some casual Chinese "pattern" bidding on eBay Germany
realeswatcher
Posts: 409 ✭✭✭
In a vacuum, you could almost sell this know-nothing (about these) on the Fengtien having a chance, but...
Interesting that several 4-digit FB bidders bit hard. Kein Versand nach USA!
https://www.ebay.com/itm/186429487055
https://www.ebay.com/itm/186428497358
2
Comments
Hmmm….
https://coinweek.com/macau-exhibit-beh-coin-dies/
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
I have no idea what looks authentic or not about those, is it possible they're restrikes from those dies?
I’m sure they’re good. Actually, very good! The coins were made in Germany, so it’s not surprising to see them surface there. And the die for the Sungarei 2 Mace is easily visible in the pics. The 4 Mace die may also be in there, but you would have to enlarge it to see it.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
I wonder if the results were surprising to the seller
Thanks for posting that informative writeup, @MrEureka . Germany is indeed where such pieces "would" surface out of, but yes, "hmmmm" on several levels.
In reviewing the German museum collection online, neither of these two eBay pieces match the respective dies/matrices that are present.
For the Fengtien piece... from the Künker auction description for the dies and reviewing the museum collection, both Fengtien dragon-side 10 cents dies/matrices included bear the "TENG-TIEN" spelling. The eBay piece reads "FENG-TIEN". Note that the struck coin Künker sold has the "TENG-TIEN" spelling.
Here's the Fengtien 10c example sold by Künker, which I assume is one of the (9) actual patterns the article notes they sold (incorrectly attributed as 5 cents - it's 10 cents). It bears the "TENG-TIEN" like the dies in the collection:
https://www.kuenker.de/de/archiv/stueck/219284
For further comparison, here are examples with the "FENG-TIEN" spelling - one sold by Baldwin's in 2008, plus the PCGS info page showing a few more:
https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=496348
https://www.pcgs.com/valueview/fengtien/nd-1897-p10c-lm-470-brass/4252?sn=514901&h=pop
As far as the "Sungarei" (Sinkiang) piece goes... As @MrEureka notes, the 2012 Künker inventory for the dies does include one for the 4 Mace, and here it is (a positive matrix) in the museum collection the article mentions. However, it is also not a die match to the eBay piece - there are easily seen differences (e.g., the thingy below the dragon's beard has 8 squiggles on the eBay piece as opposed to 7):
https://www.kenom.de/objekt/record_DE-MUS-805518_kenom_183729/1/-/
Gun to my head, concerning the eBay pieces, the Fengtien piece looks good (the surfaces in general... and that environmental effect on the brass looks honest)... the Sungarei not so much? Sensibly, of course, they're either both fake or both genuine... and of course this involves Chinese material so frankly, the burden of proof is higher.
Pretty high price even if they are genuine. This coin sold in China PCGS sp62 for 115000 RMB about 15972 USD. The buyer is taking lots of risk but if they are genuine it might be rewarding.
This sold in sb 2017.
This is another one sold by sb
This was sold at the high of the market in 2022,