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CACG Crossover of PCGS Non CAC

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  • SoldiSoldi Posts: 2,177 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @HillbillyCollector said:

    @Soldi said:
    Read the thread or is that your problem? You can't. I make a statement of fact and an opinion I don't need your ja'ka$$ remarks. Neither does anyone else

    >
    Ouch, pretty harsh, no?

    Yeah! The nerve of that WineSteven to criticize a fact and an opinion on why they don't cross. It's an opinion. Jeez thanx hillbilly

  • SoldiSoldi Posts: 2,177 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Read the thread and see why dmpls might not cross consider my FACT about the market maker being so tough and CAC standards. I can't see how my opinion has got all your panties in a bunch. Read the entire thread.

    Furthermore I know what hillbilly was doing/saying. It was a joke when thanked him. You guys are too anal 😍

  • DisneyFanDisneyFan Posts: 2,052 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Soldi said:
    It's all ballshoot ! So is the cac concept, remember this, never forget it, CAC HAS TO BUY THE COIN. I don't care what it is if it stickers they have to buy it. They make a market so, think about it.

    Furthermore it's just my opinion, but all it does is narrow down the desireablity of a coin(s) limiting the market. It's not good, too subjective to someone liking your coin.

    It's easy to criticize or buy CAC (CACG) coins. It another thing to submit to them and learn your coins are not what you thought they were.

  • SoldiSoldi Posts: 2,177 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited August 3, 2024 12:23PM

    @DisneyFan said:

    @Soldi said:
    It's all ballshoot ! So is the cac concept, remember this, never forget it, CAC HAS TO BUY THE COIN. I don't care what it is if it stickers they have to buy it. They make a market so, think about it.

    Furthermore it's just my opinion, but all it does is narrow down the desireablity of a coin(s) limiting the market. It's not good, too subjective to someone liking your coin.

    It's easy to criticize or buy CAC (CACG) coins. It another thing to submit to them and learn your coins are not what you thought they were.

    And exactly why I wrote marketmaker has to buy them if sticker placed on.and why I made my opinion CLEARLY. Yes indeed if the almighty doesn't agree they're dmpl you just have to pretend? They are? Cause the finalizer rejected the designation.

    Grading is out of control and now its being brought back into control? By the founder of NGC. I don't think so. I opine
    And have empathy for the guy who sent all his dmpls in and got few stickers

  • lermishlermish Posts: 2,891 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Soldi said:

    @DisneyFan said:

    @Soldi said:
    It's all ballshoot ! So is the cac concept, remember this, never forget it, CAC HAS TO BUY THE COIN. I don't care what it is if it stickers they have to buy it. They make a market so, think about it.

    Furthermore it's just my opinion, but all it does is narrow down the desireablity of a coin(s) limiting the market. It's not good, too subjective to someone liking your coin.

    It's easy to criticize or buy CAC (CACG) coins. It another thing to submit to them and learn your coins are not what you thought they were.

    And exactly why I wrote marketmaker has to buy them if sticker placed on.and why I made my opinion CLEARLY. Yes indeed if the almighty doesn't agree they're dmpl you just have to pretend? They are? Cause the finalizer rejected the designation.

    Grading is out of control and now its being brought back into control? By the founder of NGC. I don't think so. I opine
    And have empathy for the guy who sent all his dmpls in and got few stickers

    You're emphasizing FACT. I think you are missing the FACT that you are not making a lot of sense.

    My interpretation is that you don't care for CAC? Is that correct? Is that the point you are trying to make? That is certainly your prerogative, I don't think anyone has issue with your opinion (if indeed that is your opinion). Truly, it's not CLEAR.

    It would be a lot easier for all if you just stated whatever point you are trying to get across rather than trying to obliquely make some point and then getting your panties in a twist when no one can follow your "logic".

  • SoldiSoldi Posts: 2,177 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Dear Lame , read the entire thread then my FACT then my opinion and be less of a lame panty buncher.

  • DisneyFanDisneyFan Posts: 2,052 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Soldi said:

    And exactly why I wrote marketmaker has to buy them if sticker placed on.and why I made my opinion CLEARLY. Yes indeed if the almighty doesn't agree they're dmpl you just have to pretend? They are? Cause the finalizer rejected the designation.

    Grading is out of control and now its being brought back into control? By the founder of NGC. I don't think so. I opine
    And have empathy for the guy who sent all his dmpls in and got few stickers

    I think you are missing

    @howep said:
    I have been buying dmpl's for 50 years.... In my heart of hearts while not every DMPL should look the same given the date characteristics, I knew that many of the PCGS DMPL's which should have had clear, 8 inch mirrors, did not but were still holdered by PCGS as DMPL.

  • lermishlermish Posts: 2,891 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Soldi said:
    It's all ballshoot ! So is the cac concept, remember this, never forget it, CAC HAS TO BUY THE COIN. I don't care what it is if it stickers they have to buy it. They make a market so, think about it.

    Furthermore it's just my opinion, but all it does is narrow down the desireablity of a coin(s) limiting the market. It's not good, too subjective to someone liking your coin.

    Ok, I've read the whole thread as instructed. I've thought about it and I agree with your facts and your opinion. It is all BS. The only difference of opinion is to what we are referring.

    My kingdom for a rolling eyes emoji!

  • SoldiSoldi Posts: 2,177 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited August 3, 2024 1:06PM

    I'm not missing that! That is what I'm defending for the submission to cac that pcgs recognized the coins as dmpl but CAC doesn't so now the subjective god makes your coin a lesser than or perhaps a "c" coin

    Its a grading argument and CAC is not the answer to something so subjective furthermore I'll start downloading so fugly coins with green stickers.

    I empathize with the submissions disappointment. The End

  • DMWJRDMWJR Posts: 6,006 ✭✭✭✭✭

    This has always been talked about when discussing different yrs/mms in each series. Take a small series I studied for a long time - flying eagles. There are differences between the look of proofs in those three years. You are not going to find a 57 cam that looks anything like a 58 SL cam. So do we hold them to the same standard or do we say “this 57 is a close to cam as 57’s get.” That’s a form of gradeflation. Does CAC hold every date to the same standard?

    Doug
  • MFeldMFeld Posts: 13,459 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @DocBenjamin said:

    @MFeld said:

    @DocBenjamin said:

    @MFeld said:

    @jmlanzaf said:

    @PerryHall said:

    @DocBenjamin said:

    @howep said:
    Thank you. I have been buying dmpl's for 50 years. In fact you auctioned some for me in 1981 at a Steve Ivy Auction in Dallas. Bought my first DMPL direct from Wayne Miller. In my heart of hearts while not every DMPL should look the same given the date characteristics, I knew that many of the PCGS DMPL's which should have had clear, 8 inch mirrors, did not but were still holdered by PCGS as DMPL. That should not happen with CACG and hopefully not with CAC stickers. Laura Sperber gave me the heads up that CACG is very tough on DMPL's. Wanted to see for my self

    Laura should know. She created the industry disrupter.

    Does Laura have that much influence in the hobby?

    I think he is calling CAC the industry disrupter.

    I think so too, but Laura certainly didn't create it.

    Laura was a very vocal critic of "gradeflation" when I got into this hobby/business two decades ago and was a catalyst of fourth party verification (CAC). Her partner was a CAC investor and I believe that Ms. Sperber was as well, at least by proxy.

    I don't know any of that to be incorrect and being a catalyst is a good thing, as far as I'm concerned. That's not the same thing as creating, however.

    I'll consult my thesaurus next time. ;)

    @Soldi said:
    It's all ballshoot ! So is the cac concept, remember this, never forget it, CAC HAS TO BUY THE COIN. I don't care what it is if it stickers they have to buy it. They make a market so, think about it.

    Furthermore it's just my opinion, but all it does is narrow down the desireablity of a coin(s) limiting the market. It's not good, too subjective to someone liking your coin.

    CAC doesn’t make markets in anywhere close to all coin types, dates or grades. And even if they did, they’d still be free to set limits regarding the quantities purchased. So remember this, and never forget it, CAC DOESN’T have to buy the coin.

    Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.

  • coinkatcoinkat Posts: 23,081 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Grading is subjective and opinions can change over time. I have typed this in so many times that it is disturbing. An opinion captured on a slab is that same opinion that can change. However, the coin really should remain constant and NOT subject to change unless it is enhanced. So… what is more important… a coin that remains constant unless some clown thinks they can improve it but the end result is something like Elsa Lanchester as The Bride of Frankenstein. It is about the coin and how it resonates within the grading spectrum. And that spectrum can change.There are certain coins with the look that are simply more important than what the current TPG might be.

    They key is to learn and recognize what matters.

    Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.

  • SoldiSoldi Posts: 2,177 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited August 3, 2024 1:59PM

    Feld thank you for making my point and yes they have to buy the sticker coins.

  • MFeldMFeld Posts: 13,459 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Soldi said:
    Feld thank you for making my point and yes they have to buy the sticker coins.

    I didn’t make your point - I refuted it. And no, they don’t.

    Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.

  • SoldiSoldi Posts: 2,177 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @MFeld said:

    @Soldi said:
    Feld thank you for making my point and yes they have to buy the sticker coins.

    I didn’t make your point - I refuted it. And no, they don’t.

    I never said they did in all grades and types and dates. You're wrong. Been there done this!

    It's just one more hoop a person who likes his coin has to jump thru in order to have a market.

    If he stickers it he buys it. I don't care who you think you are Feld !
    I've been there and done this.

    Just because I'm not in your click here doesn't mean this is my first rodeo.

  • MFeldMFeld Posts: 13,459 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited August 3, 2024 2:23PM

    @Soldi said:

    @MFeld said:

    @Soldi said:
    Feld thank you for making my point and yes they have to buy the sticker coins.

    I didn’t make your point - I refuted it. And no, they don’t.

    I never said they did in all grades and types and dates. You're wrong. Been there done this!

    It's just one more hoop a person who likes his coin has to jump thru in order to have a market.

    If he stickers it he buys it. I don't care who you think you are Feld !
    I've been there and done this.

    Just because I'm not in your click here doesn't mean this is my first rodeo.

    Since they don’t have to buy all CAC coins - and obviously, they don’t - your blanket statement copied below is incorrect. And because you didn’t get it the first two times, just because they sticker it doesn’t mean they (have to) buy it. Whatever number of rodeos you’ve been doesn’t change that. Hopefully, you enjoyed them, anyway.

    “ So is the cac concept, remember this, never forget it, CAC HAS TO BUY THE COIN. I don't care what it is if it stickers they have to buy it. They make a market so, think about it.”

    Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.

  • SoldiSoldi Posts: 2,177 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited August 3, 2024 2:29PM

    Read the thread FELD you blankets it. . I did not. I'm speaking regarding the op and his dmpls

    Like I said he makes a market in CAC sticker coins . Been there and done this.

    I don't care who you think you are FELD read the thread. All of it.

  • M4MadnessM4Madness Posts: 322 ✭✭✭✭

    I'm totally confused. LMAO! How does CAC buy all the stickered coins?

  • DocBenjaminDocBenjamin Posts: 1,342 ✭✭✭✭✭

    To your corners gentleman and take a breath.

    CAC and now CACG have brought much confusion to the market since their inception since I recall 2006.

    A ton of threads archived regarding "what is the guarantee" "do they consider PL and DMPL on Morgans" "do they make a market in coins that they verify/grade" and the metrics keep changing.

    Heard that it was a tool for JA to identify coins worthy of his potential future puchase. Seems plausible, but that is of minimal value to the collector.

    I believe the value is in detecting bogus or tampered holders, but who knows how much effort is really put into that aspect.

    Confusion seems to benefit the market makers more than the consumers.

  • SoldiSoldi Posts: 2,177 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @MFeld said:
    When multiple thread participants have difficulty understanding what points a particular poster’s trying to make, perhaps he, rather than they, should read the thread. And while he’s at it, he might try using the “quote” function to provide some context to his replies.

    "No quotes"
    Yes, I agree, the thread tends to snowball bigger and bigger.

    Too late now, sorry I blew my cool, but I speak from experience.
    Thank you

  • CatbertCatbert Posts: 7,119 ✭✭✭✭✭

    My experience has been that JA will usually make an offer on a stickered coin if solicited. I do think his sticker was designed to "make a market", however, I don't view this as a guarantee since there would be no way he could afford buying all stickered coins even if he wanted to.

    Seated Half Society member #38
    "Got a flaming heart, can't get my fill"
  • jmlanzafjmlanzaf Posts: 34,097 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Catbert said:
    My experience has been that JA will usually make an offer on a stickered coin if solicited. I do think his sticker was designed to "make a market", however, I don't view this as a guarantee since there would be no way he could afford buying all stickered coins even if he wanted to.

    He doesn't buy everything. And he often will tell you that he is not likely the higher buyer for certain coins or coin series.

  • jmlanzafjmlanzaf Posts: 34,097 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Soldi said:

    @MFeld said:

    @Soldi said:
    Feld thank you for making my point and yes they have to buy the sticker coins.

    I didn’t make your point - I refuted it. And no, they don’t.

    I never said they did in all grades and types and dates. You're wrong. Been there done this!

    It's just one more hoop a person who likes his coin has to jump thru in order to have a market.

    If he stickers it he buys it. I don't care who you think you are Feld !
    I've been there and done this.

    Just because I'm not in your click here doesn't mean this is my first rodeo.

    He will quote on a CAC sticker coin. He does not guarantee to buy it or even to be the higher buyer. He's often not even the bigger buyer in the CDN Exchange.

  • winestevenwinesteven Posts: 4,508 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @jmlanzaf said:

    @Soldi said:

    @MFeld said:

    @Soldi said:
    Feld thank you for making my point and yes they have to buy the sticker coins.

    I didn’t make your point - I refuted it. And no, they don’t.

    I never said they did in all grades and types and dates. You're wrong. Been there done this!

    It's just one more hoop a person who likes his coin has to jump thru in order to have a market.

    If he stickers it he buys it. I don't care who you think you are Feld !
    I've been there and done this.

    Just because I'm not in your click here doesn't mean this is my first rodeo.

    He will quote on a CAC sticker coin. He does not guarantee to buy it or even to be the higher buyer. He's often not even the bigger buyer in the CDN Exchange.

    Yes, very true, BUT, if there's an issue that is legitimately perceived as a CAC issue, he will gladly pay a fair retail price. I recognize this point I'm making is unrelated to the points made by the prior replies.

    Steve

    A day without fine wine and working on your coin collection is like a day without sunshine!!!

    My collecting “Pride & Joy” is my PCGS Registry Dansco 7070 Set:
    https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/design-type-sets/complete-dansco-7070-modified-type-set-1796-date/publishedset/213996
  • jmlanzafjmlanzaf Posts: 34,097 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @winesteven said:

    @jmlanzaf said:

    @Soldi said:

    @MFeld said:

    @Soldi said:
    Feld thank you for making my point and yes they have to buy the sticker coins.

    I didn’t make your point - I refuted it. And no, they don’t.

    I never said they did in all grades and types and dates. You're wrong. Been there done this!

    It's just one more hoop a person who likes his coin has to jump thru in order to have a market.

    If he stickers it he buys it. I don't care who you think you are Feld !
    I've been there and done this.

    Just because I'm not in your click here doesn't mean this is my first rodeo.

    He will quote on a CAC sticker coin. He does not guarantee to buy it or even to be the higher buyer. He's often not even the bigger buyer in the CDN Exchange.

    Yes, very true, BUT, if there's an issue that is legitimately perceived as a CAC issue, he will gladly pay a fair retail price. I recognize this point I'm making is unrelated to the points made by the prior replies.

    Steve

    Yes, that comes under the guarantee which is, as you say, different. In fact, you could argue it's the opposite: he won't buy every CAC stickered coin but he will buy every CAC stickered coin that DOESN'T merit a sticker.

  • @JohnBCoins said:

    @leothelyon said:
    Two posters here with 50 years of studying coins and one gets only 5 crosses out of 31 coins submitted? Something is up with that. This prompt me to look over/into their website (CACG) for what information they had on their coin grading team.....the site only shows two guys. One looks like he's smiling too much while the other looks like he forgot to say "CHEEZE!" lol But anyway, I couldn't find any info on what experience they might have in grading coins but maybe its there on the site somewhere. For certain, they didn't look old enough to have enough years anywhere near what the two posters have.
    In my World of PL Jefferson nickels, there are Semi Proof-like (SPL) fields, About Semi PL (ASPL) fields, PL fields, Full PL fields (FPL), there are likely others. But anyway, I have a sample of Jefferson nickels that I have accumulated over 34+ years. Bought another sample of 313 Jefferson nickels, many with varying degrees of mirrors or levels of PL fields from a 45 year collector. And from those two samples there are/I have PL, FPL, ASPL, SPL coins. For sure, the ones with the deeper mirrors will always look more stunning than those with less mirrors but that's the way it is! I'm not going to dismiss a coin due to having paler mirrors over another. Coins that will give a collector a level of eye appeal with each coin that leads and encourages the appetite to continue on with the hunt/journey to discover more very fascinating coins for their collections. It's not about someone holding an unreachable bar/standard on what's PL or not, that's ludicrous, to say the least. We've already had to put up with people who can't tell an EDS strike from a mushy one. It's just a matter of time before they come full circle on what a sample of a series grades/looks like. They're not even grading 5 step Jeffersons yet, is another example of inexperience. I wouldn't submit again until they get their act together, like for a couple of years.

    Leo

    @MFeld I appreciate your support on this thread.
    Leo,
    I am the one that purposely did not say 'Cheeze". I have never been a fan of that gimmick going back to my childhood pictures. Mom was unhappy with me more than once for that stance.
    I can tell you that the first DMPL dollar I purchased was a monster mirror 1879-S Morgan Dollar in which I paid at the time a very strong price of $15. It was more than triple what the typical 1879-S Morgan dollar traded for at the time. There was no DMPL pricing at the time. I will let you check with the posters with 50+ years of experience to figure out what year that may have been. My father and I also purchased GSAs from the first GSA sale for resale at the local coin shows for another time reference for you. I had already started buying and selling coins at our local coin shows by that time. I mostly focused on Lincoln Cents, Walking Liberty Half Dollars, Franklin Half Dollars FBLs, gorgeous commemoratives and Morgan & Peace Dollars at that time. What really turned me on to DMPL dollars was Les & Sue Fox's Silver Dollar Fortune Telling book. The estimates of how few Proof-Like Morgan Dollars existed had me totally hooked. After that I was off to the races when it came to DMPLs. I was called crazy & even an idiot many times for the prices I was paying and charging for DMPL dollars and Commemoratives with fantastic color back in those days. That's where I made most of my early money in the coin business. I would estimate over 80% of my profits came from DMPLs at the time. My best show from that time period was the 1980 Cincinnati ANA, when I made what would still be considered substantial money in 2024, flipping DMPLs to Ed Noble, Fernandez & Armstrong, Wayne Hummel & Steele Eunson from Louisiana, Yitzy and Mark Grodin. The most amazing DMPL from that show was the 1887-O DMPL that Mark bought for either $3000 or $4000 which was monster money at the time. To see what the coin looked like you can check out PCGS pop report for DMPLs. His coin was likely either the 66DMPL or the second 65+DMPL. The first 65+DMPL has too many marks on the face to be Mark Grodin's coin. I do have over 50 years experience buying and selling coins. I may be a tad short of 50 years on DMPLs but probably by not more than 12-18 months.

    John Butler

    Les Fox...have not heard that name in years...also bought his book and subscribed to his newsletter....i also bought one of his Frontenac Peanut Butter Cans he was promoting in his newsletter...still have the peanut butter can...buying coins out of coin world so different than today...recall read every issue cover to cover...bought coins from Bowers and Ruddy, M.B. Simons, David Hall, Royco, Silver State Coins, Teachers Precious Metals, Gaithersburg Coin Exchange, Robert C Hambelton, Grover Criswell, Modern Coin of Chesterfield, Discount Brokerage among others from 35 to 45 years ago I dealt with,,,Those were the days!

  • ProofCollectionProofCollection Posts: 6,109 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @jmlanzaf said:

    @winesteven said:

    @jmlanzaf said:

    @Soldi said:

    @MFeld said:

    @Soldi said:
    Feld thank you for making my point and yes they have to buy the sticker coins.

    I didn’t make your point - I refuted it. And no, they don’t.

    I never said they did in all grades and types and dates. You're wrong. Been there done this!

    It's just one more hoop a person who likes his coin has to jump thru in order to have a market.

    If he stickers it he buys it. I don't care who you think you are Feld !
    I've been there and done this.

    Just because I'm not in your click here doesn't mean this is my first rodeo.

    He will quote on a CAC sticker coin. He does not guarantee to buy it or even to be the higher buyer. He's often not even the bigger buyer in the CDN Exchange.

    Yes, very true, BUT, if there's an issue that is legitimately perceived as a CAC issue, he will gladly pay a fair retail price. I recognize this point I'm making is unrelated to the points made by the prior replies.

    Steve

    Yes, that comes under the guarantee which is, as you say, different. In fact, you could argue it's the opposite: he won't buy every CAC stickered coin but he will buy every CAC stickered coin that DOESN'T merit a sticker.

    Or in my case, CAC paid the difference of what we agreed the sticker was worth and I kept the coin (with sticker removed).

  • SoldiSoldi Posts: 2,177 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @seatedlib3991 said:
    Wow. I have just read the entire thread. Won't claim I understood it all but sorta understand what @Catbert said. @Soldi, you have quite the reaction to being asked a question. hope I am never the "next" customer behind you at a restaurant. I got enough people spitting in my food allready. James

    I spoke from experience and by the "me too I'll jump on Soldi too" position you took it's no wonder your food gets spat in. Nice analogy jagoff.

  • MFeldMFeld Posts: 13,459 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Soldi said:

    @seatedlib3991 said:
    Wow. I have just read the entire thread. Won't claim I understood it all but sorta understand what @Catbert said. @Soldi, you have quite the reaction to being asked a question. hope I am never the "next" customer behind you at a restaurant. I got enough people spitting in my food allready. James

    I spoke from experience and by the "me too I'll jump on Soldi too" position you took it's no wonder your food gets spat in. Nice analogy jagoff.

    Flagged.

    Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.

  • seatedlib3991seatedlib3991 Posts: 706 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Lol. @Soldi. Truly, I hope you don't let every tiny thing in life upset you. I am somebody you don't even know on a casual chat board about coins. If you can't learn to laugh at yourself you will always end up crying at the end of the day. james

This discussion has been closed.