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1879S GTG Revealed

Morgan13Morgan13 Posts: 901 ✭✭✭✭✭
edited March 30, 2024 7:43AM in U.S. Coin Forum

New purchase.
Can you guess the grade?

Student of numismatics and collector of Morgan dollars
Successful BST transactions with: Namvet Justindan Mattniss RWW olah_in_MA

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    telephoto1telephoto1 Posts: 4,751 ✭✭✭✭✭

    66


    RIP Mom- 1932-2012
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    jfriedm56jfriedm56 Posts: 847 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I hate going first. MS66+

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    coinbufcoinbuf Posts: 10,771 ✭✭✭✭✭

    66PL

    My Lincoln Registry
    My Collection of Old Holders

    Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.
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    jp84jp84 Posts: 184 ✭✭✭

    65

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    blitzdudeblitzdude Posts: 5,464 ✭✭✭✭✭

    65PL RGDS!

    The whole worlds off its rocker, buy Gold™.

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    nwcoastnwcoast Posts: 2,845 ✭✭✭✭✭

    66 is my guess.
    Cool coin with lots of die polish action.

    Happy, humble, honored and proud recipient of the “You Suck” award 10/22/2014

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    relicsncoinsrelicsncoins Posts: 7,860 ✭✭✭✭✭

    66, some serious die polish lines. I'm going to guess it just barely missed PL.

    Need a Barber Half with ANACS photo certificate. If you have one for sale please PM me. Current Ebay auctions
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    braddickbraddick Posts: 23,127 ✭✭✭✭✭

    67

    peacockcoins

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    I'd say MS-66 PL

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    DelawareDoonsDelawareDoons Posts: 3,254 ✭✭✭✭✭

    66+, spot in front of face keeps it from 7. 7 wouldn't shock me though, obviously.

    Professional Numismatist. "It's like God, Family, Country, except Sticker, Plastic, Coin."

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    jesbrokenjesbroken Posts: 9,318 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Nice! 66pl
    Jim


    When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln

    Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
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    ElKevvoElKevvo Posts: 4,064 ✭✭✭✭✭

    66

    K

    ANA LM
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    Manifest_DestinyManifest_Destiny Posts: 3,733 ✭✭✭✭✭

    66

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    AlanSkiAlanSki Posts: 1,829 ✭✭✭✭✭

    66 star

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    U1chicagoU1chicago Posts: 5,619 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I'll say MS 66+....I think it just missed being a 67

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    U1chicagoU1chicago Posts: 5,619 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @jfriedm56 said:
    I hate going first. MS66+

    It's a good thing you were second then. :D

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    SmudgeSmudge Posts: 9,257 ✭✭✭✭✭

    66

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    HillbillyCollectorHillbillyCollector Posts: 516 ✭✭✭✭✭

    65PL

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    cheezhedcheezhed Posts: 5,690 ✭✭✭✭✭

    66

    Many happy BST transactions
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    lkeneficlkenefic Posts: 7,831 ✭✭✭✭✭

    66PL... beautiful!

    Collecting: Dansco 7070; Middle Date Large Cents (VF-AU); Box of 20;

    Successful BST transactions with: SilverEagles92; Ahrensdad; Smitty; GregHansen; Lablade; Mercury10c; copperflopper; whatsup; KISHU1; scrapman1077, crispy, canadanz, smallchange, robkool, Mission16, ranshdow, ibzman350, Fallguy, Collectorcoins, SurfinxHI, jwitten, Walkerguy21D, dsessom.
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    jfriedm56jfriedm56 Posts: 847 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @U1chicago said:

    @jfriedm56 said:
    I hate going first. MS66+

    It's a good thing you were second then. :D

    Ha,ha, that first guess wasn't there when I put my guess down. Really- wouldn't have said that if it was there.

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    Namvet69Namvet69 Posts: 8,676 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I'll say 67 although the amount of polishing lines might prevent PL. IMO

    BST: endeavor1967, synchr, kliao, Outhaul, Donttellthewife, U1Chicago, ajaan, mCarney1173, SurfinHi, MWallace, Sandman70gt, mustanggt, Pittstate03, Lazybones, Walkerguy21D, coinandcurrency242 , thebigeng, Collectorcoins, JimTyler, USMarine6, Elkevvo, Coll3ctor, Yorkshireman, CUKevin, ranshdow, CoinHunter4, bennybravo, Centsearcher, braddick, Windycity, ZoidMeister, mirabela, JJM, RichURich, Bullsitter, jmski52, LukeMarshall

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    gumby1234gumby1234 Posts: 5,428 ✭✭✭✭✭

    67 DMPL

    Successful BST with ad4400, Kccoin, lablover, pointfivezero, koynekwest, jwitten, coin22lover, HalfDimeDude, erwindoc, jyzskowsi, COINS MAKE CENTS, AlanSki, BryceM

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    Morgan13Morgan13 Posts: 901 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Student of numismatics and collector of Morgan dollars
    Successful BST transactions with: Namvet Justindan Mattniss RWW olah_in_MA

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    jfriedm56jfriedm56 Posts: 847 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @U1chicago said:

    @jfriedm56 said:
    I hate going first. MS66+

    It's a good thing you were second then. :D

    I hate going 2nd too! I'll wait from now on.

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    jesbrokenjesbroken Posts: 9,318 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Nice grade. Congrats.
    Jim


    When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln

    Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
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    U1chicagoU1chicago Posts: 5,619 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @jfriedm56 said:

    @U1chicago said:

    @jfriedm56 said:
    I hate going first. MS66+

    It's a good thing you were second then. :D

    I hate going 2nd too! I'll wait from now on.

    I guessed the same so I don’t think going near the end was much help either. :D

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    Morgan13Morgan13 Posts: 901 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 30, 2024 9:15AM

    I went to the Manchester NH show yesterday which is where I purchased this coin. I really do like polish lines. I'm sure they are not for everyone but I like them.
    I was looking for an MS68.
    I found one on tue floor and it did not look 68. I could see very light contact marks and the cheeck had a few contact marks as well.
    This coin looked better to me that the 68 and at almost half the cost.
    I'm not afraid to pay up for a coin that's nice.

    Student of numismatics and collector of Morgan dollars
    Successful BST transactions with: Namvet Justindan Mattniss RWW olah_in_MA

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    anablepanablep Posts: 5,032 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Love the look of that 79-S.

    I was going to say 66 but 67⭐️ is even better!

    Always looking for attractive rim toned Morgan and Peace dollars in PCGS or (older) ANA/ANACS holders!

    "Bongo hurtles along the rain soaked highway of life on underinflated bald retread tires."


    ~Wayne
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    gumby1234gumby1234 Posts: 5,428 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Is it PL or DMPL on one side? Sometimes that will get a * added. At least I got the 67 part right. Nice coin

    Successful BST with ad4400, Kccoin, lablover, pointfivezero, koynekwest, jwitten, coin22lover, HalfDimeDude, erwindoc, jyzskowsi, COINS MAKE CENTS, AlanSki, BryceM

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    Morgan13Morgan13 Posts: 901 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @gumby1234 said:
    Is it PL or DMPL on one side? Sometimes that will get a * added. At least I got the 67 part right. Nice coin

    The obverse is DMPL but the reverse is covered with polish lines. The strike and immaculate surfaces sold me on this coin.
    Just a nice well rounded coin.
    To me it looks 68. Just my opinion.

    Student of numismatics and collector of Morgan dollars
    Successful BST transactions with: Namvet Justindan Mattniss RWW olah_in_MA

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    coinkatcoinkat Posts: 22,795 ✭✭✭✭✭

    The reverse has issues beneath the right wing- die polish can and should be easily explained. The hit beneath the wing is problematic at this grade level.

    The initial obverse picture looks different than the picture posted later that revealed the grade. I am not trying to be more difficult than usual, but at a certain grade level we are grading images and not the coin which is problematic.

    I like the coin- I have doubts about the grade without seeing it in hand. And yes, the obverse carries the grade and the reverse goes along for the ride but the reverse can basically only lower the grade. And that is the issue that I see here.

    Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.

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    coinkatcoinkat Posts: 22,795 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 30, 2024 1:31PM

    And for those of you who doubt my take on this, consider exhibit A that was graded PL62+ by our host. Then ask yourself which coin you would rather have...

    Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.

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    Morgan13Morgan13 Posts: 901 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @coinkat said:
    The reverse has issues beneath the right wing- die polish can and should be easily explained. The hit beneath the wing is problematic at this grade level.

    The initial obverse picture looks different than the picture posted later that revealed the grade. I am not trying to be more difficult than usual, but at a certain grade level we are grading images and not the coin which is problematic.

    I like the coin- I have doubts about the grade without seeing it in hand. And yes, the obverse carries the grade and the reverse goes along for the ride but the reverse can basically only lower the grade. And that is the issue that I see here.

    Thanks for the compliment.
    I happen to really like the coin for the grade.
    I've seen 68's that had more issues than this coin.
    I have had the pleasure of assessing the grade in hand and despite your comments I really like it.
    I could never, well never-ending. It's not worth it.

    Student of numismatics and collector of Morgan dollars
    Successful BST transactions with: Namvet Justindan Mattniss RWW olah_in_MA

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    Morgan13Morgan13 Posts: 901 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @coinkat said:

    And for those of you who doubt my take on this, consider exhibit A that was graded PL62+ by our host. Then ask yourself which coin you would rather have...

    What the heck?
    I don't understand what your trying to say here.
    PCGS must have seen something wrong with your coin to give it the dreaded MS62 grade. It looks nice to me but PCGS obviously didn't agree.
    Not to mention that it's not a Morgan either.

    Student of numismatics and collector of Morgan dollars
    Successful BST transactions with: Namvet Justindan Mattniss RWW olah_in_MA

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    coinkatcoinkat Posts: 22,795 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Morgan13

    It is a Guatemala 1816 8 Reales- the grade is PL62+. It is not a Morgan , but I thought this worked as a more effective prop to illustrate my points as to grading- and all that goes along with the thought process and analysis. I could have posted a 1904 or an 1891 Morgan. I would hope that most serious Morgan Collectors know and appreciate all dates within the series range significantly in quality. The 1879-s, 80-s and 81-s are among the finest - if not the finest. And at various grades and at the same grade, an 1879-s will just look better that either an 1891 0r 1904- that is just how it is.

    I would not have bothered to respond to this thread if I did not see the second obverse image. I like the coin.

    My points are simply:

    -Grading is subjective. However, with that subjectivity there comes an expectation for the grade, for the date and for the series. Simply put not all coins at the same grade level are created equal. And it is not standards as much as expectations that matter.

    -In this instance, we have your coin which is likely in the top 99% in terms of condition as to the entire surviving population. By that measure, one could easily assert it is a condition rarity. Now if we change the measurement to surviving population at the grade, it is less clear- certainly a nice coin, but one that can be found.

    We have die polish and PL surfaces on both the 79-s and 1816. There is a well defined expectation as to what a MS67/68 or PL67/68 79-s should look like. We know this based the surviving population at those grades. And there still is a margin of subjectivity involved based on die polish- which should be neutral but usually is not at the higher end of the grading spectrum- size and location of the slightest bagmarks and how pronounced they appear. And the slightest imperfect on PL surfaces is usually magnified to look much worse than it really might be.

    So what about standards and expectations for the 1816 8R? This is the only one graded as a PL by our host. But in all farness, there could be others that might grade PL but that designation may not have been available at the time prior coins were submitted. The 1816 8R very easily could have graded higher and in my view, it should have. Simply put, there are no well defined expectations for the 1816- but the first impression is to suggest that there is a problem with the coin- instead of the expectations for such a rarity.

    The idea of using this coin as a prop illustrates how certain Morgan Dollars get a bump. Those with PL or DMPL surfaces that sustained bag marks based on how they were handled. CC Morgans clearly get the benefit of the doubt. But that doubt is created by the expectations that have been set over time and are part of the subjectivity. So understanding subjectivity in grading is critical for any coin... and any series. I see the reverse on your 79-s as limiting the grade. The reverse on the 1816 is likely one of finest surviving PL reverses within the series. The 1816 did not get a bump for the reverse and we pretty much accept that the reverse can only hurt the grade. Further the 1816 reflects incredible craftsmanship for the time in terms of the die prep- and this seems to have missed the expectations entirely.

    So the question of which coin would you rather have was asked in an effort to get collectors here to think more about rarity, condition rarity, the subjective nature of grading and how die polish/die prep and PL surfaces and how the coin was handled and survived over time.

    Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.

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