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Trade Dollar Look Okay?

wondering from an authenticity standpoint

Usually I like to see die cracks as they lend a degree a credence towards authenticity, but I can find no similar die cracks on any other 1876 San Francisco type I reverses. I'm specifically referring to the one running from the T in TRADE to 4 in 420.

Weight is correct and fabric of the coin appears correct. In full disclosure, it was returned as 'no decision' by one of the P.A.N.I.C grading companies (PCGS, ANACS, NGC, ICG, CACG)

What are your thoughts?

www.brunkauctions.com

Comments

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    savoyspecialsavoyspecial Posts: 7,268 ✭✭✭✭


    www.brunkauctions.com

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    TurtleCatTurtleCat Posts: 4,594 ✭✭✭✭✭

    My gut feel is fake. I’m ok being wrong but I wouldn’t buy it.

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    I'm not qualified enough to have a good opinion. BUT the Rim details look off to me, the detail is too clean. a 150 year old coin's rim wouldnt look that good.
    I see a lot of clean details, and I do not see the "Age" on this coin.
    in my unqualfied opinion, it is likely a reproduction. It just looks too clean and fresh.

    The substantial truth doctrine is an important defense in defamation law that allows individuals to avoid liability if the gist of their statement was true.

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    DeplorableDanDeplorableDan Posts: 2,557 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    TennesseeDaveTennesseeDave Posts: 4,742 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Looks real to me.

    Trade $'s
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    lermishlermish Posts: 1,954 ✭✭✭✭✭

    It appears to be die pair C-18 as catalogued by @alefzero . At first glance the obverse right rim gave me pause but otherwise I don't see anything too problematic.

    At the same time, I would define my knowledge as "Intermediate". Any thoughts @crypto or @OriginalDan ?

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    lermishlermish Posts: 1,954 ✭✭✭✭✭


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    johnny9434johnny9434 Posts: 27,518 ✭✭✭✭✭

    It looks like it's to new material for something that old, to funky for me as well

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    coinkatcoinkat Posts: 22,795 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited February 15, 2024 3:39PM

    It way be the correct weight... I really do not like the coin. Trade Dollars are just not that rare or difficult to find and I suspect there are examples of the same date that are readily available that have a better look. I simply do not like the fields/surfaces that I see in the image. And the image might be part of the problem. I am stopping short of answering your question, but I am encouraging you to look at different Trade Dollars before selecting this one.

    Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.

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    braddickbraddick Posts: 23,127 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @TurtleCat said:
    My gut feel is fake. I’m ok being wrong but I wouldn’t buy it.

    I am the opposite. My gut feel is real.
    If the price was right I'd buy it.

    peacockcoins

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    lermishlermish Posts: 1,954 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @OriginalDan said:
    I think it's ok, but looks possibly whizzed or polished, which makes it look funky.

    +1

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    dcarrdcarr Posts: 8,007 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I think it is genuine, but it was corroded and cleaned.

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    tradedollarnuttradedollarnut Posts: 20,147 ✭✭✭✭✭

    It kinda looks cast to me.

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    DDRDDR Posts: 1,562 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Don't like it, potentially cast. I would stay away. This is a common date, and you can easily find nice examples that are not funky or suspicious.

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    lermishlermish Posts: 1,954 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @tradedollarnut said:
    Honestly, if you aren’t a professional or about a dozen or so amateur experts- never ever ever buy a trade dollar raw

    I am still learning and am NOT an expert and started off buying slabbed T$s exclusively.

    Once I had a bit of experience under my belt, some books, and a mentor or two, I felt more comfortable buying raw. And I've got some decent coins for my effort.

    But the time and effort needs to be there; I agree it's not something to be done casually

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    fathomfathom Posts: 1,513 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Even if the price was severely discounted I would pass. There are many of that date available certified, the extra cost would be a wise expense.

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    CryptoCrypto Posts: 3,409 ✭✭✭✭✭

    That’s real but alt surfaces. 125$ retail

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    ajaanajaan Posts: 17,124 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I wonder why the TPG couldn't determine if it is real or not.


    DPOTD-3
    'Emancipate yourselves from mental slavery'

    CU #3245 B.N.A. #428


    Don
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    lermishlermish Posts: 1,954 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @ajaan said:
    I wonder why the TPG couldn't determine if it is real or not.

    Often with heavily modified surfaces they will decline to authenticate because there is a chance something is going on and they can't be sure. I had a heavily polished 73 T$ that PCGS declined to authenticate once (but then changed their mind and authenticated later).

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    CryptoCrypto Posts: 3,409 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @lermish said:

    @ajaan said:
    I wonder why the TPG couldn't determine if it is real or not.

    Often with heavily modified surfaces they will decline to authenticate because there is a chance something is going on and they can't be sure. I had a heavily polished 73 T$ that PCGS declined to authenticate once (but then changed their mind and authenticated later).

    This, it is all based on risk aversion.

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    slider23slider23 Posts: 638 ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 16, 2024 4:48PM

    The coin does not appear to be a cast copy as there are no cast bumps that are typical on a cast copy. The fields on the coin have a strange appearance much like an orange peel surface. I considered the orange peel could have been done to hide the cast bumps, but the devices are mostly bump free. The coin does match the date and mint mark position and die crack between the 4 and T of the C18 die pair. The top of the E's in UNITED STATES are incomplete that do not match the C18 die pair. The denticles are suspect on the OP example. There is a die crack on reverse between the A and R that does not match the C18 die pair. The inconsistency between the C18 and OP example could be explained by the OP being a later die stage. The comments above are split on fake and genuine, and I am sure the same thing happened in the TPG grading room. I am with the TPG and no decision.

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    fiftysevenerfiftysevener Posts: 897 ✭✭✭✭

    I'm surprised to hear a few of you say these are easy to find. Maybe so but not so easy to find one that is not chopped, spotted, details or otherwise too dark for me. It's hard to get JA to like these but here is one of very few undergraded CAC coins.


    And here is a 76-S with the color I like.

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    lermishlermish Posts: 1,954 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @fiftysevener said:
    I'm surprised to hear a few of you say these are easy to find. Maybe so but not so easy to find one that is not chopped, spotted, details or otherwise too dark for me. It's hard to get JA to like these but here is one of very few undergraded CAC coins.

    Most of the comments were regarding the relative availability of a 76-S 1/1 vs other dates.

    I like both of your coins (color on the 76 is nice!) but the 78-S looks accurately graded. It appears to be a nice, textbook XF.

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    lkeneficlkenefic Posts: 7,831 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I am nowhere near an expert but the initial red flags to me were the surfaces and color. When I see this, I immediately start thinking about what's been hidden and I start to question authenticity... especially for a Type Coin that's heavily counterfeited! It looks real but the surfaces have been altered in some way... burnished, or cleaned, or tooled, or something just doesn't look right. If it's fake, it's a darn good one...

    BTW... I like the "PANIC" acronym... lol!

    Collecting: Dansco 7070; Middle Date Large Cents (VF-AU); Box of 20;

    Successful BST transactions with: SilverEagles92; Ahrensdad; Smitty; GregHansen; Lablade; Mercury10c; copperflopper; whatsup; KISHU1; scrapman1077, crispy, canadanz, smallchange, robkool, Mission16, ranshdow, ibzman350, Fallguy, Collectorcoins, SurfinxHI, jwitten, Walkerguy21D, dsessom.
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    fiftysevenerfiftysevener Posts: 897 ✭✭✭✭

    @lermish said:

    @fiftysevener said:
    I'm surprised to hear a few of you say these are easy to find. Maybe so but not so easy to find one that is not chopped, spotted, details or otherwise too dark for me. It's hard to get JA to like these but here is one of very few undergraded CAC coins.

    Most of the comments were regarding the relative availability of a 76-S 1/1 vs other dates.

    I like both of your coins (color on the 76 is nice!) but the 78-S looks accurately graded. It appears to be a nice, textbook XF.

    Yes agree but the 78-S appears to have similar detail to the the AU 50s I have.
    Sorry wasn't trying to derail the good thread and I see my 76-S is a T1 reverse.

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    Cougar1978Cougar1978 Posts: 7,640 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited February 17, 2024 5:41PM

    Fake. Stay away from it.

    So Cali Area - Coins & Currency
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    tradedollarnuttradedollarnut Posts: 20,147 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Hmmmmm.

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    slider23slider23 Posts: 638 ✭✭✭✭

    @tradedollarnut, If the rim seam is a casting seam, should there be a seam on the edge of the coin or evidence of removal of the seam?

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    goldengolden Posts: 9,067 ✭✭✭✭✭

    When it doubt pass!

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    ashelandasheland Posts: 22,694 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I am highly suspicious of it as well.
    If it is real, those surfaces are way wrong!

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    PerryHallPerryHall Posts: 45,442 ✭✭✭✭✭

    If the grading service thought that it was real, it would still get a details grade for the harsh cleaning in which case I would pass on that coin.

    Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.

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    PerryHallPerryHall Posts: 45,442 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @tradedollarnut said:
    Hmmmmm.

    I've seen that feature on many authentic coins where there is a slight gap between the die edge and the collar and some planchet metal is raised above the rim. An extreme example is the high relief Saint with the wire rim.

    Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.

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    tradedollarnuttradedollarnut Posts: 20,147 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Yes but have you seen it on a trade dollar? I personally can’t recall one

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    CryptoCrypto Posts: 3,409 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @tradedollarnut said:
    Yes but have you seen it on a trade dollar? I personally can’t recall one

    I have

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    slider23slider23 Posts: 638 ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 18, 2024 12:12PM

    The seam type of line is on a few of the 1876 S examples. Here is a AU58 PCGS with the line on the reverse:

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    savoyspecialsavoyspecial Posts: 7,268 ✭✭✭✭

    Thanks to everyone for their comments and examples. It came in as a potential consignment and since the reviews are split on this one, back it goes to the consignor. I will recommend that they consider donating it to someone like Jack Young who has done so much work with counterfeits. Thanks all!

    www.brunkauctions.com

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    braddickbraddick Posts: 23,127 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @lermish said:

    I don't know why this comment didn't receive the attention it deserves.

    peacockcoins

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    savoyspecialsavoyspecial Posts: 7,268 ✭✭✭✭

    True Braddick, I feel the same. @lermish found the exact reverse die and it even seems like it is approximately the same die state, or similar. Still, with as many on the fence votes, including one from a grading company, I think I will just opt to not offer the coin.

    www.brunkauctions.com

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