Followup Thread on CACG Crossover of PCGS Non CAC
howep
Posts: 71 ✭✭✭
My original post was of the 23 PL and DMPL dollars trying to cross to CACG where 21 failed to cross. CACG will not tell you the grade but will let you know if they consider DMPL or PL to not be applicable. That happened on 18 of the coins. I submitted another batch of 11 coins to CACG of which one was a PL and the other a DMPL. 5 crossed but neither Morgan Dollar did. I have eagle eye stickered Indians, rattler DMPL's and a few doily's all with no CAC sticker. They are going to a dealer friend for CAC submission so I do not lose the holders. I will inform of my success or failure in a few weeks
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Comments
Believe that the Eagle Eye coins were an automatic cross to CAC.
Good luck.
I have sent 3 Indian Cents w/ Eagle Eye Photo Seals to CACG. None of them crossed.
TBD
Still figuring out CACG and it may take a decade, but my understanding that CAC classic green stickers were an automatic on the EE copper. . Maybe that changed.
I was operating under that impression when I sent them in... was surprised to find out differently.
TBD
A while back @winesteven posted a detailed explanation of the differences between CAC and Eagle Eye stickers.
While MANY coins with Eagle Eye Photo Seals will get a CAC sticker, and MANY coins with CAC stickers will get Rick Snow’s Eagle Eye Photo seal, there are plenty of exceptions.
While JA and Rick Snow each have “similar” requirements for coins to merit their stickers as solid for the grade, when I was putting together my “unique” #7 current rank IHC set (EVERY coin merits BOTH stickers), I learned early on that they weigh various factors differently from each other. For example, Rick weighs strike quality and die state more heavily. Rick likes seeing good detail in the feather tips of the first three feathers from the left. He is also more sensitive to carbon spots, especially on those graded 65RD and higher.
On the other hand, I believe that CAC is apparently stricter on color originality.
Both JA and Rick have a wonderful professional respect for each other. The Photo Seal is probably the only sticker that CAC will not remove from the slab when they apply their own sticker.
Steve
My collecting “Pride & Joy” is my PCGS Registry Dansco 7070 Set:
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/design-type-sets/complete-dansco-7070-modified-type-set-1796-date/publishedset/213996
Steve, do you have a sense of the indicators that JA is stricter on than RS? I can see why you went for both stickers.
In my opinion, having both stickers on a coin (meeting the separate criteria of BOTH JA and Rick) is having the best of both worlds!
I believe that CAC is apparently stricter on color originality.
Steve
My collecting “Pride & Joy” is my PCGS Registry Dansco 7070 Set:
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/design-type-sets/complete-dansco-7070-modified-type-set-1796-date/publishedset/213996
Not intended to mean anything aside from what it says, but I would suggest you place more reliance on grading and less reliance on all the stickers. That's not a popular thing to say here. When you need an opinion by a major TPG, an opinion by a specialist and an opinion by a 4th party for a coin to be acceptable to you then something is amiss.
All this crap is why I sold off the bulk of my standard coins in the past several years and have focused on collecting Medals and other Exonumia where all the stickerests tend not to tread. I have confidence in my ability to grade, there is almost no interest in all the monkey-business that takes place with coins, there is less competition and the scarcity/rarity of the Medals tends to dwarf that of most coins. Additionally, the designs on Medals tend to be far more artistic, in a higher relief, larger and overall more beautiful.
I am back to the joy of collecting absent most of the BS that's crept in over the past 15-20 years.
I think it’s great that you have confidence in your ability to grade! My collection is quite broad, encompassing not only Copper Silver and Gold Type Sets and Indian Head Cents, but Flying Eagle Cents, Lincoln Wheats, Two Cent sets, Matte Proof Buffalo Nickels, Capped Bust Dimes, Full Band Merc Dimes, Twenty Cent set, Full Head Standing Lib Quarters, Proof Franklins, Classic Silver Commems, Morgan Dollars and Peace Dollars.
I decided a LONG time ago not to put in the time to develop grading skills like that of top graders. Most of my coins are in the low to mid four figures, so MY choice is to rely on the grading skills of those whose grading talent is a lot better than mine. I’ve also learned that at the TPG’s there’s variability with grading, which is subjective, so I’m more comfortable spending money on coins where JA’s trained team says the grades assigned for these coins are indeed solid for the grade, AND have not undergone surface treatments that apparently are acceptable to the TPG’s but not acceptable to CAC.
Rather than thinking of the services offered by CAC as BS, many of us see this as a positive development that benefits collectors. I remember back in the mid 1980’s when NGC and PCGS started grading and encapsulating raw coins. I heard the same comments, but many of us see that as a positive development too.
To each his own, and that’s one of the many nice things about our wonderful hobby. There’s no right or wrong!
Steve
My collecting “Pride & Joy” is my PCGS Registry Dansco 7070 Set:
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/design-type-sets/complete-dansco-7070-modified-type-set-1796-date/publishedset/213996
It was interesting to read of your strong interest in collecting medals and other Exonumia. I've often wondered how someone can put a value on them and it appears that value is not a major consideration for collecting them. Yes, I know they can be valuable.
In my financial situation, I need to have the value of what I am collecting easily identified in the future. In reading your statement, it would appear that the value of items you collect are not affected by difficult to determine surface treatments such as cleaning or PVC to the degree they affect standard coin values. This is the reason for the services of CAC (CACG).
One needs to consider how coins are purchased today vs pre-internet days. I haven’t bought many significant coins sight-seen for many years. The exceptions are HA auctions - I live in Dallas so am able to preview lots. My point is that no matter how good a grader one is, buying coins based on photographs is problematic at best, and buying opportunities for many of us is limited at least for the most part to relying on photographs and descriptions - and the services of professionals. I consider myself a pretty good grader for certain series (after 70 years or so) but would never consider buying a significant coin via the internet that was not graded by a major TPG, and in some cases one lacking a sticker for added confidence.
Exactly. I'll buy a coin on the internet. I'll pay far more if it's certified and even more if it's CAC. I just have more confidence that there won't be any surprises. I don't know why some people take this a some kind of numismatic affront. Whether my skills are less than or equal to a professional grader is irrelevant.
My feelings echo many on this thread. I want to have confidence that my coins won't contain any surprises when time to sell or trade. While none of the TPG's are perfect (no perfection in our hobby), I am more inclined to invest and collect coins that I love ie dmpl's, indian head and lincoln cents and rarer holders (which adds fun and excitement when located) when I know someone else I trust has agreed with the holder grade
For me this is still a hobby and I will always enjoy it even if sometimes my coins don't cross or sticker.
The sticker thing is nice but a point in time and does not prevent against future unfavorable reaction on coinage surfaces from reaction to the atmosphere, etc. Heat, humidity, salt air, biological attack, etc.
So in evaluating coins (stickered or otherwise) offered to me at shows - I go by my opinion of the coin, it’s potential to sell, and whether the deal is there for me. I might do TPG, CAC lookup to see if anything has changed on the coinage surfaces since time of photo vs current. Are there spots on it not there before, has tarnish worsened, unsightly dark areas, green pvc? Do I agree with the grade? Does it have good market demand? Material that fails my criteria is rejected.
@DisneyFan said: In reading your statement, it would appear that the value of items you collect are not affected by difficult to determine surface treatments such as cleaning or PVC to the degree they affect standard coin values.
No, not it at all. When I said that there is almost no interest in all the monkey-business that takes place with coins what I meant was that Medals and other Exonumia tend not to be doctored. It seems you inferred that I don't care about contaminants, AT, putty, thumbing, cleaning, dipping and any number of other things that mainstream collectors are overwhelmed by. I can assure you that those things concern me and I have done the best I can over the years to learn to identify them. The things I collect just aren't plagued with a multitude of problems and practitioners of those problems as coins are.
In my time here, learning how to grade and learning how to discern problems has always been at the top of the forum's list of pre-requisites for a new collector. Through the years that has changed, it doesn't seem to be as important as in days past. It's much easier, for any number of reasons, for a growing number of collectors to pony up the cash and let someone else do all the work. I think those types of people sell themselves short and cheat themselves out of much joy. But it is a growing choice.
One final point to @DisneyFan, your struggle with understanding Exonumia and its value tells me you might not want to try to comment about it and make assumptions. Feel free to do as you wish.
bought raw on eBay.
both bought raw from Stack's.
It seems you inferred that I don't care about contaminants, AT, putty, thumbing, cleaning, dipping and any number of other things that mainstream collectors are overwhelmed by. I can assure you that those things concern me and I have done the best I can over the years to learn to identify them. The things I collect just aren't plagued with a multitude of problems and practitioners of those problems as coins are.
In no way was I attacking your interest in Exonumia. What I was acknowledging was what you just said, "The things I collect just aren't plagued with a multitude of problems and practitioners of those problems as coins are. "
My experience is I tried with the best of my abilities to learn about grading and condition from some of the best books and dealers over the past 20 years only to learn from CAC submissions made by myself and friends that a very substantial number of our coins are failing.
I appreciated reading your description of collecting Exonumia and realized it goes beyond financial for you. You are certainly having fun and enjoying it.
I have collected medals for several years and it is a very different kettle of fish, at least in the esoteric specialty area I collect. Virtually no slabs, no larceny detected as of yet, difficult to price, little demand for scarce or rare items (but some very determined specialists on occasion), no reliable pops, very tough to locate, far less emphasis on grades. Great fun collecting and great skill and beauty in 300 year old medallic art. Love my US Federal, colonial, foreign, ancient, as well and the differences in collecting them. It’s all good.