1923 MS64FT
RonaldDay
Posts: 109 ✭✭✭
I had broken out a PCGS graded MS64FT for my album. I do that when I can't find one I like enough raw. Recently I found a nicer one for my album so I figured I sent it off the ANACS with mixed submission of other coins I had lying around the house.
I'm getting the coin back in a Body Bag - Cleaned.
Just last week I had two foreign coins that I had broken out of NGC slabs and they came back from PCGS as PVC residue and Questionable Color.
FWIW PCGS was right about the PVC residue, I cleaned it up with acetone. As for the color, it wasn't an unreasonable call, Its a bright bronze coin and the luster doesn't seem to be 100% of what it should be. It's there, there are cartwheels, just subdued - not an obvious call, but I'm not losing any sleep over it.
Anybody else getting results like this?
Comments
It's the Peter Principle applied to coins.
If you crack out enough coins from any company’s holder and submit them to a different (or even the same) grading company, eventually, you’ll likely get similar results.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
In my case the coins got demoted after reaching their level of incompetence.
I've had up/down grades before, but this these last three were BodyBagged!. These are the first I've seen that were that bad. Here is the thing that REALLY gets my goat, none of the grading companies "Guarantee" covers coins like this, they call them "mechanical errors" and the customer is left holding the bag.
Peter is not amused.
What you experienced isn’t nearly as surprising to me as it was to you. It even happens to the sharpest of graders from time to time. And it has nothing to do with “mechanical errors”.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
NGC uses FT for Roosevelt Dimes, and FB for Mercury dimes. PCGS uses FB for both types.
Young Numismatist • My Toned Coins
Life is roadblocks. Don't let nothing stop you, 'cause we ain't stopping. - DJ Khaled
That's not what I meant. People submit and resubmit until they get it maxed out. Resubmit it again, and someone might notice that it slipped through the first time.
And there are, of course, coins that were missed the first time.
PVC good through stages. It is more visible in later stages.
Questionable color is the most variable designation of all because it is highly subjective. I know a dealer who submitted a bunch of ASEs, all usually toned from the crappy cardboard holder they were in. Some straight graded while some were QC. Very subjective
And "cleaned" can also be subjective based on series and degree of cleaning. A light dip may or may not get the designation. But this can also be different after a time when the coin starts to retone.
That's not true, especially with the body bags. BUT, no guarantee covers break outs. You voided the guarantee by breaking them out.
My bad, I wasn't looking at the label and I call them all FT by default, I was with NGC longer than I've been with PCGS.
Of the three the one that stands out (to me) is the cleaned dime. I'll be getting it back from ANACS next week and will take a 20th look at it with a jaundiced eye. If anything, it's time in my Dansco should have made any "cleaning" less of an issue. None of these coins cost more than $100 or so, but one of the reasons I buy slabbed coins is to avoid getting PVC damaged, cleaned coins with questionable color. I had an ANACS Morgan dollar that I cracked out in March come back as Altered Surface. Of the hundred or so coins I've submitted this year about 15 were crackout and ALL of my bodybags came from the crackouts - I obviously need to stop taking the grading companies opinion for granted and start seriously looking at them before cracking them out to cross them over.
While I've never tried to return a coin to PCGS (other than mechanical errors of the wrong coin in the slab variety) I've never had a successful claim with NGC so I don't even bother trying with them any more. After this snafu, I may take a day and review all my slabbed coins - but needing to do so kinda defeats the whole purpose of buying graded coins in the first place.
We should use FD to denote a fully struck date.
God bless all who believe in him. Do unto others what you expect to be done to you. Dubbed a "Committee Secret Agent" by @mr1931S on 7/23/24. Founding member of CU Anti-Troll League since 9/24/24.
Part of the problem submitting coins like the ones i've mentioned is that there is not real way to value them. I have over a dozen 1/1 top pop coins that if they were to be sent back under a grade guarantee would be impossible to value. Case in point I have a MS67 1956 Columbian 10 centavos coin. Lets say they misgraded it and it should have been a 65 or 66, or it had PVC. What are they going to do? NADA, cause there is no extablished value for that coin in any grade. Likely they will do what NGC did and reholder the coin with a lower grade and send it back to me with a "too bad, be happy with your properly graded coin.
There is the price you paid. That is your maximum loss. You can't claim a loss based on the alleged gain in value from the (mistaken) slab as it is not a real loss.
The price I paid is not what the grading companies use as their basis for valuing coins. It's their valuation. The point I am trying to make is that for most foreign coins, the "guarantee" is meaningless since the grading companies don't have any way to pay you the difference between a MS67 and a MS65 or a coin that never should have been in a holder in the first place.
As a word of advice to those who care about losing your original investment when crossing over from one grading company to another removing the coin from the holder is a really bad idea - and when a coin is valuable enough I don't do it, case in point I had a 1954 Brass 5 Centavos with dot that I wanted to cross, I crossed that in the slab. Had that been bodybagged it woudl have been a couple of hundred dollars that I didn't feel like taking a chance with. It graded a point lower, but that is what I expected and it's value didn't change much since PCGS only has a few graded. Personally, I don't understand how any of the 1954's (mine included) graded as MS, since I have only seen one that has any original luster on it. Rarity has its privileges I suppose.
Young Numismatist • My Toned Coins
Life is roadblocks. Don't let nothing stop you, 'cause we ain't stopping. - DJ Khaled
See what I mean?
Dates are often unevenly struck, especially mercs and rosies.
God bless all who believe in him. Do unto others what you expect to be done to you. Dubbed a "Committee Secret Agent" by @mr1931S on 7/23/24. Founding member of CU Anti-Troll League since 9/24/24.
The max loss on the downgrade is your cost. Period. It doesn't matter what the M67 value is unless it's lower than your cost. You don't have damages twisted to an imputed value.
Why would the grading company care about what I paid for a coin? They state in their guarantee, that they use market rates of their choosing to determine value.