1855 $1 Gold... found in junk coin box
YQQ
Posts: 3,312 ✭✭✭✭✭
I found this interesting coin in a dealer's rather large freshly filled $2 Junk box.
I picked out ten world coins, the smallest I could find just for fun. total cost including taxes CAN $ 22.40 (about $17 US)
I did recognize (in the box) that this was an 1855 US coin. (but I did not even think about gold)
the coin was covered with a dark dirty "old" yucky, smeary substance and did not look interesting at all. Acetone and hot soapy water did a good job.
questions:
1 would you have told the dealer?
2 would you have just paid your bill and smiled?
3 what grade would you give the coin?
4 What is it worth?
5 Since I do not collect US coins (Canada only) I am going to sell it, Is the BST here a good venue to sell it OR Feebay?
below is the end result, what it looks like now.
thank you all for your input
H
Comments
It would make a distinctive ring.
Tell the dealer. Sleep well that night.
Whit
1 would you have told the dealer?
2 would you have just paid your bill and smiled?
3 what grade would you give the coin?
4 What is it worth?
5 Since I do not collect US coins (Canada only) I am going to sell it, Is the BST here a good venue to sell it OR Feebay?
1) That would probably depend upon the nature of my relationship with him.
2) Same as above.
3) The coin looks XF to me.
4) If there aren’t any hidden problems, it should be worth $300 plus.
5) I’m sure a lot of forum members would prefer that it be listed on the BST but I think eBay would be a better option for you.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I would have told the dealer so he could go back to the person that he bought if from and pay them more money for his coin.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Perryhall
You owe me cleaning expences, after reading your reply I spit up my coffee all over.............
Mike
My Indians
Danco Set
If,and it is a big if,coin was returned to dealer with the gesture it could result in a lifetime solid relationship with the dealer. Sure, short term you are giving up that profit, but may get a lifetime of discounts that far outweigh the short term loss. All depends on your viewpoint taking the chance.
Hopefully it was obvious to everyone that I was being facetious.
Remember that no matter how underpriced a dealer's ask price for a coin may be, he paid less than that when he bought it.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
I think since it was in the junk box, it was junk until it wasn't. Good fortune to a lcs customer, who made the effort to patronize the business.
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Keep the coin. It was a legitimate arms length transaction with a sophisticated seller. You were not asked to value the coin before you purchased it. Be generous in your future purchases with this dealer..
Sometimes, the little guy wins, and that's okay.
"Bongo hurtles along the rain soaked highway of life on underinflated bald retread tires."
~Wayne
Sounds like a nice win and no one was taken advantage of. Whoever he bought it from thought it was junk, he thought it was junk, everyone paid and received asking price, and you figured out it’s not junk. Had you turned around and sold it as junk without knowing, you’d have still been happy, just like the first two guys.
I doubt that but then again someone might just do that 🙂
I wouldn't tell the dealer.
It's not my obligation to return ever winfall I ever come across.
The substantial truth doctrine is an important defense in defamation law that allows individuals to avoid liability if the gist of their statement was true.
Having been on both sides of the counter (and the junk box), I say that the lucky person is under no obligation to return the coin.
I have found good items in the junk box. Keep looking.
*
Hmmm. What to do.....
Option 1
Buy the dealer's junk coin for two dollars. You'll both walk away from the transaction thinking you did really well.
Option 2
Tell the dealer he's too stupid to know gold when he sees it and you don't know how he manages to stay in business. You'll leave him with hurt feelings and be banned from his store.
I'd go with option 1.
“Tell the dealer” ?!*
No way!
It was bought it for poundage & sold as poundage, - don’t embarrass the poor dealer.
30+ years coin shop experience (ret.) Coins, bullion, currency, scrap & interesting folks. Loved every minute!
I thought, “Easy, junk buy—no obligation.“ Then I thought, “What if he saw action in Iraq?” Or “What if…?”
I would own the guilt, the coin, and go back to make sure that I did not miss anything.
It's a cherry pick. Say nothing, ever, to any dealer about the terrific cherry picks you have made off them. Dealers should know what they are selling. If they don't, it's not up to you to school them. I recently bought a wheat penny out of a dealer's junk box for $0.50. The Red Book price for that junk box penny is $50 in the grade I found it in. I looked at a lot of coins and spent a lot of time in that junk box to find that piece along with a few other great values. I have never been motivated to brag about or inform about my cherry picks with the cherry pickee dealer. Keeping my mouth shut about my finds is how I secure my cherry picking future.
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
Junk boxes bring customers to the table or into the shop that might also buy other items. Dealers get rid of material that is not worth the time or space. Feels like a win-win to me.
If you want to repay the dealer, be a repeat customer, buy some higher-end material when you are able and tell your coin friends how great the dealer is.
Since you are going to resell the coin, you could also sell it back to the dealer and allow him to make the retail margin on it instead of allowing eBay to collect the margin/fees.
Junk to one. Jewel to another. Lather, rinse, repeat. Back to the junk box. That’s fun.
Seems to me that everyone is choosing to ignore the possibility that the coin was bought for real money and found its way in there, by mistake. I've done that before... not with gold, but once with a CC Morgan that accidentally was mixed in the average circ dollar pile. Someone found it and asked me "are you sure you meant to put this one in there?". I thanked him and rewarded his honesty by cutting him a heck of a good price break on a Seated piece he needed for a type set.
RIP Mom- 1932-2012
I've done it. In fact, I'll tell you a true story.
I did a purchase offer for a LCS. There was supposed to be a 55 DDO in there but I couldn't find it. The dealer I was working for couldn't find it. And when she asked the estate, they thought it might have been stored somewhere else instead.
The dealer bought it 10% back of my offer and flipped it to me. That was our arrangement. And then I flipped it to another dealer for a reasonable profit, 10 or 15%, I forget the exact number.
The night I sold it, the guy I sold out to called and asked if there was a 55 DDO in that deal that I had forgotten about. Turns out the collector had put it in a GSA box and it had slipped into a seam in the cardboard.
I told him the story. He returned it to me. I returned it to the other dealer. She called the estate who decided to keep the coin.
So, despite all you cynics, there were THREE dealers who each could have had a free XF 55 DDO. ALL THREE did the right thing.
I think people are going off on tangents here.
If a dealer accidentally gave me a more valuable coin, or an extra coin, etc., I'd return it.
But a grungy, clearly unidentified junk coin is another matter. That coin did not fall out of a slab or even a flip and land in the junk box. It likely traveled a long journey as junk to get there.
Sure, somebody messed up, but it was likely a long, long time ago and the trail to make it right is long gone. Someone is going to enjoy a windfall. Why shouldn't it be the person who discovered it?
The key to the story is:
There was supposed to be a 55 DDO in there but I couldn't find it.
Everybody did the right thing
Dealers, sure, but, this thread is about customer behavior and an orphaned coin. You knew that something had disappeared.
I think you miss the point of the story. Nobody knew the coin was in there. The family knew he had owned one but they didn't know for sure that it was in there. The dealer I sold it to could have kept it and not mentioned it. He didn't. I could have kept it when he returned it, but didn't. And the first dealer didn't have to call the family. But all 3 DEALERS (despite what people think of us) chose to pass up the windfall.
And I'm not sure dealer or customer should matter here.
I didn't tell the story to equate the situation, however. Some posters, however, seemed to be making assumptions about the dealer, implying that no dealer would give money back if they discovered a mistake later. That is simply not true.
That doesn't mean the OP is under any obligation to do so. But as @MFeld said, it is related to the relationship you have with the dealer. I would extend that to the type of relationship you want to have with the dealer.
Any dealer could take advantage of the ignorance of people who come into their store as either sellers or buyers. But there are MANY dealers who make a fair profit and do not take advantage of either buyers or sellers.
I get it. I have not dealt with an unscrupulous coin dealer. I do know pawn and antique shop owners, that sell coins, who do not care that anyone, except a sucker, return to his store.
Edit: I define a dealer (here) as one who houses, feeds, educates, heals someone with profits from coin sales.
Thank you all for your comments and interesting input.
The shop I got this is in a Canadian City I visit maybe 2x a year.
So there is no serious dealer-client relationship. The owner there is not known as being "generous".
I have decided to sell the coin as it does not fit my collection interests.
will most likely put it up for sale or trade here on BST next week.
Or, if someone is interested, send PM.
I would absolutely tell the dealer. Right after giving him my bank account & SS #.
Waste of my time thread, everybody has an opinion and rightly so. There is no wrong answer here as far as I could tell. It appears the common thoughts among dealers is, cherry picking should be outlawed when they are on the wrong side.
thank you
What in this thread led you to the conclusion that the common thoughts among dealers is, cherry picking should be outlawed when they are on the wrong side? That hasn’t been my experience or perception.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I was looking thru some Morgans back when they were going for $15 apiece. Anywho, I found an 1882 o/s eds Morgan & told the dealer. Nothing wrong done and I felt good 👍
There are plenty of non-dealers who think that if someone else makes a score, they're ripping someone off but when they do so, it's simply employing their superior knowledge to their benefit.
RIP Mom- 1932-2012
If I ever open a coin shop, I think I will “seed” my junk box with a few valuable coins, just to get publicity, repeat business and to draw more people into the store 🧐. 😉
Mr_Spud
Years ago, I purchased 24 Sterling silver goblets for $35 at an estate sale. I wasn't positive that they were genuine, but took the chance. They are presently worth over $5k. Should I have returned them?
If they were in fact "Stirling" then I'm not sure how well you did.
If they were "Sterling" then you did great.
Estate sale + Uncertainty = congratulations on your purchase.
Edited. Thx!
Dealers frequently rip people that come into them. If they do not perform due diligence IN THEIR HOUSE/SHOP, that is their problem. It is up to the buyer if they want to share in the largesse. I won't name names but some very prominent dealers have done what was just stated and then been "absolved" of their sins, some after a light tap on the hand after being caught.
Well, just Love coins, period.
I often learn and may modify my opinions when I read and consider how others approach a situation. Now, I will admit that one reply in this thread was a waste of time to read, but I'm not going to say which one.
Context matters - part of the idea of a junk box is that there might be something rare, valuble or overlooked. In exchange, dealers get rid of junk, earn some goodwill with customers and get some foot traffic. If you have to give anything rare, valuable or overlooked back, why bother looking?
How about the most famous of junk box finds - the half disme that was eventually slabbed by our host and sold:
https://www.coinworld.com/news/us-coins/collector-finds-rare-1792-half-disme-in-junk-box
Related question - If I find a silver half dollar in a coin roll from the bank, should I give it back to the bank? How about if I find a 1955 DD in a roll from the bank?
I think you need to read my other post for proper context. My comment has virtually nothing to do with the junk box.
So you posted a story that has no relevance to the OP’s situation. Got it.
No, you don’t “got it”. His example needn’t have been about a junk box for its point to be relevant. And relevant, it was, with respect to three different people passing up a windfall when they could have had one.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
This.
My post was in response to the people who were saying negative things about dealers. The fact is that many (most?) dealers behave ethically whether it's a junk box or not.
I also, if you read my other post, indicated that I was not suggesting that the OP was doing anything unethical by keeping it. But that you do get to choose what kind of relationships you build in the hobby.
I'll tell you another OT true story. When I first got back into the hobby as an adult in the mid 1990s, I started frequenting all the local shops. I didn't know any of them as the one I went to as a kid was gone. There were 3 main ones and I visited each of them once or twice per week.
At the time, I was still hole filling and the one store had a nice selection of album material and I would pick up $40 or $50 worth every week, including about a week before Christmas when he added it up and gave me a round number price.
Right after Christmas, I returned. When I walked in, he said "I added them up wrong last time you were here. You owe me $3,25."
I was stunned for a number of reasons. How could he have readded them as he hasn't made an itemized list? And it was such a small, petty amount that, especially over Christmas, it didn't seem worth collecting.
This followed an earlier unsavory display I witnessed with another customer. So, I pretended to look around a bit, handed him $3.25, left and never returned.
Over the next decade, I did 6 figures in business with the other two stores. I never gave him another cent.
Irrelevant story, I know. But the point is, if it needs highlighting: everything you do influences your relationships. So, if I'm the dealer and it's my junk box, if you tell me you found a good coin I' m going to congratulate you and tell you to keep it and we will both trust each other more. Or if the dealer takes it back and says "that shouldn't have been in there" then you learn something about him also.
IMHO, of course.
Posting an example where the ethics are much more clearly defined is not relevant. Most of us can agree that it is correct to return a coin mistakenly included in a transaction where it was not meant to be included.
That isn’t “passing up a windfall” - it’s not committing theft. If you come into possession of a valuable item (e.g. Heritage ships you the wrong coin), you gave no consideration for it, and you know who to return it to, keeping it is generally considered theft.
Pretty clear cut and not at all relevant to a junk box find.
Let’s not remove the fun from sifting through junk boxes by implying that collectors should feel guilty for keeping finds.
Context matters.
I didn’t imply that “collectors should feel guilty for keeping finds” and neither did @jmlanzaf.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
People were insisting that dealers would not do the ethical thing, like send more money to whomever sold them the gold junk box coin. That was to whom I was responding. You are still missing the point. It is not about what to do with the junk box find. It was the assumption that no dealer would do the ethical thing if alerted to the gold coin.
Right after Christmas, I returned. When I walked in, he said "I added them up wrong last time you were here. You owe me $3,25."
...
This followed an earlier unsavory display I witnessed with another customer. So, I pretended to look around a bit, handed him $3.25, left and never returned.
Now, that's a cheezball coin dealer. I would have handed him a quarter and asked for 23 cents back in change.
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein