at the Detroit Institute of Arts.

    I read about the wax paper used in photography, but that was attributed to a fellow named LeGray in 1851, still after the date of the minting. I assume that it was actually placed in wax paper at some later time unless they did use oiled parchment.

  • My new favorite coin.

  • CryptoCrypto Posts: 3,683 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Old_Collector said:

    @291fifth said:

    @Old_Collector said:

    @tcollects said:
    awesome coin, was it made in 1843 or restruck later? I wonder if the wax paper was from the mint?

    Seems unlikely that the wax paper was from the mint since 1843 predates what we call wax paper, it seems at that time that oiled parchment was about as close as one could get. Modern wax paper came around 1872 with Edison credited for the invention. In any case quite a coin.

    A type of wax paper was in use at the time the coin was struck. It was used to make photographic negatives in an early photo process that was developed in England. I believe they were called calotype negatives. The process was probably known in the US as well. I have seen an actual negative produced from this type of wax paper at the Detroit Institute of Arts.

    I read about the wax paper used in photography, but that was attributed to a fellow named LeGray in 1851, still after the date of the minting. I assume that it was actually placed in wax paper at some later time unless they did use oiled parchment.

    Even wax paper can tone copper esp if it traps anything in there even assuming that some 100 year old medium that held the wax didn’t have impurities that leached like paper or petroleum products do. The copper would have different colored rims or what ever was simply exposed to not wax. It’s too consistent to have touched anything.

    If I had to guess it was lacquered and the acid to remove it left it perfect by chance. I can absolutely be wrong but something along those line is wayyyyyyyy more probable than some early collector having 100 year foresight and perfect technique to keep it red. But just that one

  • Crypto, I have no idea who you are. Maybe you can tell me your qualifications when it comes to copper. Do you like to come on and criticize other people’s coins? Have you ever seen a gem cameo proof indian cent? I will take JD’s and other experts opinions over yours. Posts like yours are why lots of dealers and advanced collectors tell people to stay off of here.

  • YouYou Posts: 207 ✭✭✭

    I think a slightly better job could have been done about conserving this coin. It's a fantastic piece, but the haze carelessly left around the devices irks me. If I owned it I would probably finish the job.

  • lermishlermish Posts: 2,904 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Coinobsessed said:
    Crypto, I have no idea who you are. Maybe you can tell me your qualifications when it comes to copper. Do you like to come on and criticize other people’s coins? Have you ever seen a gem cameo proof indian cent? I will take JD’s and other experts opinions over yours. Posts like yours are why lots of dealers and advanced collectors tell people to stay off of here.

    That post is educated, well thought out, and respectful. I think it's a great instructional post for people who may not know much about copper and how different environments can affect the color.

    And btw, if he is correct about lacquer on the coin and then acetone off, most would consider that coin original. The surfaces would be unmolested and original, just protected by lacquer for a century.

    I think your response is coming from left field and is totally unwarranted.

  • tcollectstcollects Posts: 1,055 ✭✭✭✭✭

    maybe the wax paper is a hint it was made later?

  • ashelandasheland Posts: 23,189 ✭✭✭✭✭

    What a beauty! 🥰

  • lordmarcovanlordmarcovan Posts: 43,530 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited October 12, 2024 7:22PM

    That’s utterly amazing. If that’s a CAM, are there any designated DCAM? This one sure looks close.


    Explore collections of lordmarcovan on CollecOnline, management, safe-keeping, sharing and valuation solution for art piece and collectibles.
  • CoinobsessedCoinobsessed Posts: 52 ✭✭✭
    edited October 12, 2024 7:37PM

    My response was to his comment that the coin was processed and that it would turn in a couple years. This was before his second guess about what happened.

  • CopperindianCopperindian Posts: 1,449 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Awesome looking coin - looks very special from here!

    “The thrill of the hunt never gets old”

    PCGS Registry: Screaming Eagles
    Copperindian

    Retired sets: Soaring Eagles
    Copperindian

  • FlyingAlFlyingAl Posts: 3,218 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Coinobsessed said:
    John Dannreuther says it is 100% original. Please describe what you mean by processed, and how that would be done.

    Let's turn this same question around. Can you explain how one identifies an original Proof RD half cent? To me, copper of that date that is original would almost certainly be brown, with a few RB exceptions.

    Coin Photographer.

  • alaura22alaura22 Posts: 3,182 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited October 12, 2024 8:21PM

    And yet there are 390 half cents in RED..................from 1849 to 1857, SOOOO, how did that happen
    Edited to add:
    And 91 from 1809 to 1835................soooo many reds.........

  • YouYou Posts: 207 ✭✭✭

    @FlyingAl said:

    @Coinobsessed said:
    John Dannreuther says it is 100% original. Please describe what you mean by processed, and how that would be done.

    Let's turn this same question around. Can you explain how one identifies an original Proof RD half cent? To me, copper of that date that is original would almost certainly be brown, with a few RB exceptions.

    I would assume that by “original” he meant that the color is natural to the coin. Original red color cannot be restored once lost, and it’s generally fairly obvious when it has been artificially induced. There are red copper coins that are older than this piece. For example: https://www.pcgs.com/valueview/george-iii-1770-1807/1799-1-2d-s-3778-rd/4103?sn=201210&g=66&h=

  • YouYou Posts: 207 ✭✭✭

    That being said, the coin certainly appears to have been processed to some degree in an attempt to remove the haze / wax / surface gunk. I imagine PCGS performed that conservation.

  • CryptoCrypto Posts: 3,683 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited October 13, 2024 8:27AM

    @You said:
    That being said, the coin certainly appears to have been processed to some degree in an attempt to remove the haze / wax / surface gunk. I imagine PCGS performed that conservation.

    Clearly. And with any treated coin, future stability is unknown and often more reactive. red can be enhanced with various concentrations of acids.

  • I saw this coin in hand and without a doubt it is 100% original. I also do not believe anything was removed from the coin such as lacquer. I also spoke with the individual at the auction house who gave the backstory on the collection. I can confirm the wax paper story but if wax paper was not invented until 1872 it could have been some other type of paper that having aged over time may appear to be a wax paper. Also, the coin has very few extremely minor spots that look, no to be gross but spit droplets that may have happened when someone spoke over the coin. BTW the coin brought $110,000.

  • jesbrokenjesbroken Posts: 9,998 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Most beautiful half cent photo I have ever seen. Would love to have seen the coin inhand. Congrats to new owner.
    Jim


    When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln

    Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
  • Married2CoinsMarried2Coins Posts: 549 ✭✭✭

    @Coinobsessed said:
    Crypto, I have no idea who you are. Maybe you can tell me your qualifications when it comes to copper. Do you like to come on and criticize other people’s coins? Have you ever seen a gem cameo proof indian cent? I will take JD’s and other experts opinions over yours. Posts like yours are why lots of dealers and advanced collectors tell people to stay off of here.

    I have read Crypto's posts before. I have no idea who he is either. I also know who JD is. I am a simple man far below anyone here but I am not a dummy and do not have the means to ever own such a coin. However, I can write these things with 100% certainty:

    1. The coin is graded by PCGS. If there were lacquer on the coin, they would say so.
    2. We must assume the coin was sold by a major auction house. If it was "worked" in any way they or the bidders would notice it.
    3. JD said it was original. It sure looks 100% original red to my eyes.
    4. The chance that this coin was not lacquered at some time as that was the custom is almost ZERO!
    5. The coin displays a discolored residue of some kind around its relied. That is a 100% visible FACT!

    When I first saw the image, my reaction was: "Why wasn't this coin professionally conserved!" My second reaction was if you cannot say something nice shut up. I agree with all the other posters. You own a truly wonder coin.

    I'm posting here now because I took offense at your comment to Crypto. That's because some of the most knowledgeable numismatists in this country fly under the radar and they know much more than the auction lot writers and the deep pocket collectors who buy the coins they write about.

    Right or wrong, I thank Crypto for his comments and thank you for giving him a coin to comment on.

  • Married2CoinsMarried2Coins Posts: 549 ✭✭✭

    @FlyingAl said:

    @Coinobsessed said:
    John Dannreuther says it is 100% original. Please describe what you mean by processed, and how that would be done.

    Let's turn this same question around. Can you explain how one identifies an original Proof RD half cent? To me, copper of that date that is original would almost certainly be brown, with a few RB exceptions.

    Let's turn this around on you AL. There are plenty of full red 19th Century copper coins around from lots of countries. And, I'd bet my entire coin collection that you could spot one of the from a foot away! ;)

  • Married2CoinsMarried2Coins Posts: 549 ✭✭✭

    @joep said:
    I saw this coin in hand and without a doubt it is 100% original. I also do not believe anything was removed from the coin such as lacquer. I also spoke with the individual at the auction house who gave the backstory on the collection. I can confirm the wax paper story but if wax paper was not invented until 1872 it could have been some other type of paper that having aged over time may appear to be a wax paper. Also, the coin has very few extremely minor spots that look, no to be gross but spit droplets that may have happened when someone spoke over the coin. BTW the coin brought $110,000.

    Thanks for posting its cost; however, what the coin brought has nothing to do with some of the comments.

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