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U.S. Representative Introduces Bill to End Federal Taxation on Gold and Silver

derrybderryb Posts: 36,326 ✭✭✭✭✭

Monetary Metals Tax Neutrality Act

". . . would clarify that the sale or exchange of precious metals bullion and coins are not to be included in capital gains, losses, or any other type of federal income calculation. Gold and silver would be treated as a non-entity for tax purposes, putting it on par with the U.S. dollar."

Federal Reserve and Treasury Dept. will put a stop to this nonsense.

The things I don’t always agree with are always worth considering.

Comments

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    jmski52jmski52 Posts: 22,471 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited May 11, 2024 2:31PM

    My first reaction to this bill is that it'll never make it out of committee.

    So here's my question - how many people on this forum would actively write to their elected representatives in support of this bill?

    I intend to start composing a letter in support. Give me your best reasons why this bill should be taken to the House floor for a vote. I'll take the first steps..........

    Q: Are You Printing Money? Bernanke: Not Literally

    I knew it would happen.
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    blitzdudeblitzdude Posts: 5,535 ✭✭✭✭✭

    No bullion taxes in The Commonwealth. God bless The Commonwealth. RGDS!

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    CrustyCrusty Posts: 1,084 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Gold and silver are real money. It is in our constitution! The government should not be allowed to tax money.

    The government has grown so damn big and powerful that it does whatever it wants. I have had my fill of government and I’m ready to barf it up.

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    Clackamas1Clackamas1 Posts: 800 ✭✭✭✭✭

    It will go no where. The swamp is not going to give up a revenue stream.

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    MsMorrisineMsMorrisine Posts: 32,409 ✭✭✭✭✭

    i thought the tik tok ban would go nowhere, but here we are.

    gold and silver on par with the us dollar tax wise?

    i don't think it'll get far at all either, but can we get together and come up with some reason as why it is a just idea? i'm thinking

    i'd feel more comfortable saying gold and silver are money if 1 toz of silver wasn't marked as a dollar, and when the mint gets to 1 toz gold it's $50 until it' a "version of Liberty" issue, then it's $100.

    anyone out there? I will not give you $50 for your proof 1 toz AGE... i'll double it and offer you $100. gold is money right? even the classic $20's aren't 20 anymore

    Current maintainer of Stone's Master List of Favorite Websites // My BST transactions
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    jmski52jmski52 Posts: 22,471 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited May 12, 2024 6:04AM

    can we get together and come up with some reason as why it is a just idea?

    Exactly.

    I think that removing the cap gains tax on gold & silver is a great 1st step in creating awareness, and I can think of many more great reasons to start raising awareness in Congress.

    For instance, as the bill itself states - gold & silver are specified in the US Constitution as money. There was, and is a reason for this - they had already experienced what happened to the Continental Dollar when it lost value because of no real backing. We are getting to that same point. Experience is a great teacher.

    For instance, having a physical backing for money automatically puts constraints on spending and forces fiscal responsibility onto the decision makers.

    Gold and silver are real money. It is in our constitution!

    I could eventually see this as being a test case to re-implement the Constitution as the "supreme law of the land" - as opposed to what we now have. Gotta start somewhere. I'm retired. I don't have a problem spending some time & effort on this.

    Yes, I know that more than one Special Interest Group will find ways to sabotage a bill like this. The corruption is pretty pervasive in Congress and in DC. So what? Awareness is going to happen when the currency and bond markets crash. The idea is to get more people prepared (in advance) for the inevitable aftermath - on a state by state basis.

    Several states are already enacting tax laws favorable to silver & gold, in addition to creating state depositories for gold & silver because they want to start protecting their state's citizens and to make their economies more resilient. Catherine Austin Fitts speaks about this type of financial sustainability. google her. And she's not the only one.

    Give me some more reasons. I have a bunch of reasons already. Give me more reasons.

    Q: Are You Printing Money? Bernanke: Not Literally

    I knew it would happen.
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    cohodkcohodk Posts: 18,720 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Excuses are tools of the ignorant

    Knowledge is the enemy of fear

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    jmski52jmski52 Posts: 22,471 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Is that your contribution to the discussion, coho?

    Q: Are You Printing Money? Bernanke: Not Literally

    I knew it would happen.
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    cohodkcohodk Posts: 18,720 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @jmski52 said:
    Is that your contribution to the discussion, coho?

    Yes. You asked for ideas and im telling you this proposal would open up a can of worms that you haven't even thought of, would diminish the intent of this law,,and leave proponents with a greater sense of disgust and contempt.

    The law of unintended consequences would be in full effect.

    Excuses are tools of the ignorant

    Knowledge is the enemy of fear

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    jmski52jmski52 Posts: 22,471 ✭✭✭✭✭

    im telling you this proposal would open up a can of worms that you haven't even thought of, would diminish the intent of this law,,and leave proponents with a greater sense of disgust and contempt.

    We already see in wide screen technicolor how Congress works. So, which side would YOU be on, coho?

    Q: Are You Printing Money? Bernanke: Not Literally

    I knew it would happen.
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    cohodkcohodk Posts: 18,720 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @jmski52 said:
    im telling you this proposal would open up a can of worms that you haven't even thought of, would diminish the intent of this law,,and leave proponents with a greater sense of disgust and contempt.

    We already see in wide screen technicolor how Congress works. So, which side would YOU be on, coho?

    How many sides are there? You intimate there are only two. But I'll give a straight and honest answer....I'm on MY side. Can you say the same?

    Excuses are tools of the ignorant

    Knowledge is the enemy of fear

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    HigashiyamaHigashiyama Posts: 2,171 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited May 12, 2024 2:42PM

    My primary argument in favor of this bill is the same argument that would require indexing of capital gains in our income tax. As I'm sure many on this board agree, the capital gains tax, to the extent that it taxes phantom gains from inflation, is really a wealth tax, not an income tax. If we as a country want to tax wealth, go ahead and propose that. But, don't hide a wealth tax within an income tax. I think the situation of gold makes this particularly apparent; if I buy gold at 2300 and sell it at 4600 after prices have doubled, my money (my gold!) maintained its value, but I made no gain. It seems close to a no brainer that I should not incur a tax.

    Higashiyama
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    RobMRobM Posts: 544 ✭✭✭

    I agree. Precious metals are not seen as productive investment by Government, at least not in the US. And no breaks are given to fairly adjust capital gains for inflation, like on India where they have a cost inflation index used to calculate gains. But with such harsh treatment of gold in the US wrt taxation, compared to, say, stocks, I'd bet the compliance rate for privately owned metals is currently much lower than might be expected.

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    cohodkcohodk Posts: 18,720 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited May 12, 2024 9:14AM

    @Higashiyama said:
    My primary argument in favor of this bill is the same argument that would require indexing of capital gains in our income tax. As I'm sure many on this board agree, the capital gains tax, to the extent that it taxes phantom gains from inflation, is really a wealth tax, not an income tax. If we as a country want to tax wealth, go ahead and propose that. But, don't hide a wealth tax within an income tax. I think the situation of gold makes this particularly apparent; if I buy gold at 2300 and sell it at 4600 after prices have doubled, my money (my gold!) maintained its value, but I made to gain. It seems close to a no brainer that I should not incur a tax.

    Does this flow onto equities, bonds, real estate, derivatives, coins, art, old cars, antiques, etc? Are those values not in part a product of inflation?

    So let's not tax anything. Right? End all tax, end all Govt. Paradise?

    Excuses are tools of the ignorant

    Knowledge is the enemy of fear

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    blitzdudeblitzdude Posts: 5,535 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Yup no more taxes on me SLV. RGDS!

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    cohodkcohodk Posts: 18,720 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Who owns assets? The wealthy. You guys already vilify the wealthy, now you'd give them more. Widen the wealth gap. Yeah, let's do it!!

    No consequences there. Lol

    Excuses are tools of the ignorant

    Knowledge is the enemy of fear

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    HigashiyamaHigashiyama Posts: 2,171 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @cohodk asked: “Does this flow onto equities, bonds, real estate, derivatives, coins, art, old cars, antiques, etc? Are those values not in part a product of inflation?”

    Yes, absolutely, I think an income tax should tax income.

    Higashiyama
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    HigashiyamaHigashiyama Posts: 2,171 ✭✭✭✭✭

    PS: though I would probably apply it only to long term capital gains. Short term capital gains look a lot like income.

    Higashiyama
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    derrybderryb Posts: 36,326 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @blitzdude said:
    No bullion taxes in The Commonwealth. God bless The Commonwealth. RGDS!

    The thread is about federal taxes.

    The things I don’t always agree with are always worth considering.

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    jmski52jmski52 Posts: 22,471 ✭✭✭✭✭

    If we as a country want to tax wealth, go ahead and propose that. But, don't hide a wealth tax within an income tax. I think the situation of gold makes this particularly apparent; if I buy gold at 2300 and sell it at 4600 after prices have doubled, my money (my gold!) maintained its value, but I made to gain. It seems close to a no brainer that I should not incur a tax.

    If we as a country followed the Constitution and did not engage in the printing un-backed phantom money to fund wars, political kickback schemes and to pay banker bonuses in failed banks (as in 2008), there would be no need for the sleight-of-hand wealth tax inside an income tax - because the voting public would likely reject direct taxation for such ill-conceived expenditures.

    I would hope that you are aware that Congress took specific budget items dark as a matter of "national security" a couple of years ago when prof. Mark Skidmore and Catherine Austin Fitts documented a missing $21 trillion or so from the budgets between 2012 and 2018. And that was before covid or the massive deficit spending that's taken place since.

    “Does this flow onto equities, bonds, real estate, derivatives, coins, art, old cars, antiques, etc? Are those values not in part a product of inflation?”

    No. Why would it? None of those are specified as legal tender in the US Constitution. Neither was a Federal income Tax ever conceived by the Framers, but that's a separate matter.

    let's not tax anything. Right? End all tax, end all Govt. Paradise?

    Nothing seems to stop the Fed's printing press whenever they "need". Isn't that a banker's paradise already?

    Q: Are You Printing Money? Bernanke: Not Literally

    I knew it would happen.
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    cohodkcohodk Posts: 18,720 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Interesting opposing comments from Higashiyama and jmski.

    And the can of worms is opened.

    Excuses are tools of the ignorant

    Knowledge is the enemy of fear

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    cohodkcohodk Posts: 18,720 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @jmski52 said:

    I would hope that you are aware that Congress took specific budget items dark as a matter of "national security" a couple of years ago when prof. Mark Skidmore and Catherine Austin Fitts documented a missing $21 trillion or so from the budgets between 2012 and 2018. And that was before covid or the massive deficit spending that's taken place since.

    I would hope that someone with vast experience and an MBA would understand why those "findings" have never been duplicated.

    Excuses are tools of the ignorant

    Knowledge is the enemy of fear

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    MsMorrisineMsMorrisine Posts: 32,409 ✭✭✭✭✭

    just stumbled across this. any relevance?

    https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/31/5154

    A State or a territory or possession of the United States may tax United States coins and currency (including Federal reserve notes and circulating notes of Federal reserve banks and national banks) as money on hand or on deposit in the same way and at the same rate that the State, territory, or possession taxes other forms of money. This section does not affect a law taxing national banks.

    Current maintainer of Stone's Master List of Favorite Websites // My BST transactions
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    cohodkcohodk Posts: 18,720 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited May 13, 2024 4:38AM

    @MsMorrisine said:
    just stumbled across this. any relevance?

    https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/31/5154

    A State or a territory or possession of the United States may tax United States coins and currency (including Federal reserve notes and circulating notes of Federal reserve banks and national banks) as money on hand or on deposit in the same way and at the same rate that the State, territory, or possession taxes other forms of money. This section does not affect a law taxing national banks.

    Further digging....

    https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/31/5103

    United States coins and currency (including Federal reserve notes and circulating notes of Federal reserve banks and national banks) are legal tender for all debts, public charges, taxes, and dues. Foreign gold or silver coins are not legal tender for debts

    So it would seem that the inscriptions on the metal are what make it legal tender (money) not the metal itself.

    Excuses are tools of the ignorant

    Knowledge is the enemy of fear

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    jmski52jmski52 Posts: 22,471 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I would hope that someone with vast experience and an MBA would understand why those "findings" have never been duplicated.

    It’s not hard to understand that the “official” media is not doing their job - and hasn’t been doing their job for more than a couple of decades now. The only investigative journalism that exists in our country is being done by independent citizen journalists. Don’t you realize that much?

    The parts of the budget related to those findings was taken “dark” by Congress during covid as a matter of national security. Why? What changed - all of a sudden? What’s the big problem with transparency?

    Not to belabor the point, but I’m sure that copies of the budget info from those years was saved by the researchers and could be provided upon request. The even bigger problem is with the years since then.

    US Tax Code being what it is, it does not supersede the Constitution. If lawmakers were doing their job, they would propose Amendments to change the Constitution to allow fiat currency AND a central bank.

    But they never do that because it would raise too much awareness. Creation of the Federal Reserve, or even slipping an onerous tax law into USC (usually in a huge omnibus spending bill) is much easier.

    Corruption is what it is. Many of our “elected” presidents, senators and representatives typically don’t honor the oaths that they took to uphold the supreme law of the land when they were sworn in. It’s pretty simple to see. If you don’t follow what the Constitution says (in fairly plain language), you are committing a crime. Right?

    Tell me that you at least understand the basics.

    Q: Are You Printing Money? Bernanke: Not Literally

    I knew it would happen.
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    johnny9434johnny9434 Posts: 27,648 ✭✭✭✭✭

    states and will find a way to get around it (ct anyways)

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    cohodkcohodk Posts: 18,720 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @jmski52 said:
    I would hope that someone with vast experience and an MBA would understand why those "findings" have never been duplicated.

    It’s not hard to understand that the “official” media is not doing their job - and hasn’t been doing their job for more than a couple of decades now. The only investigative journalism that exists in our country is being done by independent citizen journalists. Don’t you realize that much?

    The parts of the budget related to those findings was taken “dark” by Congress during covid as a matter of national security. Why? What changed - all of a sudden? What’s the big problem with transparency?

    Not to belabor the point, but I’m sure that copies of the budget info from those years was saved by the researchers and could be provided upon request. The even bigger problem is with the years since then.

    US Tax Code being what it is, it does not supersede the Constitution. If lawmakers were doing their job, they would propose Amendments to change the Constitution to allow fiat currency AND a central bank.

    But they never do that because it would raise too much awareness. Creation of the Federal Reserve, or even slipping an onerous tax law into USC (usually in a huge omnibus spending bill) is much easier.

    Corruption is what it is. Many of our “elected” presidents, senators and representatives typically don’t honor the oaths that they took to uphold the supreme law of the land when they were sworn in. It’s pretty simple to see. If you don’t follow what the Constitution says (in fairly plain language), you are committing a crime. Right?

    Tell me that you at least understand the basics.

    I understand the BS of the findings.

    What's your opinion of the links MsMorrisine and I added to the thread?

    Excuses are tools of the ignorant

    Knowledge is the enemy of fear

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    jmski52jmski52 Posts: 22,471 ✭✭✭✭✭

    What's your opinion of the links MsMorrisine and I added to the thread?

    My opinion is that the US Code is what it is.

    Q: Are You Printing Money? Bernanke: Not Literally

    I knew it would happen.
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    cohodkcohodk Posts: 18,720 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @jmski52 said:
    What's your opinion of the links MsMorrisine and I added to the thread?

    My opinion is that the US Code is what it is.

    So gold is not legal tender. Gotcha.

    Excuses are tools of the ignorant

    Knowledge is the enemy of fear

  • Options
    jmski52jmski52 Posts: 22,471 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Is “gotcha” all you can come up with?

    Read the Constitution. As I already stated, the US Code doesn’t supersede the Constitution, unless it’s amended.

    Do bankers and financiers think otherwise? Sounds like it.

    Q: Are You Printing Money? Bernanke: Not Literally

    I knew it would happen.
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    TwoSides2aCoinTwoSides2aCoin Posts: 43,939 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Easy fix. Vote for Self Governance. Then throw all the bums out.

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    pmbugpmbug Posts: 84 ✭✭

    I'm glad to see that my Congress critter is a co-sponsor to the Monetary Metals Tax Neutrality Act. The Sound Money Defense League has been doing good work getting State Legislatures to pass similar bills at the State level. It would be great if this bill passed at the Federal level.

    Yelling at clouds on pmbug.com

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    cohodkcohodk Posts: 18,720 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @jmski52 said:
    Is “gotcha” all you can come up with?

    Read the Constitution. As I already stated, the US Code doesn’t supersede the Constitution, unless it’s amended.

    Do bankers and financiers think otherwise? Sounds like it.

    Yeah. Gotcha. As in I understand you believe gold is not legal tender.

    Did the framers intend that grandma's sterling tea pot is money? It is silver after all. How abou Uncle Bill's gold tooth?

    Excuses are tools of the ignorant

    Knowledge is the enemy of fear

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    jmski52jmski52 Posts: 22,471 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I understand you believe gold is not legal tender.

    Did the framers intend that grandma's sterling tea pot is money? It is silver after all. How abou Uncle Bill's gold tooth?

    The Constitution says nothing about gold or Uncle Bill being money. Read it, and learn something.

    Why do you persist in twisting what I've clearly stated? To derail the thread?

    Q: Are You Printing Money? Bernanke: Not Literally

    I knew it would happen.
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    alexercaalexerca Posts: 249 ✭✭✭

    @jmski52 said:
    My first reaction to this bill is that it'll never make it out of committee.

    So here's my question - how many people on this forum would actively write to their elected representatives in support of this bill?

    I intend to start composing a letter in support. Give me your best reasons why this bill should be taken to the House floor for a vote. I'll take the first steps..........

    When you get the letter done send me a text so I can copy it and I'll definitely send it to my representatives!

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    jmski52jmski52 Posts: 22,471 ✭✭✭✭✭

    When you get the letter done send me a text so I can copy it and I'll definitely send it to my representatives!

    Will do! I'm taking my time with the text, and gathering the most salient points from discussions like this. The naysayers are providing me with some interesting counterpoints as well. Thanks for your interest.

    Q: Are You Printing Money? Bernanke: Not Literally

    I knew it would happen.
  • Options
    cohodkcohodk Posts: 18,720 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @jmski52 said:
    When you get the letter done send me a text so I can copy it and I'll definitely send it to my representatives!

    Will do! I'm taking my time with the text, and gathering the most salient points from discussions like this. The naysayers are providing me with some interesting counterpoints as well. Thanks for your interest.

    Please share with the forum. I'm glad you're seeing the worms.

    Indexing gains to inflation would be wonderful.

    Preparedness would be tested.

    Excuses are tools of the ignorant

    Knowledge is the enemy of fear

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    percybpercyb Posts: 3,303 ✭✭✭
    edited May 15, 2024 9:56AM

    Good luck I say.

    "Poets are the unacknowledged legislators of the world." PBShelley
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    logger7logger7 Posts: 8,190 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I used to see predictions that as gold soared the efforts to clamp down on the trade in various guises would be stepped up. Investment gurus such as Suzy Orman used to say that gold only goes up during bad times.

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    cohodkcohodk Posts: 18,720 ✭✭✭✭✭

    You ain't never seen inflation like that which would be released if gains were indexed to inflation.

    Bigly inflation!!

    Excuses are tools of the ignorant

    Knowledge is the enemy of fear

  • Options
    jmski52jmski52 Posts: 22,471 ✭✭✭✭✭

    You ain't never seen inflation like that which would be released if gains were indexed to inflation.

    Bigly inflation!!

    I believe that you are mistaken. Indexing gains to inflation would result in the gains being discounted by the inflation number, not added to it.

    Q: Are You Printing Money? Bernanke: Not Literally

    I knew it would happen.
  • Options
    cohodkcohodk Posts: 18,720 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @jmski52 said:
    You ain't never seen inflation like that which would be released if gains were indexed to inflation.

    Bigly inflation!!

    I believe that you are mistaken. Indexing gains to inflation would result in the gains being discounted by the inflation number, not added to it.

    Actually your are wrong as is whomever agreed with you.

    Trillions and trillions of dollars of unrealized capital gains is locked up as folk don't want to sell their appreciated assets. If you index to inflation, you will reduce those gains and folk will be willing to sell those assets. Money velocity would ratchet up big time and another massive wave of money would be unleashed. Not to mention the reduced tax base and hence greater govt deficit spending.

    Bigly inflation.

    Excuses are tools of the ignorant

    Knowledge is the enemy of fear

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