GTG: Ansei Koban

lermish

I don't see too many GTGs over here, I'm guessing because there so many idiosyncratic types it makes it tough. I'll give it a shot anyway. Results sometime tomorrow.

scubafuel

It has a nice original look and color. Maybe AU details? Or straight grade would be fine also. No idea how PCGS handles scratches on this type. Cool coin.

pruebas

Looks cleaned to me. XF Details?

lermish

Well, not a ton of GTG activity but it was worth trying.

Both @pruebas and @scubafuel were on the right track. My guess by the auction pics and holding it in hand was AU Cleaned; great obverse, a number of noticeable lines on the reverse. Judging by some of the other graded kobans I've seen the scratches didn't seem that serious.

UNC Scratch

breakdown

It's a very cool piece. What is the "scratch" that led to the details grade? The mark in the upper right corner of the reverse?

lermish

@breakdown said:
It's a very cool piece. What is the "scratch" that led to the details grade? The mark in the upper right corner of the reverse?

That's my thinking, along with bottom left of the reverse.

scubafuel

Thanks for the followup. I really like these types even though I know very little about them.
I’d like to add one at some point even though it wouldn’t fit in any sets. What are the smallest kobans called? I think they are also the most recent.

lermish

@scubafuel I'm barely beyond novice in my knowledge but I fell in love with kobans...hard. The man'en is the most recent (1860-67), least expensive (usually), and smallest at 3.33g. They are holdered in a regular size holder. Unless you are specifically looking for a smaller one, the Tempo (or Tenpo) is basically the same price, comes very nice, and is a bit bigger.

pruebas

The real big ones are called Ōban (the O is long so it has a line over it. You could also use “Ooban”.

“Ko” in Japanese means small. “Ō” is big.

lermish

@pruebas said:
The real big ones are called Ōban (the O is long so it has a line over it. You could also use “Ooban”.

“Ko” in Japanese means small. “Ō” is big.

To add on, the denomination for the Koban is 1 ryo. These larger Oban are 5 ryo and you will often see them referred to as Goryo as Go is Japanese for five.

1 ryo was a fair amount of money; Koban were primarily used for tax payments and wholesale transactions. Depending on era, 1 ryo was enough money to buy a man from 1-4 years worth of rice. This value of course can change drastically based on the current value of rice due to famine, drought, etc.

Oban were almost completely ceremonial. The primary unit of currency was monme. 1 ryo equaled 60 monme. 1 monme was 3.76g of silver. The exchange rate between gold and silver was fixed by this currency exchange rate. The Koban was a fiat currency, not bullion, which led to wide fluctuations in the weight and purity of the gold used in the Koban. This fixed exchange rate was taken advantage of by foreign traders who effected an easy arbitrage.

abbyme24

@lermish said:

@pruebas said:
The real big ones are called Ōban (the O is long so it has a line over it. You could also use “Ooban”.

“Ko” in Japanese means small. “Ō” is big.

To add on, the denomination for the Koban is 1 ryo. These larger Oban are 5 ryo and you will often see them referred to as Goryo as Go is Japanese for five.

1 ryo was a fair amount of money; Koban were primarily used for tax payments and wholesale transactions. Depending on era, 1 ryo was enough money to buy a man from 1-4 years worth of rice. This value of course can change drastically based on the current value of rice due to famine, drought, etc.

Oban were almost completely ceremonial. The primary unit of currency was monme. 1 ryo equaled 60 monme. 1 monme was 3.76g of silver. The exchange rate between gold and silver was fixed by this currency exchange rate. The Koban was a fiat currency, not bullion, which led to wide fluctuations in the weight and purity of the gold used in the Koban. This fixed exchange rate was taken advantage of by foreign traders who effected an easy arbitrage.

Beautiful coin! Although just a minor correction, all Koban were 1 Ryo with the exception of the Goryoban which was only minted during a brief part of the Tempo era.

abbyme24

Here’s a picture for comparison. This is a Tempo Goryoban next to a Tempo Koban (which is similar in size to your Ansei Koban).

lermish

@abbyme24 said:

Here’s a picture for comparison. This is a Tempo Goryoban next to a Tempo Koban (which is similar in size to your Ansei Koban).

Hi Abby - The Goryoban was not an Koban but an Oban. They are different denominations. The tempo koban above is worth 1 ryo. The Goryoban is worth 5 ryo.

In Japanese, Go means 5, Ryo is the denomination, Ban means size. Hence, 5 Ryo Size, or Goryoban.

Edit: Also, Oban were made for hundreds of years, not just in the Tempo era.

Keicho Oban, Genroku Oban, Kyoho Oban, Man’en Oban and Tenpo Oban

abbyme24

@lermish said:

@abbyme24 said:

Here’s a picture for comparison. This is a Tempo Goryoban next to a Tempo Koban (which is similar in size to your Ansei Koban).

Hi Abby - The Goryoban was not an Koban but an Oban. They are different denominations. The tempo koban above is worth 1 ryo. The Goryoban is worth 5 ryo.

In Japanese, Go means 5, Ryo is the denomination, Ban means size. Hence, 5 Ryo Size, or Goryoban.

Edit: Also, Oban were made for hundreds of years, not just in the Tempo era.

Keicho Oban, Genroku Oban, Kyoho Oban, Man’en Oban and Tenpo Oban

I think it’s a semantics thing and I may have misunderstood, but I thought in a previous post you said your Ansei Koban was worth 5 Ryo. But reading back you said Oban were 5 Ryo, although those were all 10 Ryo.

I’m aware Obans were minted throughout the entire edo period, I was stating that Goryobans specifically were only minted during a short period of the Tempo era.

Goryobans are considered Kobans, just a larger format (in the same way that Manen Koban are still Kobans even though they are tiny compared to the others). In Japan, dealers classify everything except the 10 Ryo Obans as Kobans. Only the true large format 10 Ryo bans are considered Obans.

abbyme24

Back to the topic of your coin, where did you get it? I assume since you bought it raw it was in Japan - Ginza Coins perhaps?

I go to Japan often for work and pick up coins while I’m there - that picture of the Tempo Goryoban and Koban were from my April trip (the Goryoban was tied PCGS top pop and currently on GC).

lermish

@abbyme24 said:
Back to the topic of your coin, where did you get it? I assume since you bought it raw it was in Japan - Ginza Coins perhaps?

I go to Japan often for work and pick up coins while I’m there - that picture of the Tempo Goryoban and Koban were from my April trip (the Goryoban was tied PCGS top pop and currently on GC).

I visited Ginza last November and bought a Kyoho Koban, which was my first and ignited my lust for Kobans. I'll be heading back again this fall but will be staying on the other side of Tokyo (and only in Tokyo 2.5 days). I will likely go to meet the folks at TNT but probably won't have time to go to Ginza again.

I bought the Ansei raw along with a Genroku and Hoei from a Japanese auction (but not Ginza).

@abbyme24 said:

@lermish said:

@abbyme24 said:

Here’s a picture for comparison. This is a Tempo Goryoban next to a Tempo Koban (which is similar in size to your Ansei Koban).

Hi Abby - The Goryoban was not an Koban but an Oban. They are different denominations. The tempo koban above is worth 1 ryo. The Goryoban is worth 5 ryo.

In Japanese, Go means 5, Ryo is the denomination, Ban means size. Hence, 5 Ryo Size, or Goryoban.

Edit: Also, Oban were made for hundreds of years, not just in the Tempo era.

Keicho Oban, Genroku Oban, Kyoho Oban, Man’en Oban and Tenpo Oban

I think it’s a semantics thing and I may have misunderstood, but I thought in a previous post you said your Ansei Koban was worth 5 Ryo. But reading back you said Oban were 5 Ryo, although those were all 10 Ryo.

I’m aware Obans were minted throughout the entire edo period, I was stating that Goryobans specifically were only minted during a short period of the Tempo era.

Goryobans are considered Kobans, just a larger format (in the same way that Manen Koban are still Kobans even though they are tiny compared to the others). In Japan, dealers classify everything except the 10 Ryo Obans as Kobans. Only the true large format 10 Ryo bans are considered Obans.

No worries.

abbyme24

Awesome! Do you mind sharing what auction? I have seen Ginza auctions and Retro auctions but I’m sure there are plenty I’m not familiar with.

My japanese isn’t good enough for me to attend an auction yet, but I have been ramping up my studies lately since my ultimate goal fluency wise is to be able to attend a Japanese auction without making really expensive mistakes 😅

Those Kobans look great. I think they are one of the most unique looking coins and I like the history behind them. Did you get the Kyoho graded? I have one in QC now, fingers crossed I get the grade today.

lermish

@abbyme24 said:
Awesome! Do you mind sharing what auction? I have seen Ginza auctions and Retro auctions but I’m sure there are plenty I’m not familiar with.

My japanese isn’t good enough for me to attend an auction yet, but I have been ramping up my studies lately since my ultimate goal fluency wise is to be able to attend a Japanese auction without making really expensive mistakes 😅

Those Kobans look great. I think they are one of the most unique looking coins and I like the history behind them. Did you get the Kyoho graded? I have one in QC now, fingers crossed I get the grade today.

I got these from Taisei. The English version of their website along with Google translate did a pretty good job of making me feel comfortable. My Japanese is non-existent.

The Kyoho was graded but there were some issues that are still being resolved. I'll send you a PM.