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High grade PCI slab Morgan--will it cross?
logger7
Posts: 8,096 ✭✭✭✭✭
I realize this coin was something of a crapshoot when I bought it from an indoor flea market vendor. Do you think it would cross and at what grade?
My estimate is at least MS66 as the coin is clean.
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Looks like too much chatter for a 67 on the cheek and could be as low as a 65. Hard to tell any more by the photos. Id say dont crack it out!
I'm told PCI was too strict. 68 all day.
Kidding aside, 65.
That is a later generation PCI slab (not the original green label that were considered stricter). By this point the grades were considered loose (although they could still get it right occasionally). Given that the picture is hard to read and knowing the history of the holder, I would guess MS 64 with a chance at MS 65.
Here are the first PCGS MS66 coins that came up on Coinfacts:
https://coins.ha.com/itm/morgan-dollars/1879-s-1-ms66-pcgs-cac-pcgs-population-8356-1968-ngc-census-7793-2442-cdn-300-whsle-bid-for-ngc-pcgs-ms66-mi/a/60349-50261.s?ic16=ViewItem-Auction-Archive-PreviousPricesHeritage-081514
https://coins.ha.com/itm/morgan-dollars/1879-s-1-ms66-pcgs-pcgs-population-8357-1958-ngc-census-7722-2350-cdn-295-whsle-bid-for-ngc-pcgs-ms66-mintage/a/132325-25317.s?ic4=ListView-ShortDescription-071515
The Green 10 digit PCI cert started the loose grading era. The stricter graded Green PCI holders with that font had 14 digit certs.
And here are NGC MS66 coins that come up on Coinfacts:
https://coins.ha.com/itm/morgan-dollars/1879-s-1-vam-26-ms66-ngc-ngc-census-7794-2448-pcgs-population-8351-1966-cdn-300-whsle-bid-for-ngc-pcgs-ms66-m/a/63254-92447.s?ic4=ListView-ShortDescription-071515
https://auctions.stacksbowers.com/lots/view/3-13M6AK/1879-s-morgan-silver-dollar-ms-66-ngc
https://auctions.stacksbowers.com/lots/view/3-13E79Y/1879-s-morgan-silver-dollar-ms-66-ngc
https://auctions.stacksbowers.com/lots/view/3-13M6AW/1879-s-morgan-silver-dollar-ms-66-ngc
https://coins.ha.com/itm/morgan-dollars/1879-s-1-ms66-ngc-ngc-census-7697-2324-pcgs-population-8352-1944-cdn-295-whsle-bid-for-ngc-pcgs-ms66-mintage/a/132321-27485.s?ic4=ListView-ShortDescription-071515
To answer the question asked
No
Mike
My Indians
Danco Set
No, as it looks like an MS65. And posting pictures of PCGS and NGC coins in MS66 holders wont influence me.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Then where is objective grading? Apples with apples, what Coinfacts is for, not a sort of bias based on the holder and when the coin was graded. Do you believe that the first coins that came up on Coinfacts in PCGS and NGC holder are all superior to the PCI coin, and if so why?
It was a joke, based on the other thread.
No one mentioned the holder but me. Sorry. It was a joke based on the other thread.
You asked what we thought. The consensus seems to be 65. But send it in. Only way to be sure. Grading from photos is rarely definitive. It could sneak into a 66 if the chatter we're seeing isn't obvious in hand.
I think it's real, so I think it will cross at some grade, but not at 67.
I'd say 65 is more likely than 66, but I think it could have a shot at 66. It's really hard to tell from those images (or any images really).
And I don't say it has a shot because of some of the 66 images posted later, because we've all seen worse. It appears to have Gem surfaces, and that could fit 65 or 66 in my mind.
“We are only their care-takers,” he posed, “if we take good care of them, then centuries from now they may still be here … ”
Todd - BHNC #242
Just giving info to those that might wonder about the holder.
I give it a 66.
Nice looking coin
Best of luck
I believe I have a good feel for your coin because the photos show lustre well, and with it, enough chatter to think 67 will never happen and 66 might be high, too (for that, I need bigger and better photos). The PCGS and NGC photos you showed are severely lacking and little can be gleaned from them. Outside of a screaming low price where I really couldn’t lose, I would never buy a coin with photos like that and no other information because the photos are worthless.
I'd request PCGS currate the reverse.
Looks GEM (MS65) to me.
Shot 66 if the reverse isn't as muted as it appears in your photo.
peacockcoins
65 tops.
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars
Your question "will it cross" yes 100% I think it will cross as an MS65. Bty, finding some subpar examples to try and sway the jury is a newbie move, you are better than that.
My Collection of Old Holders
Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.
I like how some members that have in the past said "It's hard to judge a coin by using images" are now ganging up to "trash" your PCI coin from your images logger.
I'd gladly pay you for what you paid for it even though I'm not a Morgan fan. I think it will easily go 66 if not more.
Not true at all.
I don't know how long you've been in the business but let me ask you some questions. PCI used a red label for problem coins. Over the years I worked there we sent out several thousand problem slabs.
Not true based on what? My personal experience and experience of those on this board over the years substantially confirms the 10-digit green holders tend to be overgraded by 2 points or more vs PCGS standards. If you are thinking of the earlier PCI green holders with the old font, those had 9 digit certs.
I found this article from 2015 - although the cert numbers were not specified, it is highly likely they had 10 digits:
https://news.coinupdate.com/crossover-reality-check-old-green-pci-holders-4898/
FWIW, based on the photos, I think the coin looks like a nice 65, but a bit too much chatter for a 66 (maybe 65+). I hope the OP only paid 65 money or less for the coin.
I didn't refer to this as a problem coin. Looks 65 to me, maybe 66 if the chatter is less obvious in hand. I never indicated a problem coin. But it doesn't look 67 to me.
A lot of early ANACS and PCI coins crossed over in the last 30 years. A lot of PCGS and NGC coins also cracked out and regraded also. See the other thread for the purported reason why.
I acknowledged the image problem on this thread. But if you ask us to offer an opinion based on a photo, you have to expect an opinion based on the photo. I hardly think calling it a 65, maybe 66, is "trashing" the coin.
Ironically, you also offered an apparently meaningless opinion based on a photo. Or are you just basing that on the number on the slab?
You might get a 65 based upon current photos.
No one trashed the coin or indicated that they could be particularly confident of a grade guess, based on images. Ironically, you sound as or more confident of your image-based assessment of the coin than anyone else who replied.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I don't recall ever grading any Morgan MS-67! I left PCI in '68 to grade at NGC. Although I've seen some MS-67's, I can count on one hand the number of Silver dollars I've ever graded MS-67 anywhere!
It looks like a 66 to me, and though the comparison coins you posted look inferior to your coin, it still looks like a 66 from the photo.
Tom
'68? Did you mean '86? NGC and PCGS grades Morgans MS67 every day, but if you look at their statistics they are grading thousands of coins on a daily basis. A Morgan dollar has to be really special to grade over MS66.
If that’s the case, (including resubmissions) in the opinion of PCGS, there are more than 17,000 really special Morgan dollars.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Would want get it in our hosts slab. Would speculate it gets 65.
What grade did you and the seller agree on?
Can you submit PCI for cross-over? I thought it had to be raw.
I can not tell from your pics? Does it have some of the typical pink toning find on silver coins in older PCI?
Is there a scrape on the lower neck?
This is mine was in a PCI MS65.
Looks like a 65
I'll try to provide an update when the coin comes back from grading with better pictures. I may be the biggest butterball on these boards paying too much, but occasionally get it right. The comparison pictures on Coinfacts in MS66 were the first 5 from PCGS and NGC that come up excluding the ebay sales.
Good luck @logger7. I think it will come back as a 65, appears to be just a little too much going on with the obverse based on the limited photos.
No way you are the biggest butterball... we have all paid tuition to learn about grading. I've had my fair share of losing my shirt over some bad choices... Some of us more than others. I wish you the best of luck, but as others already pointed out, I think you will also be downgraded as much as a couple points. If not, consider yourself lucky. As long as you are enjoying the learning process and you aren't breaking the bank by losing some value, then keep having fun!
One thing that helped me was to purchase a few common grades for reference... ie I have a set of 62 through 65 morgans, free of toning, and after a while I learned better instincts for grading them. Buying based off pictures on the internet though is fraught with risk, and you really need to only make sure you aren't risking more than you can afford to lose.
https://www.the4thcoin.com
https://www.ebay.com/str/thefourthcoin
You can submit PCI (and pretty much any other slab) for cross-over to PCGS. NGC however only allows PCGS for crossover.
"NGC however only allows PCGS for crossover."
True, but you can submit coins in other slabs as "raw", with an extra signature authorizing them to remove them from the slabs.
Collector of Liberty Seated Half Dimes, including die pairs and die states
100% won’t cross.
Not to be a broken record, but based on the pics, and they’re kinda tough, I’d go 65.
Bon chance!
Having fun while switching things up and focusing on a next level PCGS slabbed 1950+ type set, while still looking for great examples for the 7070.
With a coin like this, is it better to crack it out before sending it in to get graded? I know that theoretically it shouldn't make any difference.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
The coin went MS66 at ICG. I got it back the week before from ICG's quick grading, if Skip at ICG saw it and remembers it he is free to discuss it on this forum where he posts.. A couple from NY who was looking through the inventory thought it was high end and paid me over Greysheet for it last week.
You sold it without having the hassle.
That is a win.
Hard to speculate but a nice 65 from best I can tell
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The coin club member who sets up at a weekend indoor flea market has had it in his booth the better part of the year and would not budge on price. Paid $300 for the PCI coin.
Isn't that akin to setting up a submission so as to get a certain coin into a higher grade holder that seasoned submitters are alleged to do?
MY COINS FOR SALE AT https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/collectors-showcase/other/bajjerfans-coins-sale/3876
As I explained in response to that slam, the MS66 examples in NGC and PCGS slabs were the all from the PCGS "coin facts" page as I downloaded them one at a time in no deliberate order from their page. So another false assertion.
I was commenting to coinbuf about the practice of setting up a submission and not implying that you had done that as another poster did.
MY COINS FOR SALE AT https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/collectors-showcase/other/bajjerfans-coins-sale/3876
I simply thought that he had picked some duds to post as a way of showing that his was much better. As he has said these were simply the most recent auction coins on coinfacts I made a mistake with my assumption. Which is basically what you are saying although that was not what I was thinking at the time.
My Collection of Old Holders
Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.