@Coin Finder said:
Well, interesting thread. I think PCGS changed "reality" in 1986 with certification services. When did they start slabbing clad?
In about 1994 they started getting a lot of clad proofs for grading because they were easy to find in high grade and people who didn't know this would pay large premiums. About 1998 they started including BU modern registry sets and early submissions were to fill the demand of these.
If the mint stops producing coins that will be a reality changer. And would that kill coin collecting or enhance it? I don't know.
It wouldn't have much effect at first and might even spur collecting a little. But over the long term collecting would go the ay of the horse and wagon except in several specialty fields like archaeology and industrial archaeology. After three or four generations it wouldn't even be the "Hobby of Kings" any longer but the hobby of specialists.
And the point is that of you have 10% of your assets in PMs, your "wealth effect" is driven by the other 90%.
I don't buy gold to sell. It is strictly insurance. If I live so long it is the last thing I'll own.
I buy silver as an investment. I believe in the long term there will be a paradigm shift that will revalue it. It is far too cheap relative to gold. Being cheap I try to acquire it in ways that are very inexpensive and chief among these ways is buying very low premium silver when the price is low and trading it for extremely high premium silver when the price is very high. Ya' win some ya' lose some.
With more than 3 billion ounces of silver kicking around in this country alone (much of it among coin collectors), there is ample reason to believe there will be and is some "wealth effect" already taking place.
One appealing aspect of collecting modern coins (including clad coinage) is that it has (and still does) allow persons who are hard wired to look for and obtain the "best" to do so:
for modest money (similar to what Mr. Hansen is doing with all US Coinage going back to 1792);
as a contrarian (collecting in areas that are not heavily collected in does have aspects that appeal to certain persons);
and assemble a collection that few if any other collectors can match (Wondercoin's clad Washington Quarter Registry Set, which is still not available for public viewing ).
And the point is that of you have 10% of your assets in PMs, your "wealth effect" is driven by the other 90%.
I don't buy gold to sell. It is strictly insurance. If I live so long it is the last thing I'll own.
I buy silver as an investment. I believe in the long term there will be a paradigm shift that will revalue it. It is far too cheap relative to gold. Being cheap I try to acquire it in ways that are very inexpensive and chief among these ways is buying very low premium silver when the price is low and trading it for extremely high premium silver when the price is very high. Ya' win some ya' lose some.
With more than 3 billion ounces of silver kicking around in this country alone (much of it among coin collectors), there is ample reason to believe there will be and is some "wealth effect" already taking place.
3 billion ounces of silver is a gain of $30 billion in wealth if silver goes up $10. The total value of the stock market is $51 trillion. So a 1% move in the stock market creates $500 billion.
The stock market wealth has increased $8 trillion this year.
Your focus on PMs for wealth borders on illusion. Silver has to get to $100 per ounce to equal HALF the wealth created in the stock market this year.
The "wealth effect" exists in collectibles but it is due to the stock market and real estate not PMs.
The "wealth effect" exists in collectibles but it is due to the stock market and real estate not PMs.
Some whose house or portfolio just tripled in value might feel wealthier and spend more money on coins but a relatively small percentage of all the wealth generated is going to go into coins. Conversely if gold and silver increase, much more of it is likely to go into coins. Money made in the stock market is more likely to go into the stock market.
30 billion dollars is even small for the coin market now days but it is simply astronomical to modern coins.
‘’Your focus on PMs for wealth borders on delusion”
That’s a bit harsh. I know many people who focused on PM’s for wealth building. JHF (RIP) as far as I know was the biggest “gold bug” you will ever find. PM’s made him very wealthy based upon his “two ways to win” formula of combining PM’s with numismatic potential. Last I recall, he had about 70,000 paid subscribers following his “two ways to win” formula (he was regarded as one of the very best copywriters in the World). I followed his lead to a significant extent, other than listening to a very bright board member here around 15-20 years ago who convinced me to buy Apple stock (much of which I still own). My profits on P.M.’s recently has allowed me to personally spend even more money on Clad coins - exactly as CladKing has suggested. On a percentage basis, the clad coins are obviously a small % of my P.M. or Apple holdings (not counting the Unique No S Ike of course), but, a solid position nonetheless as I am either the #1 or #2 set holder of many clad wash. quarter, Kennedy Half and Ike $1 Registry sets (and bow my head in respect to the the great John / Nick on their work with Clad Dimes).
Hypothetically, if my precious metals position rose by $100,000, I could easily justify adding $5,000 - $10,000 to my speculative Clad Registry set holdings without “batting an eyelash”.
Just my 2 cents.
Wondercoin
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
I will quote the 7 biggerst investing houses:
:" 1% gold is insurance, 2 to 2.5% silver is profit, and till 12% economical profit and insurance it is metallic comodities: Cooper, Zinck, Lead, Nickel and PGM (platinium group metals), manganese and graphene. end quote"
Gold is back up now at high by the Feds buyng 1200 mT in 22 and 800 mT in 23. Basic in infalion period the gold do not perform, but them buy because due to theirs new neo-marxist policy, green and CO2 and CH4 scam ideology, they has to have gold in order to perform on international market. World seem to devide: 1. Rissia, China, India, Medle-east, brasil, Mexico etc versus curency backed by gold and silver. 2. US and allyes on stand for currency back by the GDP. In this case the GDP's countries must have an alternative second currency in order to perform internationaly.
Now, the wold's mouvement it is versus digital currency (inevitable). This brink up in collecting and for new collectors the open door for the modern coins (more disponibles and affordable in some cases). This trend it is normal because it is human behivior to preserve affinity for theirs born place and cultural racines. 5 years ago I collected clad coins only for theirs design varieties and the I decide to build a complete sets: standard, varieties, much errors possible. Today I love to look at the collections: miss 2 halves and 3 quarters. So the new wave of collecting reflect of the basic human been.
From point of view of the gold, silver value: I will say that the silver perform better then the gold. On 20 years, gold green 7.3% and the silver 9.7%. If gold it is an mith, the silver is also an economical base. Gold production do not miss and it is an amorph commodity, but silver is different. With his 22-23 500million oz deficit and estimate other 400 mill oz deficit this years will go to one of the most want commodity. silver it is the base for the most advensed technologies which represent 80% of the word economy. Basic no of those advance technologies could survive with out (for the moment).
Other interesting poin in this topic it is the fact that manny look just for the classic coins. I understand the factors, but no one stipulate the avalibility. Majority was reedem by the Mint and the 90% hoarded. So the moden coins it is the trend and till coins will not be just history, it is the alternative.
PS: In end of 78 begin of 79 I buyed 10Kg gold at 9800 $/kg and aprox. 25 kg Si at 105$/kg. The gold it is 77732$/kg to day and if insted of 9800$/kg gold I was buyed Si will be 93 333$. So who perform better???
NEVER ARGUE WITH AN IDIOT.FIRST THEY WILL DRAG YOU DOWN TO THEIR LEVEL.THEN, THEY WILL BEAT YOU WITH EXPERIENCE. MARK TWAIN
@wondercoin said:
‘’Your focus on PMs for wealth borders on delusion”
That’s a bit harsh. I know many people who focused on PM’s for wealth building. JHF (RIP) as far as I know was the biggest “gold bug” you will ever find. PM’s made him very wealthy based upon his “two ways to win” formula of combining PM’s with numismatic potential. Last I recall, he had about 70,000 paid subscribers following his “two ways to win” formula (he was regarded as one of the very best copywriters in the World). I followed his lead to a significant extent, other than listening to a very bright board member here around 15-20 years ago who convinced me to buy Apple stock (much of which I still own). My profits on P.M.’s recently has allowed me to personally spend even more money on Clad coins - exactly as CladKing has suggested. On a percentage basis, the clad coins are obviously a small % of my P.M. or Apple holdings (not counting the Unique No S Ike of course), but, a solid position nonetheless as I am either the #1 or #2 set holder of many clad wash. quarter, Kennedy Half and Ike $1 Registry sets (and bow my head in respect to the the great John / Nick on their work with Clad Dimes).
Hypothetically, if my precious metals position rose by $100,000, I could easily justify adding $5,000 - $10,000 to my speculative Clad Registry set holdings without “batting an eyelash”.
Just my 2 cents.
Wondercoin
I'm not arguing for or against PMs for wealth building. But the vast majority of any wealth effect in collectibles is due to stocks and real estate not a 20% increase in gold prices. So if a "wealth effect" is going to drive clad prices, it should have been happening all along. Focus on the overwhelming importance of PM prices is what I'm calling a delusion (illusion?) Price moves in stocks and real estate dwarf PM moves as a percentage and absolutely obliterate it as a total $ value. [See my numbers above]
Most people assign irrationality to any argument with which they don't agree. Science changes one funeral at a time and the world changes one paradigm shift at a time. Civilizations come and go because they can't change to adapt to their niche and then jump the shark as they fail. In some cases they fail by promoting the weak, inefficient, and those who cause the problems to being in charge of solving them as in the case of global warming. Such is the nature of our species and each of its members. We are a product of our time and place so those who have seen 42 years of stock markets advancing can hardly imagine two generations of movement sideways.
Whatever happens in the future will unfold naturally and from events that haven't happened yet so are unpredictable. But this unfolding and the events will all be perfectly logical. What isn't logical is 60 years of US coin collectors ignoring US coins. It is impossible for this to persist indefinitely. It can only continue longer than anyone cares.
As I said this thread is overly presumptive because metal gains to date are too insignificant to have a dramatic effect on even a market as tiny as moderns. But I suppose what I was thinking when I authored it is that many changes seem to have a triggering event and the metals have already increased enough to trigger a move toward moderns. I don't "know" that the time is ripe but I certainly know there is ample anecdotal evidence to suggest exactly this possibility. Whatever happens a lot of coin collectors are enjoying this move higher whether they are selling, as I am, or just watching the value of their collections soar.
@SanctionII said:
One appealing aspect of collecting modern coins (including clad coinage) is that it has (and still does) allow persons who are hard wired to look for and obtain the "best" to do so:
for modest money (similar to what Mr. Hansen is doing with all US Coinage going back to 1792);
as a contrarian (collecting in areas that are not heavily collected in does have aspects that appeal to certain persons);
and assemble a collection that few if any other collectors can match (Wondercoin's clad Washington Quarter Registry Set, which is still not available for public viewing ).
I'm a contrarian and I like having the finest. Also I've never had much money to put into coin collecting so have had to do it on a shoestring. As a generalist I don't like being tied to a single series or even a single country. My memory has been excellent so I have also included tokens and medals though with these I'm looking more to completion than quality per se.
"Moderns" have become a huge specialty even if you don't include foreign moderns. They are a challenge to find, collect, and remember. Just figuring out where to look has been a challenge for me.
This is an interesting thread, though I do disagree about a chance of a large run up in clad coins, even though some years are very scarce for gem examples.
As for wealth building, I'm glad I didn't listen to the gold bugs, hard money fans, bunker preppers or others like that for investment advice. Otherwise my retirement at age 62 would have been postponed to at least to age 162!
@ElmerFusterpuck said:
This is an interesting thread, though I do disagree about a chance of a large run up in clad coins, even though some years are very scarce for gem examples.
As for wealth building, I'm glad I didn't listen to the gold bugs, hard money fans, bunker preppers or others like that for investment advice. Otherwise my retirement at age 62 would have been postponed to at least to age 162!
If you can guarantee me 162, I'd sign up for that!
@GoldFinger1969 said: What's with the focus on "clad coins" ? Any particular reason reason to focus on coins that combine 2 metals, one of which is presumably a semi-PM ?
I started experimenting with submitting clad coins back in 1998 (CN Ike Dollars) as I was looking for a niche to work on Teletrade as the regular coin market was slow. Back then I made a 72-D & 77-D Ike in MS67 and they realized great money to me, all things considered ($1600 for the 72-D). Forget what the 77-D brought.
$1600 for a lowly Ike Dollar was amazing (and funny as it was like free money) at the time!
From late Spring to about July 1999 I slabbed seven 1976P T-1 Ikes in MS66, raising the PCGS pops from to 13. They were very profitable on Teletrade as well. Interestingly, I have not been able to get another 76P T-1 Ike in MS66 slabbed since - twenty-five years. (I do have several nice PCGS MS65 & 65+ examples that I will try again in the future.
It goes w/o saying that the registry set program is responsible for the high prices.
‘’Back then I made a 72-D & 77-D Ike in MS67 and they realized great money to me, all things considered ($1600 for the 72-D). Forget what the 77-D brought.’’
And that was before prices skyrocketed! Years later, my wife slabbed a lovely 72-D MS67 Ike at the height of the market in Las Vegas at a PCGS event. I saw that she wouldn’t let me keep it for my set (without a fight)! It fetched about $17,000.00 in a quick private sale and she bought a beautiful Prada handbag at the Vegas shop with a portion of “the winnings”. The Prada handbag then skyrocketed in value and the Ike crashed (allowing me to buy a nice MS67 CAC version for a tiny fraction of that price years later). What were the odds of that happening! 🤣
Wondercoin.
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
Looking back I would've have been better off if I never branched out into modern clad coinage. Focusing in on acquiring BU rolls of Lincoln Memorial Cents thru SBA Dollars in pursuit of making top pop coins instead of staying with the bread-and-butter coins such as Morgan & Peace Dollars cost me time and money (and frustration w/PCGS - a whole separate topic I won't go into here) over the years
Oh the missed opportunities. . . . .
Comments
In about 1994 they started getting a lot of clad proofs for grading because they were easy to find in high grade and people who didn't know this would pay large premiums. About 1998 they started including BU modern registry sets and early submissions were to fill the demand of these.
It wouldn't have much effect at first and might even spur collecting a little. But over the long term collecting would go the ay of the horse and wagon except in several specialty fields like archaeology and industrial archaeology. After three or four generations it wouldn't even be the "Hobby of Kings" any longer but the hobby of specialists.
I don't buy gold to sell. It is strictly insurance. If I live so long it is the last thing I'll own.
I buy silver as an investment. I believe in the long term there will be a paradigm shift that will revalue it. It is far too cheap relative to gold. Being cheap I try to acquire it in ways that are very inexpensive and chief among these ways is buying very low premium silver when the price is low and trading it for extremely high premium silver when the price is very high. Ya' win some ya' lose some.
With more than 3 billion ounces of silver kicking around in this country alone (much of it among coin collectors), there is ample reason to believe there will be and is some "wealth effect" already taking place.
One appealing aspect of collecting modern coins (including clad coinage) is that it has (and still does) allow persons who are hard wired to look for and obtain the "best" to do so:
for modest money (similar to what Mr. Hansen is doing with all US Coinage going back to 1792);
as a contrarian (collecting in areas that are not heavily collected in does have aspects that appeal to certain persons);
and assemble a collection that few if any other collectors can match (Wondercoin's clad Washington Quarter Registry Set, which is still not available for public viewing
).
3 billion ounces of silver is a gain of $30 billion in wealth if silver goes up $10. The total value of the stock market is $51 trillion. So a 1% move in the stock market creates $500 billion.
The stock market wealth has increased $8 trillion this year.
Your focus on PMs for wealth borders on illusion. Silver has to get to $100 per ounce to equal HALF the wealth created in the stock market this year.
The "wealth effect" exists in collectibles but it is due to the stock market and real estate not PMs.
Some whose house or portfolio just tripled in value might feel wealthier and spend more money on coins but a relatively small percentage of all the wealth generated is going to go into coins. Conversely if gold and silver increase, much more of it is likely to go into coins. Money made in the stock market is more likely to go into the stock market.
30 billion dollars is even small for the coin market now days but it is simply astronomical to modern coins.
‘’Your focus on PMs for wealth borders on delusion”
That’s a bit harsh. I know many people who focused on PM’s for wealth building. JHF (RIP) as far as I know was the biggest “gold bug” you will ever find. PM’s made him very wealthy based upon his “two ways to win” formula of combining PM’s with numismatic potential. Last I recall, he had about 70,000 paid subscribers following his “two ways to win” formula (he was regarded as one of the very best copywriters in the World). I followed his lead to a significant extent, other than listening to a very bright board member here around 15-20 years ago who convinced me to buy Apple stock (much of which I still own). My profits on P.M.’s recently has allowed me to personally spend even more money on Clad coins - exactly as CladKing has suggested. On a percentage basis, the clad coins are obviously a small % of my P.M. or Apple holdings (not counting the Unique No S Ike of course), but, a solid position nonetheless as I am either the #1 or #2 set holder of many clad wash. quarter, Kennedy Half and Ike $1 Registry sets (and bow my head in respect to the the great John / Nick on their work with Clad Dimes).
Hypothetically, if my precious metals position rose by $100,000, I could easily justify adding $5,000 - $10,000 to my speculative Clad Registry set holdings without “batting an eyelash”.
Just my 2 cents.
Wondercoin
I will quote the 7 biggerst investing houses:
:" 1% gold is insurance, 2 to 2.5% silver is profit, and till 12% economical profit and insurance it is metallic comodities: Cooper, Zinck, Lead, Nickel and PGM (platinium group metals), manganese and graphene. end quote"
Gold is back up now at high by the Feds buyng 1200 mT in 22 and 800 mT in 23. Basic in infalion period the gold do not perform, but them buy because due to theirs new neo-marxist policy, green and CO2 and CH4 scam ideology, they has to have gold in order to perform on international market. World seem to devide: 1. Rissia, China, India, Medle-east, brasil, Mexico etc versus curency backed by gold and silver. 2. US and allyes on stand for currency back by the GDP. In this case the GDP's countries must have an alternative second currency in order to perform internationaly.
Now, the wold's mouvement it is versus digital currency (inevitable). This brink up in collecting and for new collectors the open door for the modern coins (more disponibles and affordable in some cases). This trend it is normal because it is human behivior to preserve affinity for theirs born place and cultural racines. 5 years ago I collected clad coins only for theirs design varieties and the I decide to build a complete sets: standard, varieties, much errors possible. Today I love to look at the collections: miss 2 halves and 3 quarters. So the new wave of collecting reflect of the basic human been.
From point of view of the gold, silver value: I will say that the silver perform better then the gold. On 20 years, gold green 7.3% and the silver 9.7%. If gold it is an mith, the silver is also an economical base. Gold production do not miss and it is an amorph commodity, but silver is different. With his 22-23 500million oz deficit and estimate other 400 mill oz deficit this years will go to one of the most want commodity. silver it is the base for the most advensed technologies which represent 80% of the word economy. Basic no of those advance technologies could survive with out (for the moment).
Other interesting poin in this topic it is the fact that manny look just for the classic coins. I understand the factors, but no one stipulate the avalibility. Majority was reedem by the Mint and the 90% hoarded. So the moden coins it is the trend and till coins will not be just history, it is the alternative.
PS: In end of 78 begin of 79 I buyed 10Kg gold at 9800 $/kg and aprox. 25 kg Si at 105$/kg. The gold it is 77732$/kg to day and if insted of 9800$/kg gold I was buyed Si will be 93 333$. So who perform better???
NEVER ARGUE WITH AN IDIOT.
FIRST THEY WILL DRAG YOU DOWN TO THEIR LEVEL.
THEN, THEY WILL BEAT YOU WITH EXPERIENCE.
MARK TWAIN
I'm not arguing for or against PMs for wealth building. But the vast majority of any wealth effect in collectibles is due to stocks and real estate not a 20% increase in gold prices. So if a "wealth effect" is going to drive clad prices, it should have been happening all along. Focus on the overwhelming importance of PM prices is what I'm calling a delusion (illusion?) Price moves in stocks and real estate dwarf PM moves as a percentage and absolutely obliterate it as a total $ value. [See my numbers above]
Most people assign irrationality to any argument with which they don't agree. Science changes one funeral at a time and the world changes one paradigm shift at a time. Civilizations come and go because they can't change to adapt to their niche and then jump the shark as they fail. In some cases they fail by promoting the weak, inefficient, and those who cause the problems to being in charge of solving them as in the case of global warming. Such is the nature of our species and each of its members. We are a product of our time and place so those who have seen 42 years of stock markets advancing can hardly imagine two generations of movement sideways.
Whatever happens in the future will unfold naturally and from events that haven't happened yet so are unpredictable. But this unfolding and the events will all be perfectly logical. What isn't logical is 60 years of US coin collectors ignoring US coins. It is impossible for this to persist indefinitely. It can only continue longer than anyone cares.
As I said this thread is overly presumptive because metal gains to date are too insignificant to have a dramatic effect on even a market as tiny as moderns. But I suppose what I was thinking when I authored it is that many changes seem to have a triggering event and the metals have already increased enough to trigger a move toward moderns. I don't "know" that the time is ripe but I certainly know there is ample anecdotal evidence to suggest exactly this possibility. Whatever happens a lot of coin collectors are enjoying this move higher whether they are selling, as I am, or just watching the value of their collections soar.
I'm a contrarian and I like having the finest. Also I've never had much money to put into coin collecting so have had to do it on a shoestring. As a generalist I don't like being tied to a single series or even a single country. My memory has been excellent so I have also included tokens and medals though with these I'm looking more to completion than quality per se.
"Moderns" have become a huge specialty even if you don't include foreign moderns. They are a challenge to find, collect, and remember. Just figuring out where to look has been a challenge for me.
This is an interesting thread, though I do disagree about a chance of a large run up in clad coins, even though some years are very scarce for gem examples.
As for wealth building, I'm glad I didn't listen to the gold bugs, hard money fans, bunker preppers or others like that for investment advice. Otherwise my retirement at age 62 would have been postponed to at least to age 162!
10-4,
My Instagram picturesErik
My registry sets
If you can guarantee me 162, I'd sign up for that!
What's with the focus on "clad coins" ? Any particular reason reason to focus on coins that combine 2 metals, one of which is presumably a semi-PM ?
I'm just glad I saved my copper cents.
Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value. Zero. Voltaire. Ebay coinbowlllc
It's a dirty job but somebody has to do it.
I started experimenting with submitting clad coins back in 1998 (CN Ike Dollars) as I was looking for a niche to work on Teletrade as the regular coin market was slow. Back then I made a 72-D & 77-D Ike in MS67 and they realized great money to me, all things considered ($1600 for the 72-D). Forget what the 77-D brought.
$1600 for a lowly Ike Dollar was amazing (and funny as it was like free money) at the time!
From late Spring to about July 1999 I slabbed seven 1976P T-1 Ikes in MS66, raising the PCGS pops from to 13. They were very profitable on Teletrade as well. Interestingly, I have not been able to get another 76P T-1 Ike in MS66 slabbed since - twenty-five years. (I do have several nice PCGS MS65 & 65+ examples that I will try again in the future.
It goes w/o saying that the registry set program is responsible for the high prices.
‘’Back then I made a 72-D & 77-D Ike in MS67 and they realized great money to me, all things considered ($1600 for the 72-D). Forget what the 77-D brought.’’
And that was before prices skyrocketed! Years later, my wife slabbed a lovely 72-D MS67 Ike at the height of the market in Las Vegas at a PCGS event. I saw that she wouldn’t let me keep it for my set (without a fight)! It fetched about $17,000.00 in a quick private sale and she bought a beautiful Prada handbag at the Vegas shop with a portion of “the winnings”. The Prada handbag then skyrocketed in value and the Ike crashed (allowing me to buy a nice MS67 CAC version for a tiny fraction of that price years later). What were the odds of that happening! 🤣
Wondercoin.
Sounds like a BIG win-win occurrence for you, Wondercoin.
Sounds like a BIG win-win occurrence for you, Wondercoin.
If we don’t count the 50 Ike coins I held onto!! lol
Wondercoin.
Looking back I would've have been better off if I never branched out into modern clad coinage. Focusing in on acquiring BU rolls of Lincoln Memorial Cents thru SBA Dollars in pursuit of making top pop coins instead of staying with the bread-and-butter coins such as Morgan & Peace Dollars cost me time and money (and frustration w/PCGS - a whole separate topic I won't go into here) over the years
Oh the missed opportunities. . . . .
>
If there were a lot of slab worthy coins, they wouldn’t be slab worthy, right?
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
‘’and frustration w/PCGS - a whole separate topic I won't go into here’’
They know it’s a “love-hate” relationship! Do tell your best story!
Wondercoin
Nope.