Say something fast

brucemo

I just put a box with 120 '80 Topps baseball cards in it in my mailbox, along with a check for $632.50.

Total book value is so low I'm not even going to insure it.

Someone say something fast, before I chicken out and go get it.

bruce

carkim

120 possible PSA 10's for only $600.00

What a deal.

Keep us posted.

Did that help?

Carlos

brucemo

No, but it distracted me a little bit.

bruce

theBobs

You should insure for at least $632.50 to recoup your grading fee's should the return be lost.

brucemo

That's an interesting point. I'd considered instead that I was insuring replacement value before grading, rather than after.

It's kind of an odd thing. Let's say you send in a card you paid $100 for. You expect it to get an 8, which books for $300. What happens if the card gets 9, which books for $3000, but the card has sold recently at auction for $8000?

I think that if I give it a value of $300, PSA should give me $300 if they wreck the card before they grade it, but if it's lost after grading a 9, they are for sure no way going to give me $300 for it. The only question in my mind is whether I get $3000 or $8000.

bruce

theBobs

Bruce,

In the example of your post -- "I just put a box with 120 '80 Topps baseball cards in it in my mailbox, along with a check for $632.50" -- you would be very very very foolish to not insure for AT LEAST $632.50.

I will say that again: you would be very very very foolish to not insure for AT LEAST $632.50.

Regardless of grades, resale value, or the price of tea in China, if your package is lost returning from PSA you are without doubt to lose at least $632.50.

69topps8

The best approach is to buy enough insurance to cover whatever costs you've sunk into it. For outbound postage, you don't need to insure since you have nothing in the cards. For return shipment though, you should specify a $5 value per card to cover the grading fees.

I don't recommend speculating on higher grades when it comes to insurance. Otherwise you are speculating that the postal service will lose or damage your package. Being that it's sent registered mail, that would be a very poor bet.

Vargha

$600 of postal insurance is only $7. Better safe than $632 sorry.

coachh

I sure hope you went out, got the box and took it to the post office for insurance.

brucemo

This is rapidly turning into a thread about insurance, which is fine, I guess.

When I send real stuff to PSA, I send registered mail, insured. This is the way they suggest, and it's the best way to send stuff that has value.

Going to PSA, this stuff has essentially no value, so I didn't insure it for anything. I just stuck them in two priority mail boxes, glued and taped the boxes together, and dumped them in the mailbox. Risking $136 because the package is uninsured is not a big deal, and I'll also take the risk that they won't mind getting a package that is not strictly in accord with their specifications.

I wanted to get the stuff out today, in the hopes that the grades will be posted on the 31st or before.

The real question here is what you should put in the "declared value" section for each card. Book on commons is 25 cents. I declared them at a buck each, and the stars at Beckett. There were maybe $24 worth of stars in there.

If PSA destroys the whole box on the way in, they'll give me my $136 and my grading fee, and I think that I'm still into the rest of the cards for about $25, which is well under what I can get for them, if it comes to that. I think a buck per common is a fair pre-grading value.

The major question is what PSA will insure the box for on the way back, after they have graded the cards, and how much they will pay me if it goes lost. You would think, given that the amount you pay is based upon your declared value, that the amount of insurance that you get should be based upon declared value, but there are a few obvious questions here:

1) If I put down "1" or some other small number for declared value, which I have done *often* in the past, wouldn't it make sense that PSA should figure this out and realize that the customer has used Beckett value, rather than the value of the card graded? PSA has my phone number, and they can call me if it looks like I've mis-valued the cards. I'm sure that grading according to Beckett is very common, and if they really cared about this in the case of low-money stuff, they could catch it. I'm sure a heck of a lot of '86 Fleer Basketball (for example) comes in, and they must notice that some people declare it as $2 per card, and others declare it as $20 per card.

2) What about cases where the customer undergrades a card? I don't know if any of you have been in this position before, but sometimes you'll send a card in, and it will get a grade higher than you expect, and sometimes that can mean massive money. Here is an example. A '58 Topps Willie Mays is $850 in the April SMR, in PSA-8. It's $15,000 in PSA-9. If I send one in that I think is an 8, I would declare its value as $850, and if it gets a 9, does that mean that it will be under-insured by $14,000 on the way back? I don't think that PSA can operate like this.

I think that after the stuff has been graded, I can prove how much the stuff is "worth" for real, and I can make a strong argument that I should recover that value, and not the value I declared. At very minimum I can argue that my declared value was for the cards before they were graded, and they should add the grading fees to the total value, which is fine in this case, since that's all it would really take to make me "whole".

For those of you who might be thinking that I'm trying to save $1.20 extra it would have cost to insure these for Beckett + grading fee, I can assure you that I'm not *quite* that cheap. It simply never crossed my mind to insure my grading fee as well as the raw value of the cards.

bruce

jaxxr

I sent 40 1980 Topps BB cards ( one third of Brucemo's order),a week ago along with a check for $ 217.50. I did insure for $ 200, I feel if lost there will be no missing the $ 217.50 because the check wont get cashed, the cards raw commons mainly, as they are until they get graded, worth 5 bucks apiece ??? I wonder how the post office works upon a claim ? Even if I got them all from unopened packs they would not have cost more than a buck each, probably less. Will the postal people need reciepts, will they take the insurance value at face, do they need proof PSA never got them ?? Is postal insurance primarily for damage not loss ?? Anyone ever filed a claim ?

Bruce, perhaps we might trade-buy-sell some of our extra 9s and 10s we are bound to get.

theBobs

jaxxr
What did you insure for the return?

MickeyC

Here's my 2 cents worth...

I set up a Fed Ex account, and bill all my PSA shipments to that account.

1. It gets billed to my credit card, and I document outgoing tracking numbers to PSA, and inbound numbers from PSA to document the shipping costs, adding them to the grading and card costs.

2. It makes it soooooo much easier to track when PSA gets my cards.

3. No trips to the post office.

4. I can insure it going to and coming from PSA for any amount, very easily.

5. A 3-4 lb Fed Ex Box from the East Coast (NJ) to PSA usually runs $13-$15, depending on what I insure it for. Coming back from PSA, it runs $18 or so. True, I haven't sent many expensive cards to PSA (the highest declared value was around $4,000).

I find that Fed Ex is cheaper, more convienent, and as we know, more reliable than the Post Office.

For what it's worth...

Mark

jaxxr

PSA1965,

I declared value as $ 460.00, using $10.00 for the real commons and $ 15.00 for a few team cards. I believe you are supposed to use SMR 8 grade as your declared value even though you may feel they are all 9s or better. Of course SMR does not show common values for 1973 or later BB cards,so I actually estimated value I guess. Do you think I should have declared higher or somehow asked for/paid PSA more for return insurance as there really is a good likelyhood of at least a dozen or more 9s+ ?

Perhaps PSA as well as other graders feel that they ask you for a declared or estimated value and that is all they can insure it for. It is remotely possible in my case, or someone else more likely, to get back nearly half or more as 10's, that would make return insurance quite higher. How might PSA absorb the added cost ?

mikeschmidt

Mark:

If you read the fine print, my understanding is that Fed Ex will only insure sports collectibles for $500. You have to read the fine print -- but it is not readily apparent, and it is something that they changed within the past year or so.

brucemo

jaxxr asks a perfectly fine question, and I'll ask tomorrow if I remember to call during business hours.

It would be easy for them to handle it -- they can have a computer spit out the SMR of the stuff, and insure for that, or the declared value, whatever is higher. It's not like there is no buffer in their shipping charge, and to insure for like $1000 more is a buck.

I think that if something bad happens here, it probably goes to Charlie, and Charlie fixes it. I'd rather not have to *rely* on that though. It would be nice to know how to do this for real.

bruce

Vargha

Bruce -- I'm not going to hold back any longer. I'm just going to tell you the "way it is".
























PIKACHU MUST GO!!!!!!!!!!!!

skylaneflyer

Bruce,

If you were willing to throw $632.50 in grading fees at these cards, logic dictates that you believe the cards will be worth at least that upon their return. Upon making the determination that it was worth the $632.50 to have them graded, then wouldn't it follow that if the cards were lost enroute to PSA you would file a claim for the same?

And, more importantly, yes, I agree with David, the Pikachu must go.


Sky

hench1

While most would advise you to get postal insurance, I am currently embroiled in a boondoogle trying to get the UNITED STATES POSTAL SERVICE TO PAY A LEGITIMATE CLAIM, which they have thus far refused. I bought a raw T205 Wiltse Right Ear, a tough card, in very nice shape. I estimated a PSA 6 or at worst a 5. I get the card in and it is bent and messed up. I had a scan of the card before it was shipped and examined to compare distinguishing features and am positive its the same card. I turned in a claim on the postal insurance and they denied it, saying they didn't cause the damage (and they MOST CERTAINLY did!!!). Good luck

Vargha

Take the USPS to small claims court. Serve the postmaster of your local branch.

BigKidAtHeart

<< <i>If you read the fine print, my understanding is that Fed Ex will only insure sports collectibles for $500. You have to read the fine print -- but it is not readily apparent, and it is something that they changed within the past year or so. >>

Here is the link with the details for everyone that ships ANYTHING with FEDEX!

FedEx Liability Limits

be sure and read F - 11

brucemo

<< <i>If you were willing to throw $632.50 in grading fees at these cards, logic dictates that you believe the cards will be worth at least that upon their return. Upon making the determination that it was worth the $632.50 to have them graded, then wouldn't it follow that if the cards were lost enroute to PSA you would file a claim for the same?
>>


Logic doesn't always have much to do with it, since I'm kind of stupid sometimes. It was probably dumb to do this, which is fine. People do dumber things on new and used car lots all across the country each day.

Let's say for a moment that I'd sent cash instead of a check. There would be $632 and some cards worth approximately $136. If the package went missing, I'd feel that I was out $632 + $136, not $1264. Since I sent a check instead of cash, I didn't insure the check. If I had insured the package going in, I would have insured it for $136, under the assumption that I wouldn't lose the money behind the check.

bruce

MickeyC

<< <i>PSA1965,

I declared value as $ 460.00, using $10.00 for the real commons and $ 15.00 for a few team cards. I believe you are supposed to use SMR 8 grade as your declared value even though you may feel they are all 9s or better. Of course SMR does not show common values for 1973 or later BB cards,so I actually estimated value I guess. Do you think I should have declared higher or somehow asked for/paid PSA more for return insurance as there really is a good likelyhood of at least a dozen or more 9s+ ?

Perhaps PSA as well as other graders feel that they ask you for a declared or estimated value and that is all they can insure it for. It is remotely possible in my case, or someone else more likely, to get back nearly half or more as 10's, that would make return insurance quite higher. How might PSA absorb the added cost ? >>



Thank you for the info. Strange, they took the extra money for the insurance, but didn't make me aware of this. I'll be careful next time, keeping FED EX under $500.

Mark

brucemo

I just spoke to one of Charlie's minions, who confirmed that I don't know what I'm talking about.

Declare $136, you get $136. I still think that it is likely that you could weasel your way out of some cases by whining and begging, but that's not the core issue.

If you send in a big vintage card, expecting an 8, and you get a 9, unless you figure this out before they ship, they'll under-insure it, and ostensibly you are screwed if it goes lost.

I told Charlie's minion that I thought this was just asking for trouble, since they have this all computerized, and they can figure out that a card has acquired outrageous value due to an unanticipated grade step-up, but this argument made no progress.

In my opinion, this is a flaw in their operation.

bruce

jrinck

Perhaps PSA could institute an automatic bump up in insurance for under-insured cards (due to an underestimate of the grade), but how would they collect the extra money? When you send in your grading form you sign for a specific amount. They'd have to contact you to ask for a bump up in insurance amount, but that would only eat at their bottom-line and delay the whole process.

Maybe they could add a clause that you could sign that would authorize increases in the amount charged (if using a credit card) to address this issue. But again, the graders and the shipping department are most likely two widely seperate entities who have no reason to speak to each other, so the whole infrastructure would have to change.

It's probably not worth the return on investment.

crazysc

Ultimately, insurance is meant to insure against loss, not to profit from it. If someone bought a card expecting an 8, it's assumed that they paid "8" money for it. So, if the card were graded a 9, and it was lost, the "cost" on the item is still only in the "8" range.

I know I've had the discussion with FedEx & UPS where I've sold items for $100 and my cost has been $50, they claim they will only pay $50 and that's all I should insure it for. Of course, this is based on merchants who can readily replace product - i.e. jewelry, etc. Collectibles is trickier, because the items are often unique, and FedEx claims they will not insure an item if it is unique or cannot be replaced...

Vargha

FedEx claims they will not insure an item if it is unique or cannot be replaced


Personally, I only insure my easily-replaced everyday items. FedEx's policy is very sound.

Bailey

Insurance is so cheap when sending by registered mail, why not over insure everything? If I send in 100 $5 modern cards, I usually state the value as $50 each. The difference in return shipping costs for a $500 package and a $5000 package is minimal.

I agree that the FedEx insurance policy is sound

Bailey

brucemo

I think that PSA should insure the boxes for whatever, and self-insure beyond that. If a vintage card comes in raw and gets a 9 or 10, and it's out to be a very big card, they should insure it at their own cost, in order to cover their own behinds. In normal cases involving mid-dollar stuff, if they added an extra buck per package to cover more insurance, they could insure for like $1000 more, which would cover most cases.

This is just advice and not some sort of bitter tirade. If they want to do something else, no problem, or at least no problem that affects me yet.

I agree that insurance is supposed to make you whole, but once the grades are assigned, I think the "whole" calibration should be reset, since it is very clear that you have something worth $X at that point. You should be assured of remaining whole from there to your kitchen table.

PSA's point of view is that you can insure things for whatever you want, but given that things coming back are worth a different amount than they are going in, and that one of the *points* of grading is that the values coming back should be more accurate than they were before, PSA should come up with a better insurance strategy.

bruce