8 reales Cundinamarca 1821. Contemporary counterfeit ?
genosse
Posts: 70 ✭✭✭
Hello, friends!
Several times on eBay, an 8 reales Cundinamarca 1821 coin was offered for sale.
I believe this is a contemporary counterfeit (not a modern fake).
Here's what seems suspicious to me:
1. the portrait on the suspicious coin has 15 feathers in its hair (the real coin has 16 feathers)
2. an Adam’s apple on the neck of a portrait of a suspicious coin (the real coin in Colombia was called “china”. This is the nickname of a young Indian woman. Therefore, of course, there is no Adam’s apple on the neck of the genuine coin.)
3. the portrait of a suspicious coin has a long nose (on a genuine coin the portrait has a small nose)
4. on a genuine coin in the portrait there is a strand of hair (like a sideburn) next to the ear. The suspicious coin does not have such a strand of hair.
Jorge Emilio Restrepo, the author of the catalog of Colombian coins, also considers such a coin to be fake. But it does not specify whether it is a contemporary counterfeit or a modern fake.
What is your opinion ? 
Fac quod debes, fiat quod fiet
Comments
Certainly. As I'm guessing you know, there are quite a few contemporary counterfeits of the 1821 8R out there - you can often tell simply by the look of the metal/alloy before even comparing design elements.
Agree with the above.
8 Reales Madness Collection
They knew something was up even then (note the test cut):
I don't quite agree with you.
In 10 years of studying contemporary counterfeits, I have only seen 3 photographs of counterfeits of the 8 reales of Cundinamarca 1821 (thank you very much for the fourth photograph!).
At the same time, genuine coins of 8 reales of Cundinamarca have a silver purity of 0.666. And it is quite difficult to distinguish a counterfeit from a genuine coin “simply by the look of the metal/alloy”. Unless the counterfeit is made of copper.
But it’s very easy to spot a contemporary counterfeit by “comparing design elements”.
Fac quod debes, fiat quod fiet
Excellent piece!
Is this your coin?
Can you do hydrostatic weighing?
I would like to know what metal it is made of - silver or copper-nickel?
This type of counterfeits are very similar to genuine coins.
I have a version that such contemporary counterfeits were made in the USA.
Perhaps these counterfeits were used to pay customs duties when transporting goods across the Isthmus of Panama.
Fac quod debes, fiat quod fiet
It looks like massive industrial issue. And it's really interesting to know the metal composition. I wouldn’t be surprised if the coins are made with low grade silver. We know the general Santander's issue on 1823-26 contrary to the law on silver content.
Peace.
In fact, the original 8 reales coins of Cundinamarca were contemporary counterfeits. That is, in fact, it is “credit money” where the denomination of the coin is higher than the value of the precious metal in it.
Fac quod debes, fiat quod fiet
@genosse
No, I don't own that piece. Saved the pic as it was a quality pic of a clear example.
I think the piece I posted, by the way, is definitely an example where the look of the metal is an immediate hint, even compared to the lower grade silver alloy of the "legitimate" issues... it jumps out to me as "white metal" immediately. It's similar to, say, the typical "falsas" of the 1819 Caracas 2R (I cringe seeing so many of those slabbed as genuine), the fairly common 1839 Colombia 8R counterfeit and many of the 1830 Bolivia 4S counterfeits. I would say the same for the middle 1821 example you posted above.
I'm sure the piece I posted and the middle piece you posted would both be shown to be primarily copper-nickel or other "white metal" alloy, perhaps with a small amount of silver mixed in.
I'm doing a quick eBay archive search as I type... Here's another example - again, the coloration of the alloy is a dead giveaway:
Now on the other hand, here's another example of the same type, this from Heritage in 2008. In this case, the alloy DOES look like it could contain a decent amount of silver or perhaps even more copper - some mixture more susceptible to toning than "white metal". Nice "toning shadow" radiating out from the legend lettering:
https://coins.ha.com/itm/colombia/colombia-republic-cundinamarca-8-reales-1821-jf-bogota-/a/3000-51191.s?ic4=ListView-ShortDescription-071515
Have they sold it like original coin? I think the circulation of this type was about 2000-3000, judging by the frequency of its occurrence.
Does anybody have the edge's photo?
Peace.
Just as curiosity went to that HA link, that coin was not sold.
They have an small ? interrogation symbol icon, with the possible reasons:
Not Sold
This indicates an item that did not sell at auction either because it did not receive bids equal to or greater than the reserve (minimum bid) amount set by the consignor, or because the sale was canceled.
HTH
Thank you for photos !
By the way, since you yourself remembered them.
I know counterfeits 8 reales type "Culebrilla" from 1839, 1840 and 1846. Have you seen counterfeits from other years?
Fac quod debes, fiat quod fiet
Those are the only CC dates I've seen as well. I recall that 1846 from MA-Shops a few years back... neat piece but I couldn't pull the trigger at that price. Did you grab it?
Have only seen that same variety of 1839 contemp. ctfeit. - at least four other examples. I've seen two other 1840 examples... one in an NGC holder (amusingly, I believe it was called it a pattern) and another I apparently bought (?!), but for some reason I only have an obverse pic saved. I had THOUGHT they were two different types, but now comparing all three, I'm questioning myself - the coins' condition and/or photo quality are not ideal. I AM fairly certain the example you showed and the piece in the NGC holder ARE the same dies, but not sure about the 3rd piece, especially without the reverse photo (and I have no idea where it is!).
I've also seen one of a 1847 type - shown below.
I did not buy this coin.
I spent too long choosing and now I can only admire photographs of other people’s coins.
By the way, don’t you think that prices for counterfeits have become completely crazy?
What do you think about this price for Riddell #356?
Fac quod debes, fiat quod fiet
I read a publication about this 1840 contemporary counterfeit.
This counterfeit was made by counterfeiter Barbaro Lince from the Colombian province of Antioquia.
It's not often you can find out the name of the "main character", isn't it?))))))
Fac quod debes, fiat quod fiet
I also saw a photo of this counterfeit.
It is strange that a coin of this denomination was counterfeited. I have never seen counterfeits of 10 reales coins from 1847-48
Fac quod debes, fiat quod fiet
I don't know if contemporary counterfeits of any Colombian denomination really surprise me much. What's strange about the 1847 piece is just how crude an imitation it is.
The only thing sort of similar for a 10 Reales I've seen is one of the imitative button types:
I saw that result! I didn't follow the bidding before it sold, so I don't know if it was 2 bidders who stupidly just put "nuclear" pre-bids and this was the result... or if (2) people actually kept hitting the BID button during Live bidding when the lot came up. Either way, that was total insanity - I think this was one of those results where you just shake your head, don't try to figure out it and ignore it as an outlier.
There are some very devoted CC Cap & Ray collectors out there... but not THAT devoted!! (I don't think??)
It depends only on the skill of the engraver.
The 1840 copper counterfeit is very similar to the genuine coin.
Probably transfer dies were used to make it.
Unlike the counterfeits of other years and the 1847 piece, where they clearly used a hand-engraved dies.
Fac quod debes, fiat quod fiet
By the way, Jorge Emilio Restrepo shows in his catalog of Colombian coins a 4 reales coin from 1819.
This coin has the same counterfeit features as the 1821 8 reales coin shown above.
The coin weighs 11.7 grams and therefore its denomination was determined to be 4 reales.
Although the denomination on the coin has been worn off, the diameter of the coin (34 mm) is close to the diameter of the 8 reales coin (37 mm)/
In addition, 4 reales coins were not minted in Colombia at that time.
Perhaps this is another counterfeit.
Fac quod debes, fiat quod fiet
Great thread genosse. I've seen some suspicious Cundinamarca pieces over the past few years (especially that one you noted that kept showing up on Ebay) and this thread has been very interesting.
I've been collecting 8 reales counterfeits for a few years now... the prices don't seem universally crazy to me but people definitely will bid up rare/high quality counterfeits like the Riddell shown.
However, the madness continues))))))
Fac quod debes, fiat quod fiet
I wonder if people are just messing with the seller at this point. Not sure how else the same coin is sold from the same seller three or four separate times within months and ends on a completely irrational price.
If it's centsless - there might be some fu$-#ry happening
8 Reales Madness Collection
Peeking back at eBay recents...