Are coins with die breaks considered errors or varieties?
mr1931S
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I recently bought a Seated Liberty dime that has the coolest die break I have ever seen. I want to take a few pictures of it for all to take a look at. Unfortunately,my imaging equipment is not available to me at this time and my phone camera is not up to the job of showing this die break in all its glory. I hope to be able to do some more coin imaging in the not-too-distant future so I can show you all this 1891-O dime's spectacular (in my opinion) die break on this forum. I'm working on it. But first, a question:
Are coins with die breaks considered errors or varieties?
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
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Usually, die cracks are considered to be "die states".
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Varieties.
Agree. This is certainly the case with large cents. A die variety is a distinctly different die. As the dies wear and cracks and cuds develop, they are states of that same die, not a different die variety.
So to answer the op, it’s neither. It sounds like you may have a late or even terminal die state, of whatever die your coin was struck on. And these can be quite collectible to specialists.
Disclaimer: I'm not a dealer, trader, grader, investor or professional numismatist. I'm just a hobbyist. (To protect me but mostly you! 🤣 )
If you look at the books of Bill Bugert on Seated halves he uses the terms Early die State, Mid Die State, and Late Die State. Most of the time this is in reference to die breaks. Bust Halves even have specific designations (usually add an A) and you have to have specific die breaks on the coin. James
According to this recent PCGS article, "die breaks" are both errors and varieties.
Source: https://www.pcgs.com/news/coin-error-or-variety
It's a die state (not an error), that can become a variety if enough people care about it. An error (should be) limited to something out of the ordinary that happens during the minting process. Die deterioration is part of the ordinary process and will happen to all dies if left in service long enough. No one thinks "orange peel" dies are errors, nor should die cracks be "errors".
Thank you all for your thoughtful answers.
My next question is:
Does PCGS have Liberty Seated series attribution specialists on its staff who can identify die states on these coins? I would be looking to slab my 1891-O dime but would want it labelled, minimally, as from whatever die state it is in. My dime will go in a DIY slab with my own label for the time being but I consider it special and deserving of the full monty, if you will. Just labelling it "1891-O" dime "PCGS XF40" is not enough attention on the label for this piece, in my opinion. This "error die state whatever variety" is spectacular and I'm looking forward to posting images of it on this forum.
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
I’d probably start with checking references from Gerry Fortin(sp?) as well as forum specialists, (if you can even post an iPhone pic), then proceed from there.
There are two 1891-o shattered reverses per Gerry Fortin's website.
Cuds are also listed.
Aren't most VAM varieties based on die cracks?
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Are there any printed books for multiple series with illustrations of cracks, cuds, etc.?
God bless all who believe in him. Do unto others what you expect to be done to you. Dubbed a "Committee Secret Agent" by @mr1931S on 7/23/24. Founding member of CU Anti-Troll League since 9/24/24.
It appears that Fortin's website will be my next go to place.
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
I bet @yosclimber will have some wisdom to drop on this topic...
New website: Groovycoins.com Capped Bust Half Dime registry set: Bikergeek CBHD LM Set
His website is all things Liberty Seated.
Gerry Fortin's site is quite complete for seated dime varieties, including die cracks.
https://www.seateddimevarieties.com/index.htm
I try to do similar for seated half dimes, but I'm far from complete on the years at present.
https://sites.google.com/view/clintcummins/half-dime-attribution-guide
Some people call die cracks die states and not varieties,
but others include major die states as varieties (myself included).
I prefer the term "die pairs" to cover that more restricted definition of "die varieties".
Gerry and I use numbers for die pairs, and append letters for die states, so the distinction is clear.
Logan and McCloskey (Federal Half Dimes 1792-1837) do not designate major die states with letters.
However, they do use fractional decimals (LM 8.1, 8.2, etc.) to identify remarriages, which are identified by die states.
On seated coins, especially 1853-55 or Philadelphia minted, often die cracks are needed to identify the die(s)!
This is because the main markers are date position and mint mark position.
But the date position is fixed on the hub on most 1853-55 coins,
and of course those made in Philadelphia have no mint mark position.