So Joe Mauer is a hall of famer….
Darin
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but Will Clark isn’t?
Half of his career Joe was a singles hitting DH/ first baseman. I understand catching adds value as an important defensive position. But Mauer only caught in 900 games and was done catching at age 30. You experts here always told me you need power from the first base position or DH. The twins didn’t get power from Joe.
I’ve always said Will Clark should be in the HOF and the responses here were always, oh he didn’t do enough for a first baseman to deserve it.
Well now I’m telling you experts,
Will Clark was a much better player than Mauer and is easily HOF caliber. And sorry it’s not debatable at this point.
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Clark is without question much better than Mauer. I still wouldnt put Clark in but Mauer getting in is a joke. Then again the HOF voters have been making a joke of themselves for a while now
Wisconsin 2-6 against the SEC since 2007
From age 30 to the end of his career, Mauer hit 49 home runs, slugged .400, and ops+ was 110.
This is as a first baseman/DH.
A power bat position, correct?
I don't think it is outlandish to say Clark was better than Mauer. The positional adjustments in any advanced stat are not iron clad. I agree that first base gets degraded too much by those measurements, but by how much is just an approximation. I also agree that catchers get upgraded too much, and again, by how much is an approximation.
That certainly leaves open a little more room in any measurement that gives a definitive positional adjustment rating.
Clark was clearly a better hitter for their careers and that is certainly without debate.
Basebal21 thank you. I knew Beltre had been voted in but didn’t pay attention to who else was in.
Helton was the other one. I wouldnt have put him in either but Mauer is a joke getting in. Theres people that voted for Mauer but not for Helton or Adrian Gonzalez. Im not sure what kind of mental gymnastics that requires to vote like that other than just being a Twins fan or not knowing baseball and thinking Mauer was a catcher his whole career. But yea If Mauer is in than Gonzalez, Galarraga, Clark, Helton etc should all be in too
Wisconsin 2-6 against the SEC since 2007
The catcher upgrade is alright, its a brutal position. Problem with Mauer though is I dont consider him a catcher. He spent more games at other positions than he did catching.
He also had one monster year that he never really came close to repeating Brady Anderson style
Wisconsin 2-6 against the SEC since 2007
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Not really, his first 10 years he was a catcher who DHed on days he got a break from catching. His last 5 seasons were at 1st base and he also DHed during that time.
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Lots of his critics said Mauer should have hit more home runs for a guy his size. He had a .323 BA a 135 OPS+ and 3 batting titles in his first 10 years, and was a superb defensive catcher, before getting hurt.
His last 5 years at 1st base he was barely an average player.
I never thought he did enough to make the HOF longevity wise, but those first 10 years certainly were good enough.
Injuries have kept guys like Mattingly out, I guess the voters decided Joe did enough before getting hurt.
I would NOT have voted him in.
Lastly, comparing him to Clark is a little unfair. Clark, being a 1st baseman, would be expected to hit better.
If Clark got in, it wouldn't bother me much, but I think he's borderline at best.
6 years wopuld really be the max with his injury year. He has 5 seasons where he caught 100 games or more. He had a late call up his first year of like 30 something games in 2004 and 2010 was his last year being a full time catcher. He put up some innings but the majority of his career he was a part time catcher which is significantly easier
Half his career was at first base which cant be ignored
Will is a little unfair of a comparison, but controversial players aside how are people voting for Mauer and not Jones or Helton or Gonzalez who was better than Helton
Yaddie was a borderline guy at best but now he has to get in if Mauer is the standard.
While I wouldnt put in Will or Todd, the Joe one does bother me a bit in the sense of what is the bar supposed to be? Is this just a popularity contest now which it seems to be? Theres been a couple years now of players that really shouldnt be there getting in
Wisconsin 2-6 against the SEC since 2007
joe is not a HOFer
I would vote for Clark
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
If it were up to me neither Mauer or Clark would be in the conversation and about 1/4 of the guys in would be ripped out of the HOF
While I still enjoy the MLB hall of fame, and always will. They lost me as far as their overall credibility when they let in Bill Mazeroski.
What Maier did while a catcher was more valuable than what Clark did as a 1B except maybe during the 1989 NLCS.
Mauer compares more favorably to the Catchers in the HOF than Clark does to the 1B. While Clark was an excellent fielder - 1B was the best hitter who was limited defensively until the DH came. Now that the DH is in both leagues what is expected from a 1B is much less and probably adjusts over decades.
You could add 1000 outs to Mauer’s OBP and his OBP would still be higher than Bench, Fisk, and Carter. If you don’t think he should be in the HOF, fine. But too bad because he’s in.
Those guys were full time catchers and had a lot more defensive value than Mauer.
Games at catcher
Fisk- 2200
Carter- 2000
Bench- 1700
Mauer- 900
I’m starting to think Salvador Perez will be first ballot HOF. 1200+ games caught already and I don’t think a game goes by that he doesn’t get hit by at least one foul tip. Tough as nails.
I don't understand this fascination with Will Clark. I suspect it's due to members being kids/teens when he was playing and those rose-colored glasses obscure any rational argument.
Clark had a very nice career, well above average; however, he did not have a Hall of Fame-level career. No MVP awards and 4 top-5 finishes is not a HoF career. When you aren't even a sustained, dominant player in your era you certainly aren't a dominant player of all time.
Mauer, on the other hand, had back-to-back MVP wins and did so at a premium position.
I do not have time for ignorant trolls.
ignore list: 1948_Swell_Robinson, Darin, bgr, bronco2078, dallasactuary
Joe Mauer presents an interesting case. As an Indians fan I got to watch him play quite a bit and always thought he was a really good defensive catcher and a tough out. He may not have hit the home runs/rbi that a guy like Johnny Bench did(who most catchers are measured against) but his other numbers are certainly good enough.
Who knows if Mauer should be in the HOF, the voters thought so and I guess that's all that matters. Catchers tend to be judged differently than other position players so the really good hitting catchers always get preference. I think that's the case here, Mauer was a really good hitter, maybe not a power hitter but a tough out.
First, I'm supportive of a more inclusive HOF.
Second, I was surprised Mauer was a first-ballot HOF player. The reality is that his career was based on 9+ years as a hitting catcher. The concussion(s) he suffered impeded his overall production while ending his catching career. I also believe he benefited from surge in NFL/CTE talk over recent years. If he had suffered any other injury, his chance for HOF election goes down.
Last, I think a better catcher comparison to get in would be Thurman Munson. He (and his family) are deserving of the honor.
Last - Last, the case for first basemen getting elected for the likes of: Clark, Mattingly, Garvey, Hernandez, and even The Big Cat, Andres G. suffer from WAR undervaluing the position. I don't like that.
Erik
Munson's life-ending tragedy was just that - a tragedy; however coldly it may sound, there is no world in which he is deserving of the hall of fame.
None of those first basement you list should be in the hall. They all had nice, above average careers, none are hall-worthy, however.
I do not have time for ignorant trolls.
ignore list: 1948_Swell_Robinson, Darin, bgr, bronco2078, dallasactuary
.328 average, an MVP, three batting titles, and multiple gold gloves at catcher got Mauer into the Hall. Not sure I'd vote him in but I'm OK with it.
That Thurman Munson was pretty good. He was working on a pretty great career. I think he will get in.
@Mistlin said: Munson's life-ending tragedy was just that - a tragedy; however coldly it may sound, there is no world in which he is deserving of the hall of fame.
I don't know if either man should be in the MLB HOF, but here are their career statistics for everyone to compare. The conclusion is clear to me: if the first is held as noteworthy the second should be viewed as electable.
Thurman Munson career.
WAR 46.1 AB 5344 H 1558 HR 113 BA .292 R 696 RBI 701 SB 48 OBP .346 SLG .410 OPS .756 OPS+ 116
Joe Mauer career.
WAR 55.2 AB 6930 H 2123 HR 143 BA .306 R 1018 RBI 923 SB 52 OBP .388 SLG .439 OPS .827 OPS+ 124
Sorry, Munson may have the best baseball card of all time (I am looking at you, 1971 topps #5), but no way do his stats and short career warrant induction.
I do not have time for ignorant trolls.
ignore list: 1948_Swell_Robinson, Darin, bgr, bronco2078, dallasactuary
I disagree in precise opposition this cancelling your opinion. Muahahahahabaha
Wow. I need to do some finger exercises. That total shred was supposed to say…
“thus cancelling” and I have no excuse for the misc. ‘b’. You deserve better.