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NFL combine: Winners (WRs class, CB Quinyon Mitchell) and losers (Spencer Rattler, combine itself)

stevekstevek Posts: 27,744 ✭✭✭✭✭

https://www.yahoo.com/sports/nfl-combine-winners-wrs-class-cb-quinyon-mitchell-and-losers-spencer-rattler-combine-itself-025222845.html

NFL combine: Winners (WRs class, CB Quinyon Mitchell) and losers (Spencer Rattler, combine itself)

Some of the most athletic players at the combine will be the biggest busts - as always, especially at QB.

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    stevekstevek Posts: 27,744 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 5, 2024 8:20AM

    There's a big difference between speed and football speed. Even high school football coaches understand this.

    However it's amazing how at the NFL level, too often these coaches get all excited over combine stats. With failure to comprehend that is meaningless, unless it translates into successful football stats. Especially with quarterbacks.

    The perennial losing NFL coaches never seem to grasp this basic concept.

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    perkdogperkdog Posts: 29,504 ✭✭✭✭✭

    And the combine is just as telling as that wonderlic test

    None of it means a thing in regards to how good a player will be in the NFL

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    galaxy27galaxy27 Posts: 7,138 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 5, 2024 8:17AM

    look no further than the guy who broke the record in the 40...........Xavier Worthy (4.21)

    whose mark did he beat? John Ross'

    back in 2017, John Ross ran a 4.22 at the combine and scouts lost their minds. he was selected 9th overall in the draft that year. fast forward to 2023........he retired at age 27. dude didn't even accumulate a thousand receiving yards in his pro career.

    not saying that Worthy will flame out the way Ross did, but straight-line speed guarantees zilch in the NFL

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    stevekstevek Posts: 27,744 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @galaxy27 said:
    look no further than the guy who broke the record in the 40...........Xavier Worthy (4.21)

    whose mark did he beat? John Ross'

    back in 2017, John Ross ran a 4.22 at the combine and scouts lost their minds. he was selected 9th overall in the draft that year. fast forward to 2023........he retired at age 27. dude didn't even accumulate a thousand receiving yards in his pro career.

    not saying that Worthy will flame out the way Ross did, but straight-line speed guarantees zilch in the NFL

    My first experience with this was playing high school football. I was a senior in summer football practice and had already played in grades 7 thru 11. This new kid at practice, a junior, tried out for the team. I didn't know him, but I had heard of him as he was a track star for the school. He ran the 100 yard and 200 yard dashes.

    I recall the first time I saw him run on the football field, the first day of practice, he was astonishingly fast. Much faster than any player we had. He tried out for wide receiver, but he couldn't catch a football to save his life. And this was without defenders. I think he quit after the second or third day.

    Granted when a player gets to the NFL combine level. he has had at least some good success already at the college level. But then there is another step up to the pro level, whereby the game is much faster and complex. For example receivers are much less likely to be wide open, and must have the ability to catch passes in heavy traffic. QB's must be able to process information much faster than they needed to in college, etc.

    Some NFL coaches such as a Tom Landry, Bill Walsh, Andy Reid, etc, have the innate ability thru various ways, to separate the winners from losers at these key positions.

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    galaxy27galaxy27 Posts: 7,138 ✭✭✭✭✭

    i'll never forget Ross mouthing off after running 4.22, saying he could beat Usain Bolt in a foot race. that nonsense spread like wildfire and another pro sprinter, Christian Coleman, decided to run the 40 on turf to show everyone what fast really is

    4.12

    the fastest guys in the NFL are just that, fast, but when they start saying that they could blaze past track stars it's time to be quiet

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oHV-8TwxfXY

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    BrickBrick Posts: 4,938 ✭✭✭✭✭

    It's one thing to run from point A to point B quickly as you can and a different thing to run from point A to Point B with a superb athlete trying to disrupt your progress or even knock you on your butt.

    Collecting 1960 Topps Baseball in PSA 8
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    Ralph

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    Alfonz24Alfonz24 Posts: 3,053 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Both Football and Track

    Gault qualified for the 1980 U.S. Olympic team and would have participated in the 1980 Summer Olympics in Moscow had the United States not boycotted the event. He was one of 461 athletes to receive a Congressional Gold Medal. Gault set a record in the 110-meter high hurdles at the SEC track and field championships in May 1981. At the 1982 SEC championships, he again set the 110-meter high hurdles record, and won the Commissioner's Trophy for the highest overall score. He won the 60-yard hurdles event at the 1983 SEC indoor championships with a time of 7.05. At the 1983 NCAA Indoor Track and Field Championships, Gault won the 60-yard high hurdles and the 60-yard dash with times of 6.98 and 6.18, respectively. At the 1983 NCAA outdoor championships, Gault placed third behind Roger Kingdom and Reggie Towns in the 110-meter high hurdles.

    Gault was part of a world record-setting 4 × 100 meter relay team (1. Emmit King, 2. Willie Gault, 3. Calvin Smith, 4. Carl Lewis) at the 1983 World Championships. He also competed in the 110 meter hurdles and attended the Liberty Bell Classic, where he won a bronze medal in the 100 meter race). He made the 1988 Winter Olympics bobsledding team as an alternate. His official personal bests are 13.26 seconds in the 110 meter hurdles and 10.10 seconds in the 100 meters.

    #LetsGoSwitzerlandThe Man Who Does Not Read Has No Advantage Over the Man Who Cannot Read. The biggest obstacle to progress is a habit of “buying what we want and begging for what we need.”You get the Freedom you fight for and get the Oppression you deserve.
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    stevekstevek Posts: 27,744 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Alfonz24 said:

    Both Football and Track

    Gault qualified for the 1980 U.S. Olympic team and would have participated in the 1980 Summer Olympics in Moscow had the United States not boycotted the event. He was one of 461 athletes to receive a Congressional Gold Medal. Gault set a record in the 110-meter high hurdles at the SEC track and field championships in May 1981. At the 1982 SEC championships, he again set the 110-meter high hurdles record, and won the Commissioner's Trophy for the highest overall score. He won the 60-yard hurdles event at the 1983 SEC indoor championships with a time of 7.05. At the 1983 NCAA Indoor Track and Field Championships, Gault won the 60-yard high hurdles and the 60-yard dash with times of 6.98 and 6.18, respectively. At the 1983 NCAA outdoor championships, Gault placed third behind Roger Kingdom and Reggie Towns in the 110-meter high hurdles.

    Gault was part of a world record-setting 4 × 100 meter relay team (1. Emmit King, 2. Willie Gault, 3. Calvin Smith, 4. Carl Lewis) at the 1983 World Championships. He also competed in the 110 meter hurdles and attended the Liberty Bell Classic, where he won a bronze medal in the 100 meter race). He made the 1988 Winter Olympics bobsledding team as an alternate. His official personal bests are 13.26 seconds in the 110 meter hurdles and 10.10 seconds in the 100 meters.

    Nobody is saying that both can't be done. But what I'm saying is naive, often too lazy, NFL coaches at combines, place too much emphasis on combine stats, and not enough emphasis on can that combine talent translate into NFL capable talent.

    There's an old saying that the best plan suddenly changes when ya get punched in the nose. And the best QB at the combine can suddenly change when he gets rocked a few times by NFL defensive killers. He develops happy feet, etc.

    Same way college wide receivers can be stars on wide open playing fields. But develop alligator arms when going across the middle against vicious linebackers and safeties trying to take their heads off.

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    craig44craig44 Posts: 10,539 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I wonder if Bolt could have run a sub 4.00 40 in his prime?

    George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.

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    stevekstevek Posts: 27,744 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @craig44 said:
    I wonder if Bolt could have run a sub 4.00 40 in his prime?

    I would guess that a guy such as Willie Gault couldn't make much coin back then running track. So for the money, he had a lot of incentive to play football.

    While in this era, a guy such as Bolt, likely makes a small fortune running track. Plus endorsements, advertising, etc, produces big bucks. Thus he has little or no incentive to play other sports, particularly a violent sport such as football.

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    JoeBanzaiJoeBanzai Posts: 11,223 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @stevek said:
    There's a big difference between speed and football speed. Even high school football coaches understand this.

    However it's amazing how at the NFL level, too often these coaches get all excited over combine stats. With failure to comprehend that is meaningless, unless it translates into successful football stats. Especially with quarterbacks.

    The perennial losing NFL coaches never seem to grasp this basic concept.

    After the Vikings finally got fed up with Randy Moss and traded him, they decided they had to try to replace him with another "speed guy" and took Troy Williamson in the first round (7th overall😞).
    It was said right from the start the Vikings were going to have to teach him how to be a football player. What a laugh, if a guy can't catch a football by the time he's played 8-12 years of football it ain't going to happen.

    2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
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    Basebal21Basebal21 Posts: 2,268 ✭✭✭✭

    @stevek said:
    There's a big difference between speed and football speed. Even high school football coaches understand this.

    However it's amazing how at the NFL level, too often these coaches get all excited over combine stats. With failure to comprehend that is meaningless, unless it translates into successful football stats. Especially with quarterbacks.

    The perennial losing NFL coaches never seem to grasp this basic concept.

    They really dont get that excited about it. Its mostly just a show so they can get more money having it televised. The coaches know players dont play in sliders and compression shirts and have to wear pads on the field. They basically just expect some minimum and dont really care after that. It doesnt matter what a linemans 40 time is, the only chance hed ever do that in a game in on an interception. Its like running the 60 in baseball it have no value to the actual game but its good for TV and just done because it always has been

    QB accuracy has some merit but again theres no pads on. Aside from the fact of all the game tape, if they really wanted to make the combine anything meaningful players would be wearing pads. Players literally spend months training how to improve there scores and its meaningless

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    coolstanleycoolstanley Posts: 2,461 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @craig44 said:
    I wonder if Bolt could have run a sub 4.00 40 in his prime?

    Joey Galloway ran it in 4.18 in 1995.

    Terry Bradshaw was AMAZING!!

    Ignore list -Basebal21

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    Basebal21Basebal21 Posts: 2,268 ✭✭✭✭

    The official record for the 40 is Xaviier Worthy the Texas WR who ran a 4.21 this year. The previous record was John Ross who ran a 4.22 in 2017

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    coolstanleycoolstanley Posts: 2,461 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Terry Bradshaw was AMAZING!!

    Ignore list -Basebal21

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    craig44craig44 Posts: 10,539 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I heard that Deion Sanders ran a sub 4.2 but it was an unofficial time.

    George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.

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    perkdogperkdog Posts: 29,504 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I'm confused

    What is an unofficial time??

    He either ran it or he didn't

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    stevekstevek Posts: 27,744 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I just timed myself in the 40. Got a 3.92!

    Dam, I should have gone to the combine. Could have maybe signed a lucrative NFL contract.

    BTW - the 40 time, that's 40 feet right?

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    Basebal21Basebal21 Posts: 2,268 ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 6, 2024 4:46PM

    @perkdog said:
    I'm confused

    What is an unofficial time??

    He either ran it or he didn't

    Basically electronically timed verse a time with stopwatch. It was around 1999 when they started using the lasers to time it. Hand times arent accurate to a 10th of a second much less to the 100ths of a second. The laser times are essentially always slower as there isnt a delay from someone having to react and push a button to start it or an anticipation from a human wanting to push the button as they cross at the end.

    The best Olympians in the world theres a 0.1 to 0.2 second delay when they have to react to a starting gun. The same thing goes the other way with people timing things by hand waiting to start when the athlete does

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    coolstanleycoolstanley Posts: 2,461 ✭✭✭✭✭

    So basically any dash before 1999 is unofficial.

    I hold the record at my high school in the 50 yd dash. 5.6 seconds.

    Terry Bradshaw was AMAZING!!

    Ignore list -Basebal21

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    Basebal21Basebal21 Posts: 2,268 ✭✭✭✭

    @coolstanley said:
    So basically any dash before 1999 is unofficial.

    Correct. You can count the number of players that have run a 4.23 or better on one hand since the electronic timing started. No one has run under a 4.2 at the combine since that started. Any time of 4.1x had human error involved

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    coolstanleycoolstanley Posts: 2,461 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 7, 2024 4:23AM

    @Basebal21 said:

    @coolstanley said:
    So basically any dash before 1999 is unofficial.

    Correct. You can count the number of players that have run a 4.23 or better on one hand since the electronic timing started. No one has run under a 4.2 at the combine since that started. Any time of 4.1x had human error involved

    I think it is certainly possible that some of those guys from the 80's and 90's like Jackson and Galloway ran legit 4.1's. Jackson was a freak of nature and Galloway was a state champion in the 100 and 200 meter. Christian Coleman recently ran a 4.12.

    Terry Bradshaw was AMAZING!!

    Ignore list -Basebal21

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    Basebal21Basebal21 Posts: 2,268 ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 7, 2024 6:49PM

    @coolstanley said:

    @Basebal21 said:

    @coolstanley said:
    So basically any dash before 1999 is unofficial.

    Correct. You can count the number of players that have run a 4.23 or better on one hand since the electronic timing started. No one has run under a 4.2 at the combine since that started. Any time of 4.1x had human error involved

    I think it is certainly possible that some of those guys from the 80's and 90's like Jackson and Galloway ran legit 4.1's. Jackson was a freak of nature and Galloway was a state champion in the 100 and 200 meter. Christian Coleman recently ran a 4.12.

    Theres been 25 years of combine times and no one has done it. Coleman is an Olympic sprinter not an NFL player. There are people in the world that can do it where thats there job to do it, Theres people that run marathons and sub 3 minute miles as well.

    Four players have run a 4.23 or better, Five have run a 4.26 or better with official times. Theres basically no chance that Galloway who played at Ohio State ran a 4.18 in reality when it was by a hand timed stop watch which is proven to be inaccurate.

    Jameson Williams might have been able to break the 4.2 mark but tore his ACL at didnt run it at the combine

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    coolstanleycoolstanley Posts: 2,461 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 8, 2024 5:51AM

    Says the FORUM Ohio State hater :D

    Can you prove that Galloway or Jackson didnt run a sub 4.2? No of course you cant.

    Terry Bradshaw was AMAZING!!

    Ignore list -Basebal21

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    Basebal21Basebal21 Posts: 2,268 ✭✭✭✭

    If someone wants to turn things into Ohio State for some reason thats certainly their right. When people cant talk about things intelligently resorting to name calling it only hurts others perception of themselves and lowers their credibility every time.

    Its very easy to prove that Galloway didnt run a 4.18 that was times by a human with a stopwatch. Theres indirect and direct evidence. The indirect evidence would be that 4 players have run a 4.23 or better in 25 years despite having significant training advantages from 30 years ago. NFL players are not Olympic sprinters and what an Olympic sprinter can do is completely irrelevant.

    The direct evidence that cannot be argued with again is that times that are done by hand are scientifically proven to be inaccurate. It is a scientific fact that a human using a stop watch is not accurate to the 10th of a second much less to the 100th of a second. Stop watches the time starts after the athlete starts to run, laser timing starts when the athlete starts to run

    The differences between a hand timed start and stop, a hand time start with a automated laser finish, and a fully automated stop and start are very well documented and proven with the fully automated times being slower if people are interested in looking into the topic.

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