MLB to add Negro League statistics to the official record.
craig44
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This means we now have a new all time and single season BA record holder. Josh Gibson with both. .372 lifetime and .466 single season.
what are your thoughts? I think it is a bit silly. The Negro Leagues were not a major league. Gibson is now the "official" lifetime BA leader with a grand total of 2,168 at bats. his single season "record" was compiled in 249 at bats. Gibson is also now considered both the single season and career SLG. % leader with .718 and .974 respectively.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
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When I read this I thought. Haha. Ty Cobb. Poetic.
It’s going to be tough getting people to accept these stats. I think it will be fun though and gives us all more to consider. Will it all be right, and make sense? Nope.
Almost hard to believe. As mentioned, it was two different leagues.
I would have to think that even fans of the Negro Leagues won't like this.
Sure are gonna be a lot of asterisks in the MLB records. At least there should be with this silly idea.
It is like any other statistic influenced by era etc...when context is added it isn't too hard to navigate through. Like the Gibson single season batting average example. Once someone sees it is only 249 at bats it doesn't mean the same anymore.
there should be a lot of asterisks added. the Negro League was not comparable to the MLB. The top line stars were certainly MLB quality and most likely would have been stars in the MLB, but the depth was sorely lacking. Meaning, the worst players in MLB were significantly better than the worst players in NL.
it isnt their fault the N.L. was far less deep quality wise, it was a numbers game. back then, population wise, there were 7 white people for every 1 black person. that would mean for the average player to be on MLB level, there would have only been enough quality players to field 2 teams. the NL stretched the players out to, I think, 8 teams. there was just no way league quality could be that good with those numbers.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
It does look silly seeing those leaders on the top with such few plate appearances per season, but in reality Hugh Duffy's .4359 average in the National League in 1894 looks just as silly when comparing it to someone from 2011.
is the next thing coming down the line going to be to add Japanese statistics to the MLB record? Cuban stats? Mexican league?
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
Would you be surprised after navigating that Caitlin Clark thread?
I think most statisticians drew a line at around 1901 or so for the official "record" That is why Hornsby had the official single season record until about 5 minutes ago.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
check out the new single season and career SLG "records"
step aside Babe and Barry!!!
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
That’s going to be a tough one. When you consider what stadiums the games were played in.
I would always add the caveat of a minimum amount of plate appearances so those would just be brushed aside anyway.
So when Brett was chasing .400 he had to have a minimum 502 plate appearances to qualify for the batting title.
So does that stay the same for mlb?
I've never had any interest in the Negro Leagues. But I would have to believe that the record keeping was probably lax.
Also the score keeping was probably lax as well. Likely if not definitely, a number of errors being ruled as hits, etc.
I believe they are using the same 3.1 PA/game figure that MLB uses for records. its just that the Negro Leagues only played about 60 games a season. and even that varied.
it is a cluster. the new single season BA leader has 136 PA. the 2nd place in BA had 302 PA.
good grief.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
Woke isn't about common sense. It's about shoving an ideology down our throats.
It always puzzles me how people use the lack of black players pre-Jackie to downplay the accomplishments of pre-war players like Ruth, only to lionize Negro League Players who were playing in a league that didn’t include 85% of the population. Seems pretty inconsistent.
I would assume so. the 502 PA's came to be because they were figuring 3.1 PA/scheduled game to qualify. 3.1 PA/game times 162 games is how they got to 502. I think they are doing the same for the Negro Leagues. they just played so few official games that now we have single season records with 300 PA's...
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
That inconsistency would depend on whether it’s the same person, right?
MLB did create this mess and now we’re left trying to sort out the ruin of the ever-changing landscape of baseball lore.
Where the stats sit doesn’t actually take any of the joy of baseball away from me. It doesn’t even bother me a little.
I’m going to see a doctor.
MLB just continues to ruin their brand in so many ways
I'm all for Negro League players getting the respect they deserve but most of those guys wouldn't have made a major league roster
It would be like the best MLB players going to triple A and accumulating their stats to the books
That’s probably accurate regarding the MiLB as you say.
But if we said that no MiLB players can play in MLB for 30 years. Then after we realize our (MLBs) own stupidity and integrate those players we decide 70 years later that we need to do something to pay for our sins.
It’s like Toqueville said. The biggest threat to democracy is majority rule.
Like many have posted, I do not understand the need to mix statistics from two different, distinct leagues. Would we insert old USFL stats into the NFL record book? No, of course not.
Josh Gibson just became the single season slugging and ops leader for a season in which he played 39 games.
39 games...
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
height of absurdity
this dying sport needs to be put out of its misery
you'll never be able to outrun a bad diet
Thanks Craig!
MLB to us is entertainment. But to the owners, first and foremost of course it's a business. Whenever analyzing something a business does, particularly if it's puzzling, I always try to look first at the money aspect as to why they are doing it.
I can't fathom a single reason how this will put more money in the MLB owner's pockets? And I also can't fathom how this will make MLB more entertaining for the fans, including black fans?
Frankly a common saying these days with business is "Go woke go broke." Although this isn't nearly as bad as the severe money losing woke moves some companies out there have made these past few years. Nevertheless, it does seem to be an unforced error.
I was think that when I heard this on the radio this morning.
Ichiro would be the "new" hit king!
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
I was checking out some stats. Willie Mays had a pretty good day today. He added 10 hits to his total, 6 runs, 6 rbi, 2 doubles, 1 triples.
all in one day!!! pretty good for a 93 year old. of course his career batting average did go down by one point...
this is all so silly
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
could we have a new Home Run king? Hank Aaron played 3 months for the Indianapolis clowns during the 52 season. He hit at least 5 home runs. That would put him at 760, only 2 behind Bonds.
But...the wrong research team uncovered those box scores so they dont count. for now.
John Thorne, MLB's historian, has said that only about 75% of Negro League box scores have been verified and counted though. So it is possible for a dead man to hit enough home runs to become the new home run king.
so, not only are we counting statistics from an inferior league. we are counting stats from said league after the greatest players from that league had left to play in the majors and the quality was even more inferior.
oh boy...
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
Robert Keyes is the new single season ERA leader with a 0.643 ERA in 1944 in 28 innings pitched.
I’m confused, Hank Aaron already is the home run king for humans.
For hybrid/ mutants bonds is king but that’s a separate list.
Check out Turkey Stearnes "official" stats.
3837 career at bats, 5 career strikeouts.
are we supposed to act like these are accurate, real statistics?
its a joke
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
good grief.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
Oscar Charleston struck out 13 times in 3153 at bats.
Josh Gibson struck out 11 times in over 2200 at bats.
yup, these numbers are totally accurate and legit...
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
Those really do highlight that either the numbers are iffy or the talent on the mound was not very good overall.
Let’s put it this way. If sasquatches played in mlb baseball would you really want the Bigfoot and human records together? Not exactly fair to the human species when they’re competing against 9 foot tall 600 lb. creatures. Same thing with bonds, when he changed his dna to something not completely human he no longer qualifies for these mlb records unless there is a separate mutant human category.
This may be the first time in CU Sports Talk history, that we are all in agreement on something.
But the thread is still early. Somebody with a 1 post count might still come on here and call us dirty names. 😆
Will MLB records now be included in the Negro League stats.
Lafayette Grading Set
I have no problem with Negro League players being in the HOF, but MLB records happen in the MLB no matter how much MLB is trying to rewrite history.
If were going to include records from other leagues why doesnt the minors count? Or Japan/Mexico/Australia, or winter leagues, or even college now that college players get paid?
Between the HOF ignoring a generation of players besides Ortiz and MLB now saying numbers from a different league are their official records MLB has a massive problem of trying to rewrite history.
Wisconsin 2-6 against the SEC since 2007
Seems to me the sticky situation was created when racism forced a separate league. Who's going to defend segregation?
The substantial truth doctrine is an important defense in defamation law that allows individuals to avoid liability if the gist of their statement was true.
I expect they will create new thresholds to again establish a standard for the records. As to the position in the statistical lists the positioning shouldn’t matter.
I think it’s more silly than not what they’re doing here but in fairness to the other leagues suggested in the slippery slope argument; they weren’t victims of pervasive, systematic, exclusion.
You would think the world is on fire though about this. Not even referring to the discussion here which is tame by comparison.
The group of people who made this decision should be on record, no? Names please.
The fact that black baseball players were the victims of outrageous, pervasive racism has nothing whatsoever to do with the wisdom of this merging of statistics.
If MLB is going to be the 'world champions' then I imagine all the other league stats come into play for ad sales. NWO wouldn't surprise me for sports/stats. Little league WS comes to mind. I don't like it but...big picture is in play now everywhere.
Oh hey, on espn or mlb or whatever, so and so that played in the Cuban league forever is playing for the Yankees, in line to break a record for most hits only needing 1 after spending a week in the MLB. Tune in and see history....every week. You want a Bud Light ad on this game....that's an extra 3-fiddy.
And here's the FIFA rub, expect the same.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_footballers_with_500_or_more_goals
I think I understand what you’re trying to say. I just don’t think that says it. I also don’t disagree with the sentiment but I think racism is the issue at the center of the decision, wise or not.
My comment was only on the comparisons validity.
I’m still unconvinced this is an issue. Perhaps being naive.
I meant. Perhaps I’m being naive. But my phone auto korrekted it and I whacked submit too fast.
@bgr said:
The first Japanese player in MLB was 1964. There was no chance that a Japanese player was getting signed for a long time after Pearl Harbor happened. All the other older leagues faced exclusion in the past whether it was their leagues putting punishments on players that try to go to MLB (which Japan still does to this day) or other reasons. No one is arguing for exclusion but the fact is that those stats happened in another league.
If those stats are the new records than the other leagues should count as well. MLB records should be MLB records and the other league records should be their records.
Wisconsin 2-6 against the SEC since 2007