I'm sure this has been brought up before but why does PCGS not allow other slabs in their set?

mrpaseo

After all it is the coin, not the slab that counts right?

Now hear me out here...
For each greading service, they coin would be weighted, i.e.

PCGS--(+1)
NGC--(+0)
SEGS--(-1)
ACG--(-2)

Then further rate with grade and time period (Slab date or slab type i.e. PCGS has what 15 different labs now?)

What do you all think? I know it would take along time to get it all in motion, but wouldn't you think it would bring the motive back to the coins rather than the slabs?

What do you think?
Ray

gmarguli

PCGS needs to stop the ego trip that cost it being the #1 grading service (NGC is #1 in submissions) and just go back to grading coins.

PCGS needs to allow NGC coins in their set with no deduction in grade points. If anything they should give NGC coins a small premium since they are more likely graded more inline with the grading standards.

cosmicdebris

Until they do allow other slabs they need to change it from the finest all time sets to the finest pcgs slabbed registery sets.

mdwoods

How about this for an idea PCGS. At least let the person submit other companies slabs for review. That way, if they agreed with the grade the coin could be listed. If not, oh well. PCGS has a good enough reputation that this little concession could only give them a boost. Make the fee cheap enough to encourage people to send in their coins. And, tell them why, in 50 words or less, their coin doesn't measure up if PCGS decides not to accept it. This would work to everyones advantage. Mark

mrpaseo

Mark, they do that now, it's called the crossover service.

Ray

mdwoods

I know that, but I mean, that you get to keep it in its original slab. Mark

Or are you just funnin me?

braddick

For the same reason McDonalds doesn't sell the flame broiled Whopper.

Typetone

To really make it a real registry of best collections, some allowance should be made for NGC coins. I would suggest allowing NGC coins at a 1 point deduction, or alternately allowing a certain percentage of NGC coins, say 10% to 20%. Such a system would be good for collectors and also good for PCGS. Right now if you have a significant number of NGC coins in your set, you might just decide not to play in the registry. But, if some or all of your NGCs can come into play, then you might enter. Once you enter then you are hooked, and PCGS adds grading business and its dealers get to sell more coins.

Greg

Russ

<< <i>If anything they should give NGC coins a small premium since they are more likely graded more inline with the grading standards. >>



This from a guy who just scored a dozen 1969 Kennedy's in PR69DCAM at PCGS. I'm thinking of a word that starts with an H.

Russ, NCNE

IrishMike

Hyperlucky?

JJacks

PCGS certainly should not allow other slabs in their Registry sets IMO. If NGC wants to allow PCGS coins in their sets, fine, let them honor PCGS. NGC doesn't allow everyone either. I don't think they allow SEGS or certainly not ACG. Remember that when you are the #1 company in quality (regardless of submissions), you don't have to count on others to bail you out. Lets see where the NGC Registry would be if they didn't allow PCGS coins.

Personally, I don't want my MS65FBL PCGS Franklins going against someones NGCs that are graded as 65FBL, but are 64FBL.

I agree they could change the name to "Finest sets of PCGS graded coins" or whatever.

Like Braddick said, go to McDonald's and buy a Whopper and see what they say.

JJacks

DHeath

MrPaseo,

I too would love to see an all-time finest registry regardless of grading service, but frankly there is and was enough difference in grading standards that I'm not sure how relevant it would be. Additionally, if such an excercise were to be undertaken, why would you want to see PCGS implement it? NGC already provides such a forum, and nobody is interested. For what it's worth, I like the treatment I've received at PCGS, NGC, and Anacs. All do a credible job, and each has strengths and weaknesses. The fabulous thing about being a collector is that you have the option of allowing anyone's slab in your own collection. You can even keep raw! The all-time finest registry collection is only for fun. It shouldn't be taken too seriously. It really is just an additional tool for enjoyment of our hobby. I have been reading these boards for quite a while and I have never heard any of the top contenders in the registry say they believed their sets were the finest in the hobby, just some of the other members.

gmarguli

I would suggest allowing NGC coins at a 1 point deduction,

This is insane. Can ANYONE explain why a collector would want to allow PCGS to knock a point off an NGC graded coin when NGC graded coins trade statistically at the same level as PCGS coins?

gmarguli

If anything they should give NGC coins a small premium since they are more likely graded more inline with the grading standards.

This from a guy who just scored a dozen 1969 Kennedy's in PR69DCAM at PCGS. I'm thinking of a word that starts with an H.

H..um..HAPPY? As in happy I just turned less than $100 in coins into $2000 in coins?

Actually I don't agree with all the grades that I got on that batch. Most are nice and solid for the grade. However, there are a couple that I used as set up coins that were more likely PR68DCAM's. There is one that I have zero doubt would have graded PR70DCAM a few years ago. In fact I would call it a PR70 today, but we know that PCGS won't give out that grade because they are on an agenda.

I also didn't just "score" them. These coins were selected out of many coins and it wasn't just luck they hit the PR69DCAM grade.

braddick

Greg- I don't know what your plans are for that "PR70DCAM" appeal coin- but I'd love to be a buyer.

JJacks

Greg, you know it's just not true that all NGC coins trade at the same level as PCGS coins. I admit many "Classic" coins do, but clearly many Moderns do not trade anywhere near as high in NGC as PCGS. If PCGS allowed NGC coins in their registry, many modern sets such as Ikes which I know about would eventually have a bunch of NGC graded coins in them, because they are very affordable in NGC 65/66, but not as affordable in PCGS 65/66.

I don't think a 1 point deduction would work either. I think about the only way would be to send the coin in for PCGS to review as mdwoods suggests, but let's face it that won't happen without a fee!

JJacks

gmarguli

JJacks, yes moderns are the exception to the rule. I've found NGC to be about the same as PCGS with 1964-to-before moderns. It is true that NGC will hand out the MS70 grade with ease. They're tough with PR70, but not political like PCGS.

For non-modern coins I think NGC is every bit on par with PCGS. Sure there is a series here and ther where PCGS is stricter, but the exact same can be said for NGC.

In the end it's "Buy the coin not the holder". However, that defeats the registry. I guess you can be a PCGS collector or a coin collector.

gmarguli

Greg- I don't know what your plans are for that "PR70DCAM" appeal coin- but I'd love to be a buyer.

I'm pretty sure I have a strong buyer already lined up for that coin. The cameo is stunning. I'll let you know. If you want a solid PR69DCAM (these are really super heavy cameos) let me know.

braddick

Thanks, but I know you have a good eye when it comes to spotting these PQ coins.
If your buyer falls through, let me know, otherwise I'll wait for the next opportunity.

IrishMike

This is an easy answer, they don't allow other graded coins into their registry because they don't have to. With 3800 plus sets and growing, it would be marketing suicide to do so. Do I agree with this, no. But then I don't own a share of their stock and it's their business decision. I may be stubborn and irrational about this, but I have no intention of registering any of my coins in their registry but I also don't fault others who take pleasure in doing so. Some of the most eye appealing coins I own are in NGC slabs and they will stay there. It's just plain aggravating to me that I would have to play the crack out game. Who knows who will be the market leader, even in the short run. I don't want to rely on a company that is bleeding red ink on its share prices to dictate to me that to have the finest sets of all time they have to be in their slabs. Having said all this I will continue to try and find the best coin that I desire, regardless of the slab. One last point, look at all the sellers that have popped up that sell high grade modern PCGS coins and seem to make a good living at it. They have filled a demand, but they always have a caveat in their advertising, such as I only buy PQ coins for the grade, or that I reject many coins because they aren't PQ for the grade. This flies in the face of PCGS stating that there is no such thing as PQ for the grade. (see Scott Traver's "Coin Collector's Survival Manual" page 85, quoted in a lette from David Hall to PCGS dealers).

michael

pcgs is a private company in the business to make money and promote their product
i would not have it any
other way
if you go to a ford dealer and ask them should you go down the road and buy a new honda at the honda dealer what will they say?
if you ask the ford dealer to sell you a new nissan will they direct you to a nissan dealer?

they pay their bills and make their livings on selling ford products

now it is called business and i am not saying it is right or wrong but think about it


sincerely michael

gmarguli

michael, that is a good point, but if that Honda dealer down the street will also sell you Fords, then there is no reason to go to the Ford dealer in the first place.

prooflike

I have gone to McDonald's and ordered a Whopper, they said they didn't have those...

Typetone

Plenty of car dealers have other brands on their used lot. So, let in some NGCs at a one point deduction. That way NGCs will not flood in. But if you have a key NGC piece, like Tradedollarnuts set, you can still get completion credit.

Greg

gmarguli

But if you have a key NGC piece, like Tradedollarnuts set, you can still get completion credit.

TDN just can't win. First the 1885 Eliasberg Trade dollar is graded higher when it is in the Eliasberg set than in TDN's set. Now TDN should be able to add his ex-Eliasberg 1885 $, but it will be knocked down a point. So the Eliasberg version of the coin will still be graded higher than his even though it is the same coin.

dbldie55

PCGS has an automatic system that recognizes the insert number to determine coin and grade. Cannot do that with an NGC number. This would require human intervention (cost $$$)

Why would they? The system is designed to make them money, how including a competitors product makes them money I do not know and this would cost them money.

Once the registry gets recognized for what it is "The worlds finest sets of coins graded by PCGS and listed with PCGS" and not "The worlds finest coin sets in existance today" which is absolutely a false statement they may change the rules (or the title).

braddick

dbdie55- PCGS stating "The Finest Sets in Existence Today" is simply puffery. I wouldn't expect them to change it.
All business's think they're the best.
Burger King thinks their Whopper is better than the BigMac and, "is the best burger on the planet today".
But, is it?

dbldie55

Never cared for Big Macs, although I did make a few hundred thousand of them. BK also will show a some survey they did to make the claim. McDonalds will show a different type of survey and show the result the other way. Since PCGS's registry forces coins to be in their holders, any results would be deemed invalid by anyone who knows statistics as the entire population of coins are not considered possible for the sets.

braddick

Excellent points other than PCGS doesn't force anyone to do anything with their coins.
It is by want the collector places his little Gems into PCGS holders.

lava

Regardless of where you come out on this point, this is a very important thread and I hope PCGS takes note and I hope there continues to be healthy debate. Maybe a poll would be in order. One choice would be under no circumstances do we allow NGC coins in. Another choice would be that we do allow NGC coins in. Other choices may fall somewhere in between. My own opinion is biased -- what best serves me. I collect only pl and dmpl morgans. I just acquired two very nice coins -- the 1892-S and the 1895-O. Both were slabbed pl by NGC. I couldn't find these coins in PCGS despite my efforts, and neither of my coins will crossover, since one is an au53 and one is an au55. They are nice and they are prooflike, but PCGS won't assign a pl designation on anything below 60. For a pl/dmpl set, recognizing only ms60 and above makes putting your set together pretty tough (yes, the `93-s awaits me, ughhhh). I don't mind taking a deduction for NGC, but I would like to get credit for acquiring two very very difficult to find coins.

Are you aware PCGS make exceptions right now? No, not other slabs. The morgan pl/dmpl set need only be 50% complete. In other words, the exception allows for 50% of your collection to be something else. I know PCGS is re-thinking some issues about the pl registry, and most of you don't care, but in a more general sense, PCGS is setting some rules that may have ramifications to your favorite set.

Also, does the debate end with NGC? How about ANACS? ANACS offers insured grades just like PCGS and NGC. Recognize them with a deduction? Something to think about?

IMHO, no other slabbing company besdies NGC and ANACS would merit recognition in a registry. There may be exceptions here and there on a coin by coin basis, but how do you police that? Can not. So, they all get excluded. Did someone really think an ACG coin should be recognized? Gee, I don't have enough TUMS to calm my stomach at that thought. There is that g1 set, or some oddball grade, but even that registry requires original coins, something you won't find in ACG slabs.

Well, let's keep the debate going. I sense that most of us would like to see at least some NGC coins recognized for registry purposes, but not necessarily at the same point value.

By the way, some of you might say "go to the NGC registry," but it is really a different world over there. I have my sets registered in both spots, as does GC. At PCGS we are neck and neck, but at NGC, he is way way ahead. Same collections competing, but no comparison in the results. Go figure?

lava

ttt

leothelyon

Here's the solution.
There needs to be an Olympic All Time Greatest Collection registry contest. This is where all the slabs from all the grading companies come together for that grand finale, once in a great lifetime christening kind of thing to see who has the best slabs…………I mean coins. Wow, what was I thinking? duh!

Leo

STOCKFORD

JUST TOO MUCH OF A HASSLE TO KEEP ALL THE OTHER GRADING SERVICES COINS!!!!!!