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Clashed dies

seatedlib3991seatedlib3991 Posts: 720 ✭✭✭✭✭

I have been trying to understand the clashed die process. As I understand it, clashing occurs when the dies strike each other without a planchet in place. However, I have an 1860 Seated dime. The coin has die clashes on both the obverse and the reverse, but BOTH sets of clashes are from reverse dies? Does this mean two reverse dies where in place at the same time? Is this a common thing? I am more of a casual collector than any kind of numismatic expert and would like to hear any possible explanations , especially since I personally doubt they would be silly enough to make a mistake like that at the mint. James

Comments

  • jmlanzafjmlanzaf Posts: 34,247 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Is the clash in the reverse reversed?

    If so, I would think the reverse "clash" would be transfer from a struck coin rather than a second die. Perhaps after a blockage?

    If there were two reverse dies in place, there should be two-tailed coins or the Mint managed to clash the dies and remove all the two-tailed coins before they hit circulation.

  • seatedlib3991seatedlib3991 Posts: 720 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Clash marks on both sides are struck image forward. The coin is a Fortin 104 which naturally comes with reverse clash marks visa ve fortin description.

  • seatedlib3991seatedlib3991 Posts: 720 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Sorry, right after posting i noticed I put wrong fortin it is 105.

  • yosclimberyosclimber Posts: 4,790 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Photos?

  • seatedlib3991seatedlib3991 Posts: 720 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @yosclimber . I am so glad you checked in. you are one of the few people who I think would know what happened with this coin.
    I have no photo skills but the coin is in the Great Collections archive. It is an ANAC 55 yellow holder from the Nov. 20th 2022 auction. Price 146.25
    If you look at the obverse figure you will see a large piece of ribbon protruding from behind the right hand area. Another is further up. there are wreath parts through out the date area.
    The reverse clash marks are much harder to see but are blown up at the Fortin site where he has posted pictures.
    I truly hope you will take the time to look at it. james

  • yosclimberyosclimber Posts: 4,790 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Thank you for the photo location.
    Here are the photos from GC, cropped and doubled in size.


    I see the typical obv clash to viewer's left, in the field near the hand.


    I don't see the clash line above E2 (E in DIME) shown on Gerry's page, but that is a fairly thin
    clash line, and the older GC photos do not have a lot of resolution on smaller coins.

    Here is a link to Gerry Fortin's 1860 F-105 page:
    https://www.seateddimevarieties.com/date_mintmark/1860_105page.htm

  • seatedlib3991seatedlib3991 Posts: 720 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Coin in hand, I can tell you on the obverse there is a clash mark that transverses the middle to upper right arm of liberty. There are several clash pieces under and just above the first 3 numbers in the date. There is a clash mark between the Letter U in United and the figure of Liberty.
    On the reverse the largest clash mark is a group of marks between the gap in the upper wreath. There are other numerous pieces of clash that are under the entire One dime area but cannot be seen in the photo.
    Do let me know @yosclimber if you would ever care to see this coin in hand. It is not a rare date and I have my wife's permission to share this with you. james

  • messydeskmessydesk Posts: 19,969 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @seatedlib3991 said:
    I have been trying to understand the clashed die process. As I understand it, clashing occurs when the dies strike each other without a planchet in place. However, I have an 1860 Seated dime. The coin has die clashes on both the obverse and the reverse, but BOTH sets of clashes are from reverse dies? Does this mean two reverse dies where in place at the same time? Is this a common thing? I am more of a casual collector than any kind of numismatic expert and would like to hear any possible explanations , especially since I personally doubt they would be silly enough to make a mistake like that at the mint. James

    Without seeing the coin, you might be looking at a counter-clash. The first set of clash marks from reverse to obverse. The dies clash again, usually after some minor die rotation, and the clash marks on the obverse die transfer back to the reverse and can resemble a doubled die. I'd expect that you'd also see obverse design elements on the reverse, though, so maybe this isn't what you're looking at.

  • seatedlib3991seatedlib3991 Posts: 720 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I don't know if you are right or not. @messydesk . I am afraid I am not even close to being the person who can identify what is going on with this coin. I just know i have never seen the things involved here on any other coin before. i don't have any expectations of it being some expensive variety, but it is one of those things where I dearly want to know but don't have the skills to solve the puzzle. that is why i thought yosclimber might want to see it in person. James

  • yosclimberyosclimber Posts: 4,790 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Thank you for sharing your observations in hand.
    Most of my experience is with clashing on seated half dimes, but they are very similar to seated dimes for this.

    @seatedlib3991 said:
    Coin in hand,
    I can tell you on the obverse there is a clash mark that transverses the middle to upper right arm of liberty.

    Usually the clash will be mostly visible in the field, but sometime it can be on the arm or body.

    There are several clash pieces under and just above the first 3 numbers in the date.

    This is standard for a clash.

    There is a clash mark between the Letter U in United and the figure of Liberty.

    That's the one I see, which touches the arm.

    On the reverse the largest clash mark is a group of marks between the gap in the upper wreath.

    This is normal on seated half dimes. It comes from the base of Ms. Liberty.
    Sometimes there is a multiple clash, where one of them is rotated, so you might get both a level and sloped clash line.

    There are other numerous pieces of clash that are under the entire One dime area but cannot be seen in the photo.

    These are fairly normal on seated half dimes, usually from the high point of the obverse die between the arm and pole.

    Do let me know @yosclimber if you would ever care to see this coin in hand. It is not a rare date and I have my wife's permission to share this with you. james

    Thank you for offering.
    But I think what you describe is pretty normal for clashed dies, so I don't think it is needed.

    Clashes are pretty common on seated half dimes.
    Perhaps they are less frequently seen on seated dimes.
    So that would explain why you are not as familiar with them.

  • seatedlib3991seatedlib3991 Posts: 720 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Thanks for the feedback. actually, you could fit what I know about clash marks on a 3-m post it note with room to spare. James

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