Sammy Sosa 2001 season...where does it rank

1948_Swell_Robinson

Where does his 2001 hitting season rank in the post war era when looking at a combination of sabermetric and traditional back of the baseball card stats?

BA. 328
OB% .437
SLg% .737

Runs Scored 146
HR 64
RBI 160

OPS+ 203
Run Expectancy 90.6
WPA 6.6

For example, Bonds in 2001 had the better season sabermetrically, but Sosa actually scored more runs and drove in more runs than Bonds that same year, while also holding his own sabermetrically.

craig44

Sosa was simply great in 2001. production was fantastic. has to be one of the greatest seasons of all time.

1948_Swell_Robinson

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cmd-n56kGvo

DrBuster

Was at the game in Atlanta when he hit #53 that year. Was insane HR vibe that year, everyone in the stadium was wanting him to hit it.

bgr

Impressive regardless, but now that we know he's a vampire... a bit less so.

JoeBanzai

Super year for cheaters who without steroids were NO WHERE NEAR that good.
What a joke.

DrBuster

@JoeBanzai said:
Super year for cheaters who without steroids were NO WHERE NEAR that good.
What a joke.

let me ask you a medical question, along with everyone else. are health meds across the med spectrum PEDs? if you say no, explain, with focus on how something for blood pressure, nerve damage like parkinsons or neuropothy, recovery meds for surgery that might be steroids, etc etc etc aren't PEDs. Cause all of those and most things across the board are PEDS. you don't get to pick and choose your flavor of bitchable poison with this,, which is why this argument is jaded

bgr

@DrBuster said:

@JoeBanzai said:
Super year for cheaters who without steroids were NO WHERE NEAR that good.
What a joke.

let me ask you a medical question, along with everyone else. are health meds across the med spectrum PEDs? if you say no, explain, with focus on how something for blood pressure, nerve damage like parkinsons or neuropothy, recovery meds for surgery that might be steroids, etc etc etc aren't PEDs. Cause all of those and most things across the board are PEDS. you don't get to pick and choose your flavor of bitchable poison with this,, which is why this argument is jaded

I’m in the PEDs are not the end of the world camp. In my opinion baseball has always had a PED problem. For a long time it was amphetamines. Us humans are simple thinkers.

Basebal21

@DrBuster said:

@JoeBanzai said:
Super year for cheaters who without steroids were NO WHERE NEAR that good.
What a joke.

let me ask you a medical question, along with everyone else. are health meds across the med spectrum PEDs? if you say no, explain, with focus on how something for blood pressure, nerve damage like parkinsons or neuropothy, recovery meds for surgery that might be steroids, etc etc etc aren't PEDs. Cause all of those and most things across the board are PEDS. you don't get to pick and choose your flavor of bitchable poison with this,, which is why this argument is jaded

Plus things like eye surgery improving vision and even orthopedic surgeries which significantly improve body function or save a career that would have been over 50/60 years ago without it

Basebal21

As good as Sosa was I would still take Bonds 2001 over his. Auriela took away a lot of RBI opportunities from him in a good way and Bonds was getting walked a ton anytime someone was on base.

I'd be interested if someone knows of someone else but to this day Bonds is still the only player I can think of that was intentionally walked with the bases loaded

bgr

I can understand the argument to keep Rose out of the hof, but with Bonds…. He should be in twice. Once with a normal size head on his bust and one with that giant late-career melon.

As for the intentional bases loaded walk.

It’s a bit unclear. The intentional walk only existed since the 50s. Before that you had to just pitch outside.

Look up Del Bittonette or something like that. I think he’s credited as the first perhaps. I’m not sure if buck was even the 2nd. Maybe the first time in the 9th or something. I’m going to get you a Google subscription.

dallasactuary

Ranked by whom? No self-respecting baseball fan would rank Sosa's 2001 season anywhere.

Basebal21

@bgr said:
As for the intentional bases loaded walk.

It’s a bit unclear. The intentional walk only existed since the 50s. Before that you had to just pitch outside.

Look up Del Bittonette or something like that. I think he’s credited as the first perhaps. I’m not sure if buck was even the 2nd. Maybe the first time in the 9th or something. I’m going to get you a Google subscription.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vr7vPDNG3q0

This is an intentional walk with the bases loaded. You can just put someone on now but trying to get someone to chase isnt an intentional walk

bgr

@Basebal21 said:

@bgr said:
As for the intentional bases loaded walk.

It’s a bit unclear. The intentional walk only existed since the 50s. Before that you had to just pitch outside.

Look up Del Bittonette or something like that. I think he’s credited as the first perhaps. I’m not sure if buck was even the 2nd. Maybe the first time in the 9th or something. I’m going to get you a Google subscription.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vr7vPDNG3q0

This is an intentional walk with the bases loaded. You can just put someone on now but trying to get someone to chase isnt an intentional walk

It was Bissonette! But it still only took seconds to find.

https://baseballroundtable.com/a-walk-in-the-park-ranking-mlbs-bases-loaded-intentional-passes/

bgr

I thought Bissonette was the manager at the time but he was the hitter then.

Basebal21

@bgr said:

@Basebal21 said:

@bgr said:
As for the intentional bases loaded walk.

It’s a bit unclear. The intentional walk only existed since the 50s. Before that you had to just pitch outside.

Look up Del Bittonette or something like that. I think he’s credited as the first perhaps. I’m not sure if buck was even the 2nd. Maybe the first time in the 9th or something. I’m going to get you a Google subscription.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vr7vPDNG3q0

This is an intentional walk with the bases loaded. You can just put someone on now but trying to get someone to chase isnt an intentional walk

It was Bissonette! But it still only took seconds to find.

https://baseballroundtable.com/a-walk-in-the-park-ranking-mlbs-bases-loaded-intentional-passes/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z2lpG0lDkmo

Hamilton I forgot about. Thats a good one for modern era baseball

craig44

@DrBuster said:

@JoeBanzai said:
Super year for cheaters who without steroids were NO WHERE NEAR that good.
What a joke.

let me ask you a medical question, along with everyone else. are health meds across the med spectrum PEDs? if you say no, explain, with focus on how something for blood pressure, nerve damage like parkinsons or neuropothy, recovery meds for surgery that might be steroids, etc etc etc aren't PEDs. Cause all of those and most things across the board are PEDS. you don't get to pick and choose your flavor of bitchable poison with this,, which is why this argument is jaded

I have been considering what you mention here for quite a few years. I think I am in your camp. PED has ALWAYS been part of the game. since at least the 1890's. some are more effective, some less. consider tommy john surgery, pain killers, cortisone shots, anti inflammatories, surgery of all types, corrective eye surgery, amphetamine etc.

I believe wade boggs had corrective eye surgery during his career. would that not be considered performance enhancing?

people LOVE to cherry pick. the problem is, we don't know who used or who didn't. and pre 2005 none of it was against the rules of the game.

1948_Swell_Robinson

@craig44 said:

@DrBuster said:

@JoeBanzai said:
Super year for cheaters who without steroids were NO WHERE NEAR that good.
What a joke.

let me ask you a medical question, along with everyone else. are health meds across the med spectrum PEDs? if you say no, explain, with focus on how something for blood pressure, nerve damage like parkinsons or neuropothy, recovery meds for surgery that might be steroids, etc etc etc aren't PEDs. Cause all of those and most things across the board are PEDS. you don't get to pick and choose your flavor of bitchable poison with this,, which is why this argument is jaded

I have been considering what you mention here for quite a few years. I think I am in your camp. PED has ALWAYS been part of the game. since at least the 1890's. some are more effective, some less. consider tommy john surgery, pain killers, cortisone shots, anti inflammatories, surgery of all types, corrective eye surgery, amphetamine etc.

I believe wade boggs had corrective eye surgery during his career. would that not be considered performance enhancing?

people LOVE to cherry pick. the problem is, we don't know who used or who didn't. and pre 2005 none of it was against the rules of the game.

You have been the toughest person anyone has debated about this topic and I haven't seen anyone bring many good counterpoints against your stances, in particular the stance about what do you do with PED's that are now considered acceptable, but in 20 years they are no longer acceptable?

Obviously, there is a moral aspect of it being banned and knowingly breaking a rule, but that isn't what bothers baseball fans. What bothers fans is that someone is viewed as having a clear advantage that vaults them above everyone else.

So if I was taking a substance now that is 'legal' but in 20 years you took it and it was banned(and you got banned as a result), then didn't we both benefit the same in regard to on the field performance, and thus both our stats should be viewed as equally?

coinkat

I did not bother to look at numbers but I think Hack Wilson's 1930 was better than Soza's- if not it is likely very close.

craig44

@1948_Swell_Robinson said:

@craig44 said:

@DrBuster said:

@JoeBanzai said:
Super year for cheaters who without steroids were NO WHERE NEAR that good.
What a joke.

let me ask you a medical question, along with everyone else. are health meds across the med spectrum PEDs? if you say no, explain, with focus on how something for blood pressure, nerve damage like parkinsons or neuropothy, recovery meds for surgery that might be steroids, etc etc etc aren't PEDs. Cause all of those and most things across the board are PEDS. you don't get to pick and choose your flavor of bitchable poison with this,, which is why this argument is jaded

I have been considering what you mention here for quite a few years. I think I am in your camp. PED has ALWAYS been part of the game. since at least the 1890's. some are more effective, some less. consider tommy john surgery, pain killers, cortisone shots, anti inflammatories, surgery of all types, corrective eye surgery, amphetamine etc.

I believe wade boggs had corrective eye surgery during his career. would that not be considered performance enhancing?

people LOVE to cherry pick. the problem is, we don't know who used or who didn't. and pre 2005 none of it was against the rules of the game.

You have been the toughest person anyone has debated about this topic and I haven't seen anyone bring many good counterpoints against your stances, in particular the stance about what do you do with PED's that are now considered acceptable, but in 20 years they are no longer acceptable?

Obviously, there is a moral aspect of it being banned and knowingly breaking a rule, but that isn't what bothers baseball fans. What bothers fans is that someone is viewed as having a clear advantage that vaults them above everyone else.

So if I was taking a substance now that is 'legal' but in 20 years you took it and it was banned(and you got banned as a result), then didn't we both benefit the same in regard to on the field performance, and thus both our stats should be viewed as equally?

this. exactly. it is a question many either cant or simply refuse to answer.

what about lasik? that is a procedure done by a few HOFers. Bagwell had it done in 2000. Boggs and Maddux in 1999.

that is a procedure that is certainly performance enhancing and was not available to players just a decade earlier. should that advantage have been weighed against their HOF careers? I don't think so, but to be consistent, those who have a strict, hard line stance against PED should take that into account.

perkdog

It's shocking to me that we are mentioning Lasik in the same conversation of PED use

perkdog

The one annoying thing about the PED era conversations is that the same names get brought up over and over again with Bonds getting the worst rap even though the majority of his peers were doing it.

I'd be willing to bet Ryan, Ripken and Griffey all used as well, just my personal opinion of course

Basebal21

@perkdog said:
It's shocking to me that we are mentioning Lasik in the same conversation of PED use

Thats honestly one of the biggest ones that a number of players quietly do by choice. Obviously if you cant see you cant hit, but the better vision makes it much easier to see where the pitchers fingers are on the ball/how many fingers/seem orientation/spin as it comes out of their hand. Their stuff is go good you can know exactly whats coming and still miss it, but Lasik is definitely a performance enhancer

bgr

I’ve never looked down the barrel at a professional pitcher. One of my neighbors was a former player in the Yankees and Astros organizations. He never made it to MLB but I recall one evening that he was telling me about how teams train hitters to see white vs red. More white and it’s a slider/curve etc. more red and it’s a fastball.. usually. Cutter, sinker, change. There are a bunch of ones that are hard to see.

I don’t know if this was true but it was super interesting to hear about.

Maybe this has a basis in reality and someone knows more about it. I’m fishing.

perkdog

@Basebal21 said:

@perkdog said:
It's shocking to me that we are mentioning Lasik in the same conversation of PED use

Thats honestly one of the biggest ones that a number of players quietly do by choice. Obviously if you cant see you cant hit, but the better vision makes it much easier to see where the pitchers fingers are on the ball/how many fingers/seem orientation/spin as it comes out of their hand. Their stuff is go good you can know exactly whats coming and still miss it, but Lasik is definitely a performance enhancer

Sure it's a "Performance enhancer" that a librarian could also do to enhance themselves and make them better at their jobs

Put it this way there isn't a single ball player out there that would claim they accidentally got lasik surgery or got a corrective procedure done but didn't know it was Lasik

I get the jist of this argument but it's reaching pretty far in my opinion

Basebal21

@bgr said:
I’ve never looked down the barrel at a professional pitcher. One of my neighbors was a former player in the Yankees and Astros organizations. He never made it to MLB but I recall one evening that he was telling me about how teams train hitters to see white vs red. More white and it’s a slider/curve etc. more red and it’s a fastball.. usually. Cutter, sinker, change. There are a bunch of ones that are hard to see.

I don’t know if this was true but it was super interesting to hear about.

Maybe this has a basis in reality and someone knows more about it. I’m fishing.

The 4 seam has kind of gone away a bit but yea those look red. Changeups have more fingers on the ball and the pitchers are trying to keep the spin rate down on those. Sliders form a red dot in the front with the rotation of the seams. Curveballs "jump" out of the hand, the really nasty ones you can hear it spinning as it goes by.

Basebal21

@perkdog said:

@Basebal21 said:

@perkdog said:
It's shocking to me that we are mentioning Lasik in the same conversation of PED use

Thats honestly one of the biggest ones that a number of players quietly do by choice. Obviously if you cant see you cant hit, but the better vision makes it much easier to see where the pitchers fingers are on the ball/how many fingers/seem orientation/spin as it comes out of their hand. Their stuff is go good you can know exactly whats coming and still miss it, but Lasik is definitely a performance enhancer

Sure it's a "Performance enhancer" that a librarian could also do to enhance themselves and make them better at their jobs

Put it this way there isn't a single ball player out there that would claim they accidentally got lasik surgery or got a corrective procedure done but didn't know it was Lasik

I get the jist of this argument but it's reaching pretty far in my opinion

The fact that it shouldnt accidentally happen would really just support the claim that its a more knowing performance enhancing decision. Yes players do use the I didnt know argument if they test positive, but its not always just an excuse. Theres things you can buy at the store that make you test positive and a lot of the supplements are made in the same factories that can get contaminated.

Without vision nothing else would matter. 20/10 vision or even 20/15 is a massive enhancement if you werent born with that

bgr

It’s a valid point. I don’t think there’s a good guarantee it will be better than 20 20 though. In the cases mentioned do we know whether their vision was 20 20 before?

Or is this less of an unfair advantage and more of just what you’re born with? If it is the latter then we have a lot to discuss. Like surgery.

perkdog

@Basebal21 said:

@perkdog said:

@Basebal21 said:

@perkdog said:
It's shocking to me that we are mentioning Lasik in the same conversation of PED use

Thats honestly one of the biggest ones that a number of players quietly do by choice. Obviously if you cant see you cant hit, but the better vision makes it much easier to see where the pitchers fingers are on the ball/how many fingers/seem orientation/spin as it comes out of their hand. Their stuff is go good you can know exactly whats coming and still miss it, but Lasik is definitely a performance enhancer

Sure it's a "Performance enhancer" that a librarian could also do to enhance themselves and make them better at their jobs

Put it this way there isn't a single ball player out there that would claim they accidentally got lasik surgery or got a corrective procedure done but didn't know it was Lasik

I get the jist of this argument but it's reaching pretty far in my opinion

The fact that it shouldnt accidentally happen would really just support the claim that its a more knowing performance enhancing decision. Yes players do use the I didnt know argument if they test positive, but its not always just an excuse. Theres things you can buy at the store that make you test positive and a lot of the supplements are made in the same factories that can get contaminated.

Without vision nothing else would matter. 20/10 vision or even 20/15 is a massive enhancement if you werent born with that

My opinion is any ball player who claims he didn't know he was getting PEDS injected into him is lying,

If a DR is giving you a shot do you not ask what it is?

Btw I don't have a problem with steroids, if an adult wants to take them then that's his or her decision and should be ok, but in MLB it's illegal if you get caught.

Lasik is 100% legal and they obviously don't believe it enhances a person's ability to give them an advantage over others.

I mean if it was that big of a deal.every ball player in the field would go out and get Lasik surgery

Tabe

@perkdog said:

I'd be willing to bet Ryan, Ripken and Griffey all used as well, just my personal opinion of course

100% agree on all three. I mean Ripken set a career-high OPS at age 38. C'mon.

Basebal21

@perkdog said:

@Basebal21 said:

@perkdog said:

@Basebal21 said:

@perkdog said:
It's shocking to me that we are mentioning Lasik in the same conversation of PED use

Thats honestly one of the biggest ones that a number of players quietly do by choice. Obviously if you cant see you cant hit, but the better vision makes it much easier to see where the pitchers fingers are on the ball/how many fingers/seem orientation/spin as it comes out of their hand. Their stuff is go good you can know exactly whats coming and still miss it, but Lasik is definitely a performance enhancer

Sure it's a "Performance enhancer" that a librarian could also do to enhance themselves and make them better at their jobs

Put it this way there isn't a single ball player out there that would claim they accidentally got lasik surgery or got a corrective procedure done but didn't know it was Lasik

I get the jist of this argument but it's reaching pretty far in my opinion

The fact that it shouldnt accidentally happen would really just support the claim that its a more knowing performance enhancing decision. Yes players do use the I didnt know argument if they test positive, but its not always just an excuse. Theres things you can buy at the store that make you test positive and a lot of the supplements are made in the same factories that can get contaminated.

Without vision nothing else would matter. 20/10 vision or even 20/15 is a massive enhancement if you werent born with that

My opinion is any ball player who claims he didn't know he was getting PEDS injected into him is lying,

If a DR is giving you a shot do you not ask what it is?

Btw I don't have a problem with steroids, if an adult wants to take them then that's his or her decision and should be ok, but in MLB it's illegal if you get caught.

Lasik is 100% legal and they obviously don't believe it enhances a person's ability to give them an advantage over others.

I mean if it was that big of a deal.every ball player in the field would go out and get Lasik surgery

But it doesnt have to be a shot to be a PED on the banned testing list. Theres plenty of things on the list that are 100 percent legal that you can buy at a GNC or such stores that triggers a positive test and theres also plenty of things that are prescribed by doctors in other countries that also trigger a positive.

It doesnt have to be an illegal substance to be considered a PED by sports and IOC testing standards

Lots of players do go out and get Lasik. Its an easy surgery to not be made public unless something goes wrong. Some of the players we do know had Lasik are Machado, Joc Pederson, Maddux, Lebron James, Tiger Woods, Wade Boggs, Kershaw, Ryan Zimmerman, Fred McGriff, Larry Walker and Jeff Bagwell

A number of top prospects have had it done as well. Theres nothing wrong with doing it, but its certainly a performance enhancer

bgr

Is lasik is maybe ok or maybe not ok. What would be definitely ok and what might be definitely not ok?

Basebal21

Anything legal should be fine whether its something at the store or a surgery. We should also be able to just enjoy how good guys like Bonds, Sosa, Clemens were without PEDs always coming up. Ortiz was actually suspended for PEDs and got into the HOF right away.

2001 Sosa and Bonds were incredibly special seasons

The one trend I am happy that seems to have died off iis the TJ surgery. There was a period where young pitchers in high school were basically getting elective stye TJ surgeries to throw harder. Fortunately that seems to have died off for the most part

JoeBanzai

This has to be one of the most ridiculous threads of all time.

Why don't we add coffee and tobacco to the PED list? Maybe even getting an extra hour of sleep the night before a game? How about getting a haircut before the big game? New shoes?

Here's a comparison for those here not entering the "Twilight Zone".

In dividing their careers into first half and second have performance, Mays, Mantle and Aaron's first half OPS numbers were Mays .976, Mantle. 994 and Aaron .943. Second half, Mays .899, Mantle .957 Aaron .912. An average decrease of 49 points.

Let's look at the 3 poster boys for steroids; Bonds went from .951 to 1.241 McGwire from .869 to 1.113 and Sosa from .777 to .977. An average increase of 245 points. Bonds increased by 290!

I agree that cheating is wrong, but if it doesn't lead to a significant increase in performance, your not surpassing players who aren't cheating.

The fact that Bonds, McGwire and Sosa (along with A-Rod) are all above Kilebrew on the all time HR list bothers me, especially Sosa, who for his first 1,100 games was little more than an average hitter.

1948_Swell_Robinson

@JoeBanzai said:
This has to be one of the most ridiculous threads of all time.

Why don't we add coffee and tobacco to the PED list? Maybe even getting an extra hour of sleep the night before a game? How about getting a haircut before the big game? New shoes?

Here's a comparison for those here not entering the "Twilight Zone".

In dividing their careers into first half and second have performance, Mays, Mantle and Aaron's first half OPS numbers were Mays .976, Mantle. 994 and Aaron .943. Second half, Mays .899, Mantle .957 Aaron .912. An average decrease of 49 points.

Let's look at the 3 poster boys for steroids; Bonds went from .951 to 1.241 McGwire from .869 to 1.113 and Sosa from .777 to .977. An average increase of 245 points. Bonds increased by 290!

I agree that cheating is wrong, but if it doesn't lead to a significant increase in performance, your not surpassing players who aren't cheating.

The fact that Bonds, McGwire and Sosa (along with A-Rod) are all above Kilebrew on the all time HR list bothers me, especially Sosa, who for his first 1,100 games was little more than an average hitter.

What would happen if all PED's were made legal?

Darin

JoeBanzai nails it!
After 4,000 at bats in mlb Sosa had an ops+ of 107. Now that’s a pretty large sample size. Basically 7 full years of at bats. Then starting in 1998 until the end of his career his ops+ is 149.
So without the juice Sosa would have been a good fit for swellrobinsons’ Gallo thread along with Balboni.
But swell and Craig pretend there was nothing wrong with the juice whores doing what they did.
It isn’t fair to Killebrew and a slew of other sluggers who didn’t juice.

1948_Swell_Robinson

@Darin said:
JoeBanzai nails it!
After 4,000 at bats in mlb Sosa had an ops+ of 107. Now that’s a pretty large sample size. Basically 7 full years of at bats. Then starting in 1998 until the end of his career his ops+ is 149.
So without the juice Sosa would have been a good fit for swellrobinsons’ Gallo thread along with Balboni.
But swell and Craig pretend there was nothing wrong with the juice whores doing what they did.
It isn’t fair to Killebrew and a slew of other sluggers who didn’t juice.

Sosa's uptick in OPS+ started in 1993, then jumped in 1994, which kind of mirrored the MLB league averages. He was also pretty young when he first started full time playing in MLB.

Age 21 in 1990- with a 92 OPS+. HIt 15 home runs at age 21. That isn't too bad as league average was 12 HR per 600 PA.
`1991-59...partial season
1992-98....partial season. Still combined for 18 home runs in '91-'92 in 578 at bats. Power was there.

1993-112 with 33 home runs. An uptick which mirrored the league.

1994-127 at age 25. Second big uptick which also mirrored the league. Then sustained this for a few years.
1995-122 wihh 36 home runs
1996-127 with 40 home runs
1997-90 He had a down year here but still hit 36 home runs so power wasn't gone.

1998-160 at age 29. The emergence of Sosa as we all knew him. It didn't happen overnight though.

Sosa was making growth yearly in different areas and overall. He was pretty young and raw when he started. He certainly had a live electric bat even at a young age in MLB. There was always visual potential there.

PS I never made a judgement for or against the PED in this thread.

JoeBanzai

@1948_Swell_Robinson said:

@JoeBanzai said:
This has to be one of the most ridiculous threads of all time.

Why don't we add coffee and tobacco to the PED list? Maybe even getting an extra hour of sleep the night before a game? How about getting a haircut before the big game? New shoes?

Here's a comparison for those here not entering the "Twilight Zone".

In dividing their careers into first half and second have performance, Mays, Mantle and Aaron's first half OPS numbers were Mays .976, Mantle. 994 and Aaron .943. Second half, Mays .899, Mantle .957 Aaron .912. An average decrease of 49 points.

Let's look at the 3 poster boys for steroids; Bonds went from .951 to 1.241 McGwire from .869 to 1.113 and Sosa from .777 to .977. An average increase of 245 points. Bonds increased by 290!

I agree that cheating is wrong, but if it doesn't lead to a significant increase in performance, your not surpassing players who aren't cheating.

The fact that Bonds, McGwire and Sosa (along with A-Rod) are all above Kilebrew on the all time HR list bothers me, especially Sosa, who for his first 1,100 games was little more than an average hitter.

What would happen if all PED's were made legal?

If they were made legal even more ham-and-eggers would put up huge numbers.

Great players who used them would eclipse the all time greats.

Here's a "what if" for you;

What if Ted Williams had juiced up and added another 20-30 pounds of muscle to his frame AND didn't miss time for 2 wars?

1,200 HR?

1948_Swell_Robinson

@JoeBanzai said:

@1948_Swell_Robinson said:

@JoeBanzai said:
This has to be one of the most ridiculous threads of all time.

Why don't we add coffee and tobacco to the PED list? Maybe even getting an extra hour of sleep the night before a game? How about getting a haircut before the big game? New shoes?

Here's a comparison for those here not entering the "Twilight Zone".

In dividing their careers into first half and second have performance, Mays, Mantle and Aaron's first half OPS numbers were Mays .976, Mantle. 994 and Aaron .943. Second half, Mays .899, Mantle .957 Aaron .912. An average decrease of 49 points.

Let's look at the 3 poster boys for steroids; Bonds went from .951 to 1.241 McGwire from .869 to 1.113 and Sosa from .777 to .977. An average increase of 245 points. Bonds increased by 290!

I agree that cheating is wrong, but if it doesn't lead to a significant increase in performance, your not surpassing players who aren't cheating.

The fact that Bonds, McGwire and Sosa (along with A-Rod) are all above Kilebrew on the all time HR list bothers me, especially Sosa, who for his first 1,100 games was little more than an average hitter.

What would happen if all PED's were made legal?

If they were made legal even more ham-and-eggers would put up huge numbers.

Great players who used them would eclipse the all time greats.

Here's a "what if" for you;

What if Ted Williams had another 20-30 pounds of muscle added to his frame AND didn't miss time for 2 wars?

1,200 HR?

I agree they benefit the players, I have always said that.

My question was what if they made them legal and everyone used them, would you still view Sosa as having an unfair advantage from his era and on forward?

JoeBanzai

@Darin said:
JoeBanzai nails it!
After 4,000 at bats in mlb Sosa had an ops+ of 107. Now that’s a pretty large sample size. Basically 7 full years of at bats. Then starting in 1998 until the end of his career his ops+ is 149.
So without the juice Sosa would have been a good fit for swellrobinsons’ Gallo thread along with Balboni.
But swell and Craig pretend there was nothing wrong with the juice whores doing what they did.
It isn’t fair to Killebrew and a slew of other sluggers who didn’t juice.

Not to mention the guys who played during the mutants time that didn't cheat, they lost out on records and money, but they kept their integrity!

1948_Swell_Robinson

@JoeBanzai said:

@1948_Swell_Robinson said:

@JoeBanzai said:
This has to be one of the most ridiculous threads of all time.

Why don't we add coffee and tobacco to the PED list? Maybe even getting an extra hour of sleep the night before a game? How about getting a haircut before the big game? New shoes?

Here's a comparison for those here not entering the "Twilight Zone".

In dividing their careers into first half and second have performance, Mays, Mantle and Aaron's first half OPS numbers were Mays .976, Mantle. 994 and Aaron .943. Second half, Mays .899, Mantle .957 Aaron .912. An average decrease of 49 points.

Let's look at the 3 poster boys for steroids; Bonds went from .951 to 1.241 McGwire from .869 to 1.113 and Sosa from .777 to .977. An average increase of 245 points. Bonds increased by 290!

I agree that cheating is wrong, but if it doesn't lead to a significant increase in performance, your not surpassing players who aren't cheating.

The fact that Bonds, McGwire and Sosa (along with A-Rod) are all above Kilebrew on the all time HR list bothers me, especially Sosa, who for his first 1,100 games was little more than an average hitter.

What would happen if all PED's were made legal?

If they were made legal even more ham-and-eggers would put up huge numbers.

Great players who used them would eclipse the all time greats.

Here's a "what if" for you;

What if Ted Williams had juiced up and added another 20-30 pounds of muscle to his frame AND didn't miss time for 2 wars?

1,200 HR?

The question I have always been after is what caused the league to jump in offense in 1993 a little bit, and then exploded in 1994 seemingly overnight (and then sustain that explosion)?

Either everyone started taking steroids before 1994 or the ball was juiced.

Certainly there was a combination of many taking PED's but that isn't the only explanation for the uptick.

1948_Swell_Robinson

@JoeBanzai said:

@Darin said:
JoeBanzai nails it!
After 4,000 at bats in mlb Sosa had an ops+ of 107. Now that’s a pretty large sample size. Basically 7 full years of at bats. Then starting in 1998 until the end of his career his ops+ is 149.
So without the juice Sosa would have been a good fit for swellrobinsons’ Gallo thread along with Balboni.
But swell and Craig pretend there was nothing wrong with the juice whores doing what they did.
It isn’t fair to Killebrew and a slew of other sluggers who didn’t juice.

Not to mention the guys who played during the mutants time that didn't cheat, they lost out on records and money, but they kept their integrity!

Another interesting aspect. If Derek Jeter didn't juice and he is being compared to a league full of juicers, then Jeter should have a better claim as being a GOAT SS.

Especially when you consider the defensiive metrics have already unfairly punished Jeter.

JoeBanzai

@1948_Swell_Robinson said:

My question was what if they made them legal and everyone used them, would you still view Sosa as having an unfair advantage from his era and on forward?

>
>
>
Of course not, but if they had been legal, other, better players probably would have had even bigger years.

After 8 FULL seasons he was nothing special, a 107 OPS+ is what he was, then BOOM, the next 5 it's 167!

Please find me any "clean" MLB player who had numbers like that.

Almost every great player (before steroids) very quickly achieved a level of productivity and generally speaking, stayed at that level until they got old.

Sosa was just not a great player without the juice.

dallasactuary

@1948_Swell_Robinson said:

Sosa's uptick in OPS+ started in 1993, then jumped in 1994, which kind of mirrored the MLB league averages.

I'm going to stay miles away from the absurd PEDS=Lasik nonsense, but I'm not sure what you're trying to say here. There is no such thing as an increase in MLB OPS+ average, since the average OPS+ is always 100, by definition. Sosa was 7% better than an average MLB hitter, then, despite the average MLB hitter getting better largely due to cheating, Sosa became 49% better than an average MLB hitter.

Glorify Sosa and Bonds for cheating better than anyone else to your heart's content but I never have, don't now, and never will want any part of it. Because I'm a baseball fan, and this issue is one on which 100% of us are united.

1948_Swell_Robinson

@dallasactuary said:

@1948_Swell_Robinson said:

Sosa's uptick in OPS+ started in 1993, then jumped in 1994, which kind of mirrored the MLB league averages.

I'm going to stay miles away from the absurd PEDS=Lasik nonsense, but I'm not sure what you're trying to say here. There is no such thing as an increase in MLB OPS+ average, since the average OPS+ is always 100, by definition. Sosa was 7% better than an average MLB hitter, then, despite the average MLB hitter getting better largely due to cheating, Sosa became 49% better than an average MLB hitter.

Glorify Sosa and Bonds for cheating better than anyone else to your heart's content but I never have, don't now, and never will want any part of it. Because I'm a baseball fan, and this issue is one on which 100% of us are united.

Who is going to benefit more from a juiced ball or body armor or fences that were moved in?

Sammy Sosa or Felix Fermin?

If all those factors other than PED are influencing some hitters more than others, then even if the whole league is seeing an increase some are benefitting more than others when being compared against each other.

JoeBanzai

@1948_Swell_Robinson said:

@JoeBanzai said:

@Darin said:
JoeBanzai nails it!
After 4,000 at bats in mlb Sosa had an ops+ of 107. Now that’s a pretty large sample size. Basically 7 full years of at bats. Then starting in 1998 until the end of his career his ops+ is 149.
So without the juice Sosa would have been a good fit for swellrobinsons’ Gallo thread along with Balboni.
But swell and Craig pretend there was nothing wrong with the juice whores doing what they did.
It isn’t fair to Killebrew and a slew of other sluggers who didn’t juice.

Not to mention the guys who played during the mutants time that didn't cheat, they lost out on records and money, but they kept their integrity!

Another interesting aspect. If Derek Jeter didn't juice and he is being compared to a league full of juicers, then Jeter should have a better claim as being a GOAT SS.

Especially when you consider the defensiive metrics have already unfairly punished Jeter.

You sure like to fly all over the place. "League full of juicers" let's try to stick with what we know.

Jeter seemed to be always beating my Twins in the playoffs, but I would say Ripken was better.

Now, it looks to me that a guy like Fred McGriff got hurt (if he was in fact "clean") by Bonds' juicing. He had some great seasons overshadowed by Barry.

1948_Swell_Robinson

@JoeBanzai said:

@1948_Swell_Robinson said:

@JoeBanzai said:

@Darin said:
JoeBanzai nails it!
After 4,000 at bats in mlb Sosa had an ops+ of 107. Now that’s a pretty large sample size. Basically 7 full years of at bats. Then starting in 1998 until the end of his career his ops+ is 149.
So without the juice Sosa would have been a good fit for swellrobinsons’ Gallo thread along with Balboni.
But swell and Craig pretend there was nothing wrong with the juice whores doing what they did.
It isn’t fair to Killebrew and a slew of other sluggers who didn’t juice.

Not to mention the guys who played during the mutants time that didn't cheat, they lost out on records and money, but they kept their integrity!

Another interesting aspect. If Derek Jeter didn't juice and he is being compared to a league full of juicers, then Jeter should have a better claim as being a GOAT SS.

Especially when you consider the defensiive metrics have already unfairly punished Jeter.

You sure like to fly all over the place. "League full of juicers" let's try to stick with what we know.

Jeter seemed to be always beating my Twins in the playoffs, but I would say Ripken was better.

Now, it looks to me that a guy like Fred McGriff got hurt (if he was in fact "clean") by Bonds' juicing. He had some great seasons overshadowed by Barry.

Then what caused the league to go from a .700 OPS in 1992 all the way up to a .763 in 1994?

Either the whole league was on the juice or there were other major factors affecting everyone, and even if you didn't take the juice, you should have seen a big increase in production.

So then what was Sosa's jump from 1992 to 1994 from?

So what made everyone increase their offense from 1992 compared to 1994? The whole league must have been on juice. If not, then why was Sosa immune from having an increase in production outside of PED'? Sosa should have also seen a 'clean' increase in production like everyone else as well.

1948_Swell_Robinson

Sosa as a rookie was already a legit HR hitter with an electric bat. He hit home runs at a better rate than the league average hitter and he was only 21 with no discipline as a hitter. Raw and electric.

This is a time when hitting mechanics were evolving. Loads. Swing planes.

Later, Jose Bautista and Josh Donaldson both made mechanical adjustments to include more upper cuts on their swings and it paid off. They went' agains that old baseball grain of "swing level" and they improved greatly!

Sosa also made mechancial adjustments in his hands and load from 1997 to 1998. Keep in mind that even though sabermetrically that Sosa was not as good a hitter from 1994 to 1997 as he was from 1998-2003, he had already become a legit HR hitter.

From 1994 to 1997 Sosa was averaging 40 Home Runs per 162 games.

The notion that Sosa changed overnight is wrong. As laid out above there was an incrimental increase in his raw HR power and his sabermetric hitting.

From 1997 to 1998 Sosa took another big increase in hitting. He wasn't any more buff in 1998 compared to 1997 but he got a ton better. If he was taking steroids in 1998 he was certainly taking them in 1997.

Here is a pretty good examination of some changes he made from his rookie year, 1997, and to 1998:

Look at Sosa's first career home run. Higher hands. Not much of a power load. Small lift and step forward. Notice how the announcers remark how more home runs are expected. He did not have a good power swing and had no discipline either.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PcCbjt-wgPQ

Here is Sosa in 1997 as a legit elite HR hitter already at the MLB level and a consistent 125 OPS+ guy. His swing is not much different from his rookie year: Still has those high wagging hands, small left and small step forward.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PIggxqFglZA&t=7s

Then he noticeably changed his his load to a reverse toe tap load to help him really stay back and to generate more power. He also held his hands noticeably lower which helped him with a more consisten swing plane especially on pitches lower in the strike zone.

That is a far different and more modern swing than when he was a rookie and even from the couple years before. This swing helped him generate more power than just a couple years prior and stay back on balls much better.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jgAieWcS3EE

It was not just steroids.

dallasactuary

@1948_Swell_Robinson said:
Sosa should have also seen a 'clean' increase in production like everyone else as well.

I suspect you're just being obtuse, but even so you run the risk that someone here will take this seriously. Had Sosa gotten the 'clean' increase everyone else got, his OPS+ would have remained at 107. What baseball fans are pointing to is Sosa getting such a larger increase than the rest of the league did. The answer, obviously, is that he was cheating on a massive scale while the rest of the league wasn't. It's an obvious answer to baseball fans, anyway.

It's a shame PSA doesn't have a "Pharmaceuticals" forum to discuss Sosa and Bonds and the others. Talking about them in a "Sports Talk" forum is just wrong.

1948_Swell_Robinson

@dallasactuary said:

@1948_Swell_Robinson said:
Sosa should have also seen a 'clean' increase in production like everyone else as well.

I suspect you're just being obtuse, but even so you run the risk that someone here will take this seriously. Had Sosa gotten the 'clean' increase everyone else got, his OPS+ would have remained at 107. What baseball fans are pointing to is Sosa getting such a larger increase than the rest of the league did. The answer, obviously, is that he was cheating on a massive scale while the rest of the league wasn't. It's an obvious answer to baseball fans, anyway.

It's a shame PSA doesn't have a "Pharmaceuticals" forum to discuss Sosa and Bonds and the others. Talking about them in a "Sports Talk" forum is just wrong.

If a livelier ball is introduced and the fences are moved in 15 feet closer, do you not believe that a guy who hits the ball in the air more and consistently further already, will be helped more than a guy who chops the ball into the ground and bunts a lot?

Also, see my post above about Sosa's swing changes. When that player also then changes his swing to really take advantage of that, like Sosa did in 1998 it helps even more.

dallasactuary

@1948_Swell_Robinson said:
When that player also then changes his swing to really take advantage of that, like Sosa did in 1998 it helps even more.

You know what helps even more? Cheating.