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Some CACG Statistics

DisneyFanDisneyFan Posts: 1,710 ✭✭✭✭✭
edited February 21, 2024 9:05PM in U.S. Coin Forum

I had a chance to review the current Classic Commemoratives population statistics for CACG. Given that these numbers don't include those coins "body bagged" for PVC, getting a PLUS grade from CACG is tough!

Total Graded 1215

Less: Details (201)

Straight Graded 1014

Grades Not Eligible for + (58)

Eligible for + 956
Awarded + Grade 102 = 11% of Population

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    VanHalenVanHalen Posts: 3,809 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Wouldn't this indicate a lot of "A" coins are not getting a +?

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    FlyingAlFlyingAl Posts: 2,853 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @VanHalen said:
    Wouldn't this indicate a lot of "A" coins are not getting a +?

    Basic math would dictate that CACG is incorrectly grading 39% of coins by not awarding them a plus grade. Half of the coins they grade over a large population should be "A" coins, and the other half should be "B" coins. There are supposedly no "C" coins in CACG holders, so long as such a thing ever existed (this is a grey area now).

    Of course, this would assume that CACG sees a fairly even distribution of A and B coins, which they generally should over 1000+ coins. This also assumes that CACG doesn't have a higher standard for what is an "A" coin. Without a doubt, the percentage should be nowhere near 11%. I'd say +/- 10% off that 50% mark is the tolerance if someone could truly separate coins into A and B subcategories.

    Young Numismatist, Coin Photographer.

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    scubafuelscubafuel Posts: 1,734 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Why should half be A coins? Unless they've stated differently, I don't think it's unusual that only the top ~10% of the coins they're willing to grade get a +. In fact for all we know that could be their target.

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    winestevenwinesteven Posts: 4,062 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited February 21, 2024 10:51PM

    @scubafuel said:
    Why should half be A coins? Unless they've stated differently, I don't think it's unusual that only the top ~10% of the coins they're willing to grade get a +. In fact for all we know that could be their target.

    In the past, JA indicated that roughly 25% of stickered coins were “A” coins. As @FlyingAl correctly points out, any TPG non-stickered “C” coins graded by CACG would not be in that same grade, but in theory would be moved to a lower grade (maybe even a “+” in that lower grade). However, that’s not to say the CAC perception is A, B, and C were equally 1/3 each. MAYBE the top 25% were A, the bottom 25% were C, and the middle 50% were B? IF that were the case, and CACG eliminates the C coins from that same grade number, then of the remaining, 1/3 (not 1/2) might be considered former A coins, possibly meriting a plus grade.

    However, the “C” coins from the next grade up that move down, could now possibly be “A” coins in this lowered grade, making @FlyingAl ‘s theory of 50/50 more likely!

    Steve

    A day without fine wine and working on your coin collection is like a day without sunshine!!!

    My collecting “Pride & Joy” is my PCGS Registry Dansco 7070 Set:
    https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/design-type-sets/complete-dansco-7070-modified-type-set-1796-date/publishedset/213996
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    VanHalenVanHalen Posts: 3,809 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited February 22, 2024 2:22AM

    CACG's narrative stated "A" coins would receive a + grade. PCGS has a completely different definition. Many expected a large number of + grades being issued based on direct statements from the company.

    Whether it's 30%, 40% or 50% that are "A" coins, (there are no "C" coins per CACG's narrative) really doesn't matter . The grading room at CACG has come up with very few + grades and thus very few "A" coins.

    Ubiquitous example: 1881-S Morgans. CACG has graded 297 pieces to date. 30 have received a + grade. You have 267 pieces graded as "B" or solid for the grade coins. 0 "C" coins and 30 "A" coins.

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    winestevenwinesteven Posts: 4,062 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Interesting analysis on the Commems @TomB , but I believe you’ve ignored any of the “older” whole graded coins potentially being sent in via Reconsideration, and getting a plus grade. I’ve had some success doing just that with my 50 coin Classic Silver Commem Type Set. Taking that concept into account would reduce the 9.5% result. Only if we knew how many of the older coins now have pluses would we know the reduction of that 9.5% figure.

    Steve

    A day without fine wine and working on your coin collection is like a day without sunshine!!!

    My collecting “Pride & Joy” is my PCGS Registry Dansco 7070 Set:
    https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/design-type-sets/complete-dansco-7070-modified-type-set-1796-date/publishedset/213996
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    291fifth291fifth Posts: 23,942 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Nothing but opinions.

    All glory is fleeting.
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    winestevenwinesteven Posts: 4,062 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @291fifth said:
    Nothing but opinions.

    Absolutely true! But some people's opinions are important to some people, much more so than opinions of some others!

    Steve

    A day without fine wine and working on your coin collection is like a day without sunshine!!!

    My collecting “Pride & Joy” is my PCGS Registry Dansco 7070 Set:
    https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/design-type-sets/complete-dansco-7070-modified-type-set-1796-date/publishedset/213996
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    TypekatTypekat Posts: 158 ✭✭✭

    And here’s another opinion:

    Even though (almost) every coin I buy is in a slab with a 1 to 70 grade on it, which largely determines the price I’ll have to pay for it, I’ll never buy the idea that grading is a measureable science.

    30+ years coin shop experience (ret.) Coins, bullion, currency, scrap & interesting folks. Loved every minute!

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    winestevenwinesteven Posts: 4,062 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Typekat said:
    And here’s another opinion:

    Even though (almost) every coin I buy is in a slab with a 1 to 70 grade on it, which largely determines the price I’ll have to pay for it, I’ll never buy the idea that grading is a measureable science.

    How about a "somewhat measurable art"?

    Steve

    A day without fine wine and working on your coin collection is like a day without sunshine!!!

    My collecting “Pride & Joy” is my PCGS Registry Dansco 7070 Set:
    https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/design-type-sets/complete-dansco-7070-modified-type-set-1796-date/publishedset/213996
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    TypekatTypekat Posts: 158 ✭✭✭

    @winesteven

    Sure, ‘a somewhat measurable art’ sounds about right.

    For instance, I’m happy to pass on, say, a 19th Century PR65 silver coin with brown and grey toning, in favor of a brilliant PR64. KNOWING that the PR64 was probably dipped at one time.

    If my next door neighbor Joe the Plumber would say the toned PR65 looks like it was in a fire, he and I basically see the coin the same way.

    30+ years coin shop experience (ret.) Coins, bullion, currency, scrap & interesting folks. Loved every minute!

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    DisneyFanDisneyFan Posts: 1,710 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @VanHalen said:
    CACG's narrative stated "A" coins would receive a + grade. PCGS has a completely different definition. Many expected a large number of + grades being issued based on direct statements from the company.

    Whether it's 30%, 40% or 50% that are "A" coins, (there are no "C" coins per CACG's narrative) really doesn't matter . The grading room at CACG has come up with very few + grades and thus very few "A" coins.

    Ubiquitous example: 1881-S Morgans. CACG has graded 297 pieces to date. 30 have received a + grade. You have 267 pieces graded as "B" or solid for the grade coins. 0 "C" coins and 30 "A" coins.

    To be precise, of the 297 1881-S Morgans CACG graded to date, 29 were detailed! 30 have received a + grade. Leaving 238 pieces graded as "B" or solid for the grade coins. We don't know how many were downgraded to "C" coins or "passed.".

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    Cougar1978Cougar1978 Posts: 7,637 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited February 22, 2024 9:02AM

    There is no doubt they are tough on them. I simply check number of CACG coins on eBay to gauge their market presence vs other TPG. A 10pct details result seems high to me.

    I want coins brilliant w super luster (so what if they were conserved / dipped) not the brown tarnished garbage (only gets worse with time).

    So Cali Area - Coins & Currency
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    winestevenwinesteven Posts: 4,062 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Cougar1978 said:
    There is no doubt they are tough on them. I simply check number of CACG coins on eBay to gauge their market presence vs other TPG.

    The "Volume" of CACG slabs compared to the other TPG slabs will always be tiny, so no need to waste your time doing that.

    As noted MANY times previously, the goal of CACG is not to compete in market share, but to have a reputation of consistent grading according to CACG standards. Collectors will always choose what to buy. As you continue to mention comparing volume, that will never be linked to the goal of CACG.

    Steve

    A day without fine wine and working on your coin collection is like a day without sunshine!!!

    My collecting “Pride & Joy” is my PCGS Registry Dansco 7070 Set:
    https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/design-type-sets/complete-dansco-7070-modified-type-set-1796-date/publishedset/213996
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    Cougar1978Cougar1978 Posts: 7,637 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited February 22, 2024 10:47AM

    Sort of like gentlemans club A charging higher entry, drinks, activities etc touting higher quality entertainers vs club b which is more popular, less expensive. In that scenario I would go w club B. Popularity trumps the other clubs sales pitch.

    So Cali Area - Coins & Currency
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    BryceMBryceM Posts: 11,733 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited February 22, 2024 9:27AM

    Sigh……

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    MFeldMFeld Posts: 12,053 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Cougar1978 said:
    Sort of like gentlemans club A charging higher entry, drinks, lap dances etc touting higher quality entertainers vs club b which is more popular, less expensive. In that scenario I would go w club B. Popularity trumps the other clubs sales pitch.

    Wrong forum for you, (again).

    Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.

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    winestevenwinesteven Posts: 4,062 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Cougar1978 said:
    Sort of like gentleman's club A charging higher entry, drinks, lap dances etc. touting higher quality entertainers vs club b which is more popular, less expensive. In that scenario I would go w club B. Popularity trumps the other clubs sales pitch.

    I'm glad to hear you enjoy your outings at Gentleman's Clubs ;)

    Steve

    A day without fine wine and working on your coin collection is like a day without sunshine!!!

    My collecting “Pride & Joy” is my PCGS Registry Dansco 7070 Set:
    https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/design-type-sets/complete-dansco-7070-modified-type-set-1796-date/publishedset/213996
  • Options
    DisneyFanDisneyFan Posts: 1,710 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Typekat said:

    For instance, I’m happy to pass on, say, a 19th Century PR65 silver coin with brown and grey toning, in favor of a brilliant PR64. KNOWING that the PR64 was probably dipped at one time.

    If my next door neighbor Joe the Plumber would say the toned PR65 looks like it was in a fire, he and I basically see the coin the same way.

    What CAC & CACG have done is removed the stigma of a coin being dipped by separating carefully, conservatively, and correctly dipped coins from coins that ended up being overdipped over the years.

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    FrankHFrankH Posts: 773 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @winesteven said:

    @291fifth said:
    Nothing but opinions.

    Absolutely true! But some people's opinions are important to some people, much more so than opinions of some others!

    Steve

    The true proof of that is the price of slabbing coins. :D

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    winestevenwinesteven Posts: 4,062 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @FrankH said:

    @winesteven said:

    @291fifth said:
    Nothing but opinions.

    Absolutely true! But some people's opinions are important to some people, much more so than opinions of some others!

    Steve

    The true proof of that is the price of slabbing coins. :D

    Actually, the true proof is the price people pay to buy those slabbed coins!

    Steve

    A day without fine wine and working on your coin collection is like a day without sunshine!!!

    My collecting “Pride & Joy” is my PCGS Registry Dansco 7070 Set:
    https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/design-type-sets/complete-dansco-7070-modified-type-set-1796-date/publishedset/213996
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    oldabeintxoldabeintx Posts: 1,636 ✭✭✭✭✭

    A random thought or two. Would there be a slight bias in these early days from Legacy coins being crossed? Also, given the perceived conservatism of CACG, might not a large number of non-Legacy crosses be submitted with a minimum grade stipulation, or not submitted at all, perhaps introducing a further bias? Said another way, if the quality of submissions is overall higher than the quality of submissions to other TPGs then might not more plusses be expected?

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    Coin FinderCoin Finder Posts: 6,953 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Interesting thread. I still like the pcgs plus sticker from CAC the best!

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    winestevenwinesteven Posts: 4,062 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited February 22, 2024 12:10PM

    @Coin Finder said:
    Interesting thread. I still like the pcgs plus sticker from CAC the best!

    A LOT of collectors agree, as do I. Since the PCGS Registry is important to me, that's how I buy. However, we agree that the sticker only confirms that in CAC's opinion the coin is ONLY solid for the whole grade, not necessarily solid as a plus. We just don't know, even though PCGS's opinion is that the coin merits a plus. As such, a CACG coin with a plus is different, as THAT means that CACG believes that coin is indeed solid as a plus!

    Steve

    A day without fine wine and working on your coin collection is like a day without sunshine!!!

    My collecting “Pride & Joy” is my PCGS Registry Dansco 7070 Set:
    https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/design-type-sets/complete-dansco-7070-modified-type-set-1796-date/publishedset/213996
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    Coin FinderCoin Finder Posts: 6,953 ✭✭✭✭✭

    CACG pops will increase when the sticker goes away. Plus grades are very important for reg sets with pcgs. The can elevate your set two spots in some cases.

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    winestevenwinesteven Posts: 4,062 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Coin Finder said:
    CACG pops will increase when the sticker goes away. Plus grades are very important for reg sets with pcgs. The can elevate your set two spots in some cases.

    Absolutely true, and that's why many of my Registry sets are ranked as high as they are. Roughly 60% of my coins eligible for a plus have a plus! Many of those I bought with a plus, but many pluses were obtained over the past decade via Reconsideration.

    Steve

    A day without fine wine and working on your coin collection is like a day without sunshine!!!

    My collecting “Pride & Joy” is my PCGS Registry Dansco 7070 Set:
    https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/design-type-sets/complete-dansco-7070-modified-type-set-1796-date/publishedset/213996
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    VanHalenVanHalen Posts: 3,809 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @DisneyFan said:

    @VanHalen said:
    CACG's narrative stated "A" coins would receive a + grade. PCGS has a completely different definition. Many expected a large number of + grades being issued based on direct statements from the company.

    Whether it's 30%, 40% or 50% that are "A" coins, (there are no "C" coins per CACG's narrative) really doesn't matter . The grading room at CACG has come up with very few + grades and thus very few "A" coins.

    Ubiquitous example: 1881-S Morgans. CACG has graded 297 pieces to date. 30 have received a + grade. You have 267 pieces graded as "B" or solid for the grade coins. 0 "C" coins and 30 "A" coins.

    To be precise, of the 297 1881-S Morgans CACG graded to date, 29 were detailed! 30 have received a + grade. Leaving 238 pieces graded as "B" or solid for the grade coins. We don't know how many were downgraded to "C" coins or "passed.".

    Okay. 268 were + eligible. 30 got a + so 238, or 88.8%, were "B" leaving 11.2% as "A" coins. These type of numbers bear out across many series.

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    Manifest_DestinyManifest_Destiny Posts: 3,700 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Cougar1978 said:
    Sort of like gentlemans club A charging higher entry, drinks, activities etc touting higher quality entertainers vs club b which is more popular, less expensive. In that scenario I would go w club B. Popularity trumps the other clubs sales pitch.

    And a cover charge to weed out the tire kickers.

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