1822 B-3 quarter a mistake, a restrike,or something else.
Bustquarterhound
Posts: 127 ✭✭✭
The 1822 B-3 recently came up for sale on ebay. Which got me thinking there really wasn't a need for a third reverse die to fulfill the mintage of 60k plus pieces made in 1822. The B-1 did break down to cause a small cud at 12:00 on the reverse but, the 25/50 reverse on the B-2 did not fail so why change it. The mistake would be at the start of 1823 the 1822 obverse die was inadvertently used paired with the 1823 reverse. I'm not educated on the disposal of the old dies but, do know undestroyed dies have been used to create restrikes. I've been intrigued by the reverse dies of the capped bust large size quarters many years and this is just another unanswered question I run into. You're thoughts would be appreciated. Thanks Dave
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I'm not a bust quarter guy - but I'm a member of the John Reich Collectors Society and under the umbrella of doing something to give back to that community, I assisted with the compilation of the Bust Quarter Census, which will be published in the upcoming John Reich Journal. I can tell you that the JRCS still considers that an R8, and nobody in this 2024 census, nor in the 2020 one, reported owning an example of that coin.
Dr. Glenn Peterson authored the primary text of our census article, and he says: "...the great rarities are 1822 B-3 with still just one known and 1837 B-6 with just three known (to the best of my knowledge)." Glenn was a co-author of the book "Early Quarter Dollars of the United States Mint, 1796-1838," so I listen when he talks about quarters.
So, as you say "The 1822 B-3," I gather that's the one. Can you please provide links/images to satisfy my curiosity?
Heck, the Lusk 1822 B-2 in G6 went for $4,440 recently. I'd like to see the B-3!
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I’m not sure if this link will work but I’ll try:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/256545467064?itmmeta=01J0S7PFCXS22V0JPA6HKFJCRX&hash=item3bbb4d2ab8:g:5ekAAOSwRPBmM5Om&itmprp=enc:AQAJAAAAwI3B67cuEDWyUXXzqVTsbnEV986GqlsqyTie273wKHZ0a+DRxNZ79tnQsGKsIb7V81+342YA8lM6qub1pjDOz0Ea39eQtF9fpvW85K+ohzhTXp8O10j6QeEBEh2QPD/99WZZc9OKhdfQRK09aDI65Hc4ZDRw6vEpneTQiyt0ZQrOaWJoMF64uWtyXPp5iQ2La00j6uYVOB47dQ5hLidgsEI1AkzrootKB75Mrom0OyfsERDJRZRKkItGDegjF1S7Rg==|tkp:Bk9SR8L22aeGZA
@Bustquarterhound thanks for the heads up on this!
That worked Scubafuel thanks
Well, it's worth a good amount, but $70K seems to me to be a stretch. But it only takes one person who wants the coin more than the money.
An authorized PCGS dealer, and a contributor to the Red Book.
Why not just suppose that the reverse die you are calling the Reverse of 1823 was actually first installed in 1822, whenever the last 1822 production run was made using this obverse, and that the reverse was just naturally carried over into 1823? The pairing could have had a very short run time, or through bad luck a very poor survival rate, or both.
I think he's waiting for dumb & dumber to walk throught the door with a boat load of cash
Good luck
Mike
My Indians
Danco Set
I have a question for you quarter experts:
Wasn't the 1822 B3 reverse die also used on the 1824 B1 & 1828 B2 quarters?
Yes and on the 1823 and 1825 B1
But since this is the early die state of the reverse, why not just assume that it was used for a limited amount of normal production in 1822, with only one known survivor?
The question may not be answerable until a high grade specimen is found so that precise die states can be determined.
It is a ponderous piece @Bustquarterhound, and like you, I've been wondering about it ever since it popped up. Your mistake theory may have happened, and just as @CaptHenway mentions, it could have been VERY limited normal production in 1822.
It's flabbergasting to have this new variety come to light after so many years, and still only one example. So if it was a VERY limited production in 1822, maybe it could have been the last day of production for 1822? I suppose it could also have been a situation where coining began but quickly stopped due to an emergency at the mint of some kind, or maybe even an issue with the press and then the die combination wasn't paired again.
I liken this example to some of the unique bust dollar die combinations that have surfaced over time.
The discovery example is very low grade, but I'd like to see it (or another example) in hand one day.
1TwoBits
Anybody have a copy of Breen's Encyclopedia handy? Mine is buried.
Does it say anything about the deliveries of 1822 quarters? If so, please tell us what it says.
Steve Tompkins lists the reported mintage for 1822 quarters as follows:
Warrant# 879 02/01/1822 9,932 coins Warrant# 889 06/19/1822 25,576 coins
Warrant# 904 12/10/1822 20,000 coins Warrant# 905 12/20/1822 8,572 coins
Hope this helps.
Thank you. It does show that they were trying to get some Quarters out by the end of the year.
Perhaps they had an order for some quarters from a Depositor. Totally speculating here, but if you were trying to finish up an order and the reverse die you were using failed for whatever reason, wouldn't you just grab another reverse die out of the die safe, use it for as many strikes as you either needed or had planchets for, and then stick it back in the die safe to be used later, in this case in 1823?
No reason to suspect that the die pairing is a mistake, a restrike or anything underhanded.
In the manuscript for my book on the Cents of 1922 I can show you one 1922-D obverse die that was first paired with a fairly normal reverse, and then a well-worn reverse, and then with a new reverse. They were doing what they had to do to get a particular job done.
I’ll confess I know nothing about this subject, but all the posts were part of my learning experience. Threads like this are what makes these boards special.
“The thrill of the hunt never gets old”
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Copperindian
Retired sets: Soaring Eagles
Copperindian
That’s dang cool!
I have the same view as @CaptHenway that seems logical and likely.
I'm BACK!!! Used to be Billet7 on the old forum.
Thanks for the feedback. I read somewhere a long time back that a ralative (son I think) of a mint official who had access to retired dies used some of them to create rarities. Not saying this could be one but, the 1823 has always been rare. This is total speculation but, I think it is a possibility. Thanks. Dave
You may be thinking of Theodore Eckfeldt,, of the Eckfeldt Family which had important positions and connections with the Mint from the 1790's to the earliest 20th Century. He is suspected to be the "Midnight Minter" who made 1804 Dollars and other rarities in the late 1850's. I doubt that he was even born in 1822, but I do not have his birth and death dates.
It is fun to speculate, but Occam's Razor tells us that the simplest explanation for something is usually the correct one.
When I worked in Coin World's Collectors Clearinghouse back in the mid-70's my boss showed me a pair of cents from two consecutive years somewhere in the late 1960's - early 1970's range that were struck from the same reverse die. They just left it in the press when they changed the obverse to the new year. Simple economy.