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High grade PCI slab Morgan--will it cross?

logger7logger7 Posts: 8,094 ✭✭✭✭✭
edited March 5, 2024 6:51PM in U.S. Coin Forum

I realize this coin was something of a crapshoot when I bought it from an indoor flea market vendor. Do you think it would cross and at what grade?




My estimate is at least MS66 as the coin is clean.

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    erwindocerwindoc Posts: 4,927 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Looks like too much chatter for a 67 on the cheek and could be as low as a 65. Hard to tell any more by the photos. Id say dont crack it out!

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    ConnecticoinConnecticoin Posts: 12,542 ✭✭✭✭✭

    The Green 10 digit PCI cert started the loose grading era. The stricter graded Green PCI holders with that font had 14 digit certs.

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    alaura22alaura22 Posts: 2,666 ✭✭✭✭✭

    To answer the question asked
    No

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    MFeldMFeld Posts: 12,056 ✭✭✭✭✭

    No, as it looks like an MS65. And posting pictures of PCGS and NGC coins in MS66 holders wont influence me. ;)

    Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.

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    logger7logger7 Posts: 8,094 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @MFeld said:
    No, as it looks like an MS65. And posting pictures of PCGS and NGC coins in MS66 holders wont influence me. ;)

    Then where is objective grading? Apples with apples, what Coinfacts is for, not a sort of bias based on the holder and when the coin was graded. Do you believe that the first coins that came up on Coinfacts in PCGS and NGC holder are all superior to the PCI coin, and if so why?

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    jmlanzafjmlanzaf Posts: 31,997 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @U1chicago said:
    That is a later generation PCI slab (not the original green label that were considered stricter). By this point the grades were considered loose (although they could still get it right occasionally). Given that the picture is hard to read and knowing the history of the holder, I would guess MS 64 with a chance at MS 65.

    It was a joke, based on the other thread.

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    jmlanzafjmlanzaf Posts: 31,997 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 5, 2024 7:59PM

    @logger7 said:

    @MFeld said:
    No, as it looks like an MS65. And posting pictures of PCGS and NGC coins in MS66 holders wont influence me. ;)

    Then where is objective grading? Apples with apples, what Coinfacts is for, not a sort of bias based on the holder and when the coin was graded. Do you believe that the first coins that came up on Coinfacts in PCGS and NGC holder are all superior to the PCI coin, and if so why?

    No one mentioned the holder but me. Sorry. It was a joke based on the other thread.

    You asked what we thought. The consensus seems to be 65. But send it in. Only way to be sure. Grading from photos is rarely definitive. It could sneak into a 66 if the chatter we're seeing isn't obvious in hand.

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    pursuitoflibertypursuitofliberty Posts: 6,596 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I think it's real, so I think it will cross at some grade, but not at 67.

    I'd say 65 is more likely than 66, but I think it could have a shot at 66. It's really hard to tell from those images (or any images really).

    And I don't say it has a shot because of some of the 66 images posted later, because we've all seen worse. It appears to have Gem surfaces, and that could fit 65 or 66 in my mind.


    “We are only their care-takers,” he posed, “if we take good care of them, then centuries from now they may still be here … ”

    Todd - BHNC #242
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    U1chicagoU1chicago Posts: 5,619 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @jmlanzaf said:

    @U1chicago said:
    That is a later generation PCI slab (not the original green label that were considered stricter). By this point the grades were considered loose (although they could still get it right occasionally). Given that the picture is hard to read and knowing the history of the holder, I would guess MS 64 with a chance at MS 65.

    It was a joke, based on the other thread.

    Just giving info to those that might wonder about the holder.

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    johnny010johnny010 Posts: 1,095 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I give it a 66.
    Nice looking coin
    Best of luck

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    airplanenutairplanenut Posts: 21,910 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @logger7 said:

    @MFeld said:
    No, as it looks like an MS65. And posting pictures of PCGS and NGC coins in MS66 holders wont influence me. ;)

    Then where is objective grading? Apples with apples, what Coinfacts is for, not a sort of bias based on the holder and when the coin was graded. Do you believe that the first coins that came up on Coinfacts in PCGS and NGC holder are all superior to the PCI coin, and if so why?

    I believe I have a good feel for your coin because the photos show lustre well, and with it, enough chatter to think 67 will never happen and 66 might be high, too (for that, I need bigger and better photos). The PCGS and NGC photos you showed are severely lacking and little can be gleaned from them. Outside of a screaming low price where I really couldn’t lose, I would never buy a coin with photos like that and no other information because the photos are worthless.

    JK Coin Photography - eBay Consignments | High Quality Photos | LOW Prices | 20% of Consignment Proceeds Go to Pancreatic Cancer Research
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    braddickbraddick Posts: 23,128 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I'd request PCGS currate the reverse.
    Looks GEM (MS65) to me.
    Shot 66 if the reverse isn't as muted as it appears in your photo.

    peacockcoins

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    messydeskmessydesk Posts: 19,704 ✭✭✭✭✭

    65 tops.

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    coinbufcoinbuf Posts: 10,771 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 6, 2024 8:49AM

    Your question "will it cross" yes 100% I think it will cross as an MS65. Bty, finding some subpar examples to try and sway the jury is a newbie move, you are better than that.

    My Lincoln Registry
    My Collection of Old Holders

    Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.
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    RayboRaybo Posts: 5,273 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I like how some members that have in the past said "It's hard to judge a coin by using images" are now ganging up to "trash" your PCI coin from your images logger.

    I'd gladly pay you for what you paid for it even though I'm not a Morgan fan. I think it will easily go 66 if not more.

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    RayboRaybo Posts: 5,273 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Connecticoin said:
    The Green 10 digit PCI cert started the loose grading era. The stricter graded Green PCI holders with that font had 14 digit certs.

    Not true at all.

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    Insider3Insider3 Posts: 260 ✭✭✭

    @jmlanzaf said:
    I'm told PCI was too strict. 68 all day.

    Kidding aside, 65.

    I don't know how long you've been in the business but let me ask you some questions. PCI used a red label for problem coins. Over the years I worked there we sent out several thousand problem slabs.

    1. How many have you seen around?
    2. This is an easy one. Why do you think they hardly exist?
    3. Do you think any PCI problem coins were crossed into the two top services slabs?
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    ConnecticoinConnecticoin Posts: 12,542 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Raybo said:

    @Raybo said:

    @Connecticoin said:
    The Green 10 digit PCI cert started the loose grading era. The stricter graded Green PCI holders with that font had 14 digit certs.

    Not true at all.

    Not true based on what? My personal experience and experience of those on this board over the years substantially confirms the 10-digit green holders tend to be overgraded by 2 points or more vs PCGS standards. If you are thinking of the earlier PCI green holders with the old font, those had 9 digit certs.

    I found this article from 2015 - although the cert numbers were not specified, it is highly likely they had 10 digits:

    https://news.coinupdate.com/crossover-reality-check-old-green-pci-holders-4898/

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    ConnecticoinConnecticoin Posts: 12,542 ✭✭✭✭✭

    FWIW, based on the photos, I think the coin looks like a nice 65, but a bit too much chatter for a 66 (maybe 65+). I hope the OP only paid 65 money or less for the coin.

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    jmlanzafjmlanzaf Posts: 31,997 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Insider3 said:

    @jmlanzaf said:
    I'm told PCI was too strict. 68 all day.

    Kidding aside, 65.

    I don't know how long you've been in the business but let me ask you some questions. PCI used a red label for problem coins. Over the years I worked there we sent out several thousand problem slabs.

    1. How many have you seen around?
    2. This is an easy one. Why do you think they hardly exist?
    3. Do you think any PCI problem coins were crossed into the two top services slabs?

    I didn't refer to this as a problem coin. Looks 65 to me, maybe 66 if the chatter is less obvious in hand. I never indicated a problem coin. But it doesn't look 67 to me.

    A lot of early ANACS and PCI coins crossed over in the last 30 years. A lot of PCGS and NGC coins also cracked out and regraded also. See the other thread for the purported reason why.

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    jmlanzafjmlanzaf Posts: 31,997 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Raybo said:
    I like how some members that have in the past said "It's hard to judge a coin by using images" are now ganging up to "trash" your PCI coin from your images logger.

    I'd gladly pay you for what you paid for it even though I'm not a Morgan fan. I think it will easily go 66 if not more.

    I acknowledged the image problem on this thread. But if you ask us to offer an opinion based on a photo, you have to expect an opinion based on the photo. I hardly think calling it a 65, maybe 66, is "trashing" the coin.

    Ironically, you also offered an apparently meaningless opinion based on a photo. Or are you just basing that on the number on the slab?

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    lcoopielcoopie Posts: 8,788 ✭✭✭✭✭

    You might get a 65 based upon current photos.

    LCoopie = Les
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    MFeldMFeld Posts: 12,056 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Raybo said:
    I like how some members that have in the past said "It's hard to judge a coin by using images" are now ganging up to "trash" your PCI coin from your images logger.

    I'd gladly pay you for what you paid for it even though I'm not a Morgan fan. I think it will easily go 66 if not more.

    No one trashed the coin or indicated that they could be particularly confident of a grade guess, based on images. Ironically, you sound as or more confident of your image-based assessment of the coin than anyone else who replied.

    Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.

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    Insider3Insider3 Posts: 260 ✭✭✭
    edited March 6, 2024 7:39AM

    @Connecticoin said:
    The Green 10 digit PCI cert started the loose grading era. The stricter graded Green PCI holders with that font had 14 digit certs.

    I don't recall ever grading any Morgan MS-67! I left PCI in '68 to grade at NGC. Although I've seen some MS-67's, I can count on one hand the number of Silver dollars I've ever graded MS-67 anywhere!

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    TPRCTPRC Posts: 3,740 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 6, 2024 7:54AM

    It looks like a 66 to me, and though the comparison coins you posted look inferior to your coin, it still looks like a 66 from the photo.

    Tom

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    logger7logger7 Posts: 8,094 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Insider3 said:

    @Connecticoin said:
    The Green 10 digit PCI cert started the loose grading era. The stricter graded Green PCI holders with that font had 14 digit certs.

    I don't recall ever grading any Morgan MS-67! I left PCI in '68 to grade at NGC. Although I've seen some MS-67's, I can count on one hand the number of Silver dollars I've ever graded MS-67 anywhere!

    '68? Did you mean '86? NGC and PCGS grades Morgans MS67 every day, but if you look at their statistics they are grading thousands of coins on a daily basis. A Morgan dollar has to be really special to grade over MS66.

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    MFeldMFeld Posts: 12,056 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @logger7 said:

    @Insider3 said:

    @Connecticoin said:
    The Green 10 digit PCI cert started the loose grading era. The stricter graded Green PCI holders with that font had 14 digit certs.

    I don't recall ever grading any Morgan MS-67! I left PCI in '68 to grade at NGC. Although I've seen some MS-67's, I can count on one hand the number of Silver dollars I've ever graded MS-67 anywhere!

    '68? Did you mean '86? NGC and PCGS grades Morgans MS67 every day, but if you look at their statistics they are grading thousands of coins on a daily basis. A Morgan dollar has to be really special to grade over MS66.

    If that’s the case, (including resubmissions) in the opinion of PCGS, there are more than 17,000 really special Morgan dollars.

    Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.

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    Cougar1978Cougar1978 Posts: 7,640 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Would want get it in our hosts slab. Would speculate it gets 65.

    So Cali Area - Coins & Currency
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    CoinscratchCoinscratch Posts: 7,939 ✭✭✭✭✭

    What grade did you and the seller agree on?

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    davewesendavewesen Posts: 5,860 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Can you submit PCI for cross-over? I thought it had to be raw.

    I can not tell from your pics? Does it have some of the typical pink toning find on silver coins in older PCI?
    Is there a scrape on the lower neck?
    This is mine was in a PCI MS65.

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    JJMJJM Posts: 7,984 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Looks like a 65

    👍BST's erickso1,cone10,MICHAELDIXON,TennesseeDave,p8nt,jmdm1194,RWW,robkool,Ahrensdad,Timbuk3,Downtown1974,bigjpst,mustanggt,Yorkshireman,idratherbgardening,SurfinxHI,derryb,masscrew,Walkerguy21D,MJ1927,sniocsu,Coll3tor,doubleeagle07,luciobar1980,PerryHall,SNMAM,mbcoin,liefgold,keyman64,maprince230,TorinoCobra71,RB1026,Weiss,LukeMarshall,Wingsrule,Silveryfire, pointfivezero,IKE1964,AL410, Tdec1000, AnkurJ,guitarwes,Type2,Bp777,jfoot113,JWP,mattniss,dantheman984,jclovescoins,Collectorcoins,Weather11am,Namvet69,kansasman,Bruce7789,ADG,Larrob37
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    logger7logger7 Posts: 8,094 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I'll try to provide an update when the coin comes back from grading with better pictures. I may be the biggest butterball on these boards paying too much, but occasionally get it right. The comparison pictures on Coinfacts in MS66 were the first 5 from PCGS and NGC that come up excluding the ebay sales.

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    mattnissmattniss Posts: 582 ✭✭✭✭

    Good luck @logger7. I think it will come back as a 65, appears to be just a little too much going on with the obverse based on the limited photos.

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    U1chicagoU1chicago Posts: 5,619 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 6, 2024 7:44PM

    @davewesen said:
    Can you submit PCI for cross-over? I thought it had to be raw.

    I can not tell from your pics? Does it have some of the typical pink toning find on silver coins in older PCI?
    Is there a scrape on the lower neck?
    This is mine was in a PCI MS65.

    You can submit PCI (and pretty much any other slab) for cross-over to PCGS. NGC however only allows PCGS for crossover.

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    epcepc Posts: 162 ✭✭✭✭

    "NGC however only allows PCGS for crossover."

    True, but you can submit coins in other slabs as "raw", with an extra signature authorizing them to remove them from the slabs.

    Collector of Liberty Seated Half Dimes, including die pairs and die states

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    AlanSkiAlanSki Posts: 1,829 ✭✭✭✭✭

    100% won’t cross.

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    Jacques_LoungecoqueJacques_Loungecoque Posts: 225 ✭✭✭
    edited March 31, 2024 1:01AM

    Not to be a broken record, but based on the pics, and they’re kinda tough, I’d go 65.

    Bon chance!

    Having fun while switching things up and focusing on a next level PCGS slabbed 1950+ type set, while still looking for great examples for the 7070.

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    PerryHallPerryHall Posts: 45,443 ✭✭✭✭✭

    With a coin like this, is it better to crack it out before sending it in to get graded? I know that theoretically it shouldn't make any difference.

    Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.

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    logger7logger7 Posts: 8,094 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 31, 2024 11:46AM

    The coin went MS66 at ICG. I got it back the week before from ICG's quick grading, if Skip at ICG saw it and remembers it he is free to discuss it on this forum where he posts.. A couple from NY who was looking through the inventory thought it was high end and paid me over Greysheet for it last week.

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    yspsalesyspsales Posts: 2,231 ✭✭✭✭✭

    You sold it without having the hassle.

    That is a win.

    Hard to speculate but a nice 65 from best I can tell

    BST: KindaNewish (3/21/21), WQuarterFreddie (3/30/21), Meltdown (4/6/21), DBSTrader2 (5/5/21) AKA- unclemonkey on Blow Out

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    logger7logger7 Posts: 8,094 ✭✭✭✭✭

    The coin club member who sets up at a weekend indoor flea market has had it in his booth the better part of the year and would not budge on price. Paid $300 for the PCI coin.

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    BAJJERFANBAJJERFAN Posts: 30,992 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @coinbuf said:
    Your question "will it cross" yes 100% I think it will cross as an MS65. Bty, finding some subpar examples to try and sway the jury is a newbie move, you are better than that.

    Isn't that akin to setting up a submission so as to get a certain coin into a higher grade holder that seasoned submitters are alleged to do?

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    logger7logger7 Posts: 8,094 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @BAJJERFAN said:

    @coinbuf said:
    Your question "will it cross" yes 100% I think it will cross as an MS65. Bty, finding some subpar examples to try and sway the jury is a newbie move, you are better than that.

    Isn't that akin to setting up a submission so as to get a certain coin into a higher grade holder that seasoned submitters are alleged to do?

    As I explained in response to that slam, the MS66 examples in NGC and PCGS slabs were the all from the PCGS "coin facts" page as I downloaded them one at a time in no deliberate order from their page. So another false assertion.

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    BAJJERFANBAJJERFAN Posts: 30,992 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @logger7 said:

    @BAJJERFAN said:

    @coinbuf said:
    Your question "will it cross" yes 100% I think it will cross as an MS65. Bty, finding some subpar examples to try and sway the jury is a newbie move, you are better than that.

    Isn't that akin to setting up a submission so as to get a certain coin into a higher grade holder that seasoned submitters are alleged to do?

    As I explained in response to that slam, the MS66 examples in NGC and PCGS slabs were the all from the PCGS "coin facts" page as I downloaded them one at a time in no deliberate order from their page. So another false assertion.

    I was commenting to coinbuf about the practice of setting up a submission and not implying that you had done that as another poster did.

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    coinbufcoinbuf Posts: 10,771 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @BAJJERFAN said:
    I was commenting to coinbuf about the practice of setting up a submission and not implying that you had done that as another poster did.

    I simply thought that he had picked some duds to post as a way of showing that his was much better. As he has said these were simply the most recent auction coins on coinfacts I made a mistake with my assumption. Which is basically what you are saying although that was not what I was thinking at the time.

    My Lincoln Registry
    My Collection of Old Holders

    Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.

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