Haze - Is it PVC?

Project Numismatics

1921 Peace in a PCGS MS62 OGH. Have owned since mid-90s. Is the haze PVC? If so is this a candidate for PCGS conservation?

Coin is sentimental from my YN days - primary consideration is preservation, not maximizing value.

The red dot is ink on the holder.

davewesen

If it was, after 25 years there would be a little emerald green ball somewhere

PeakRarities

The reverse looks like pvc film to me, but im not really sure what other types of haze look like that either.

Project Numismatics

Thank you both for the thoughts so far. Couple more casual iPhone pics.

DisneyFan

It does appear to have PVC on the reverse (the eagle's wing and "PL"UR....). The risk with conservation is the coin may end up in a Details holder afterwards.

TheGoonies1985

If it is crack it out then acetone bath (100% pure acetone). Then either keep it raw in a 2 by 2 or send it back in for grading.

Personally I would be OK with such a sentimental coin just been in a 2 by 2 you will never sell it anyways. At least if it is PVC once you do the acetone bath it will never come back and your coin will not get damaged over time due to PVC. With a sentimental coin I would not risk sending it back to have it graded just in case the package happens to get lost or stolen. Just not worth the stress.

PeakRarities

Agree, if the primary consideration is preservation of the coin, it needs to be cracked and acetoned for sure.

TeddyTalks

Looks like PVC to me…I’ve been dealing with pvc on the Kennedy half dollars I inherited, wow it’s a lot but it’s with it to take it off —

You should search the thread I posted about my Kennedys, there are some great comments by people in this group and they helped a lot.

If it was my coin, I would crack it out of its case, do a 48 hours acetone bath (24 hours on one side, then 24 hours on the other — each time use a clean glass cointainer with fresh acetone).

Read about acetone before you use it, I’ve been using it on my balcony to air it out (benefits of living in southern ca).

Definitely check out the thread — lots of great points in there

TheGoonies1985

Acetone 100% pure some say 1-2 hours on each side is more than enough me with OCD I do 12 hours each side but that is most likely overkill. Glass bowl and metal lid or glass lid. Make sure there is no plastic on the inside of a metal lid.

When you turn the coin over use fresh acetone. And rinse under fresh acetone once the cycle is done then just let air dry. I was my dish each time with a paper towel and acetone just wipe it over. Throw the acetone outside (on cement it will evaporate fast) since indoor pipes are PVC and could damage them over time.

Then put the coin in a Mylar 2 by 2. The PVC will not come back.

Acetone is safe on the skin for short periods but it is flammable. I do not wear gloves when using acetone it touches my skin and never had any issues I just wash my hands afterwards.

Mason jars are good and cheap. Or these you can find on Amazon in sets of 2:

lermish

@DisneyFan said:
It does appear to have PVC on the reverse (the eagle's wing and "PL"UR....). The risk with conservation is the coin may end up in a Details holder afterwards.

This is not a concern if sent in for PCGS Conservation as the current grade is guaranteed (or potential upgrade).

PerryHall

It's in an old green PCGS slab. If the coin is stable, I'd leave it alone.

DisneyFan

That is correct; but, then if it is sent to CAC it might not CAC and if it's sent to CACG it might end up in a Details.

PerryHall

@DisneyFan said:
That is correct; but, then if it is sent to CAC it might not CAC and if it's sent to CACG it might end up in a Details.

Does CACG have a conservation service?

PeakRarities

@PerryHall said:

@DisneyFan said:
That is correct; but, then if it is sent to CAC it might not CAC and if it's sent to CACG it might end up in a Details.

Does CACG have a conservation service?

Not officially, though they will treat a stickered coin with PVC thats submitted for crossover.

Just curious, why do you think he should leave it alone? He said his primary concern is preservation of the coin, and IMO any old holder premium is negated with PVC haze. It also looks like it has clean fields, and depending on how the cheek scratch looks in hand, maybe even a possible upgrade? Ive seen worse looking 1921s in ms63 holders.

Connecticoin

Like others mentioned, I would crack it and Acetone it, which is what PCGS conservation would do, so save the $$$ and DYI.

PerryHall

I'm not convinced it's PVC residue. That haze looks like it may have been puttied which can be easily removed with acetone. I just hate to see an old vintage slab get destroyed. Of course, if that haze isn't stable and is getting progressively worse, crack it out and give it an acetone bath.

Crypto

@PerryHall said:
I'm not convinced it's PVC residue. That haze looks like it may have been puttied which can be easily removed with acetone. I just hate to see an old vintage slab get destroyed. Of course, if that haze isn't stable and is getting progressively worse, crack it out and give it an acetone bath.

Have you ever seen putty on silver coin? I’m not sure I have

davewesen

I have seen 'haze' on older slabs from years of handling and 'cleaning' for pics.

Is that a red dot below WE or on the slab?

cameonut2011

I’m going to disagree with those saying to crack it. I would send it to PCGS conservation to bathe it in acetone for you so you are protected by the guarantee if there is a nasty surprise hidden by the haze. JA once told me that many coin doctors would intentionally harvest PVC to use on coins to obscure underlying problems. I’d also rather have the same cert number as the pictures of the OGH so you could state it was reholdered by sort of somewhat preserving the appeal of having been graded in a more “conservative” era of coin grading.

Crypto

@cameonut2011 said:
I’m going to disagree with those saying to crack it. I would send it to PCGS conservation to bathe it in acetone for you so you are protected by the guarantee if there is a nasty surprise hidden by the haze. JA once told me that many coin doctors would intentionally harvest PVC to use on coins to obscure underlying problems. I’d also rather have the same cert number as the pictures of the OGH so you could state it was reholdered by sort of somewhat preserving the appeal of having been graded in a more “conservative” era of coin grading.

The best thing to do with that coin is list it on eBay or great collections and let somebody chase the OGH and then use the money to buy a better one. Trying to fix it is throwing good money towards bad and it will never be worth what it is now.

PeakRarities

@Crypto said:

@cameonut2011 said:
I’m going to disagree with those saying to crack it. I would send it to PCGS conservation to bathe it in acetone for you so you are protected by the guarantee if there is a nasty surprise hidden by the haze. JA once told me that many coin doctors would intentionally harvest PVC to use on coins to obscure underlying problems. I’d also rather have the same cert number as the pictures of the OGH so you could state it was reholdered by sort of somewhat preserving the appeal of having been graded in a more “conservative” era of coin grading.

The best thing to do with that coin is list it on eBay or great collections and let somebody chase the OGH and then use the money to buy a better one. Trying to fix it is throwing good money towards bad and it will never be worth what it is now.

But you’re overlooking the key element of the thread, this coin has sentimental value to OP.

DisneyFan

@Crypto said:

The best thing to do with that coin is list it on eBay or great collections and let somebody chase the OGH and then use the money to buy a better one. Trying to fix it is throwing good money towards bad and it will never be worth what it is now.

@DeplorableDan said:

But you’re overlooking the key element of the thread, this coin has sentimental value to OP.

That's the trade off.

Project Numismatics

@PerryHall said:
It's in an old green PCGS slab. If the coin is stable, I'd leave it alone.

It's been stable for at least 10 years.> @Crypto said:

@cameonut2011 said:
I’m going to disagree with those saying to crack it. I would send it to PCGS conservation to bathe it in acetone for you so you are protected by the guarantee if there is a nasty surprise hidden by the haze. JA once told me that many coin doctors would intentionally harvest PVC to use on coins to obscure underlying problems. I’d also rather have the same cert number as the pictures of the OGH so you could state it was reholdered by sort of somewhat preserving the appeal of having been graded in a more “conservative” era of coin grading.

The best thing to do with that coin is list it on eBay or great collections and let somebody chase the OGH and then use the money to buy a better one. Trying to fix it is throwing good money towards bad and it will never be worth what it is now.

Selling is not under consideration. The question is now to best enjoy this coin by figuring out exactly what’s going on and what to do (or not do) about it.

Appreciate all the thoughts.!

DisneyFan

Then as > @lermish said:

...PCGS Conservation as the current grade is guaranteed (or potential upgrade).

MetroD

@lermish said:

@DisneyFan said:
It does appear to have PVC on the reverse (the eagle's wing and "PL"UR....). The risk with conservation is the coin may end up in a Details holder afterwards.

This is not a concern if sent in for PCGS Conservation as the current grade is guaranteed (or potential upgrade).

Sincere question, NOT snark.

The PCGS "restoration" submission form says:

Source: Section #6 @ https://www.pcgs.com/submissionform/restorationcoin.pdf

However, the PCGS "guarantee" does not cover "environmental deterioration".

Source: https://www.pcgs.com/guarantee

Doesn't this imply it is POSSIBLE for a straight-graded submission to PCGS for restoration to come back as a "no grade" due to PVC damage that occurred after the initial encapsulation (without any compensation)?

Note - I realize that the priority in this case is preservation. My query is simply an attempt to better understand the general process for PCGS restoration.

lermish

@MetroD said:

@lermish said:

@DisneyFan said:
It does appear to have PVC on the reverse (the eagle's wing and "PL"UR....). The risk with conservation is the coin may end up in a Details holder afterwards.

This is not a concern if sent in for PCGS Conservation as the current grade is guaranteed (or potential upgrade).

Sincere question, NOT snark.

The PCGS "restoration" submission form says:

Source: Section #6 @ https://www.pcgs.com/submissionform/restorationcoin.pdf

However, the PCGS "guarantee" does not cover "environmental deterioration".

Source: https://www.pcgs.com/guarantee

Doesn't this imply it is POSSIBLE for a straight-graded submission to PCGS for restoration to come back as a "no grade" due to PVC damage that occurred after the initial encapsulation (without any compensation)?

Note - I realize that the priority in this case is preservation. My query is simply an attempt to better understand the general process for PCGS restoration.

Legit question. All of the info can be found here and seems pretty cut and dry. https://www.pcgs.com/restoration

ALL seems definitive to me.

EDIT: The PCGS guarantee is different than a grade guarantee on restoration or regrade submissions.

MetroD

@lermish said:
Legit question. All of the info can be found here and seems pretty cut and dry. https://www.pcgs.com/restoration

ALL seems definitive to me.

EDIT: The PCGS guarantee is different than a grade guarantee on restoration or regrade submissions.

Thanks for the response. I appreciate it.

I saw the parts about the "guarantee" on the restoration page (i.e., step #3, and the highlighted line). Took that to mean that the RESTORED coin would be covered by the PCGS guarantee, at the newly assigned grade.

I acknowledge that our host "guarantees" PCGS-holdered coins will not downgrade when submitted for restoration. This guarantee, however, appears to be detailed on the restoration submission form. The section I posted earlier suggests that submitted coins are subject to the terms of the "PCGS Guarantee", complete with exceptions.

I could very well be wrong, but doesn't the guarantee, as defined on the restoration submission form as the PCGS Guarantee, mean an incoming coin that exhibits environmental deterioration could, theoretically, downgrade, or even no-grade, without a payout?

lermish

@MetroD said:

@lermish said:
Legit question. All of the info can be found here and seems pretty cut and dry. https://www.pcgs.com/restoration

ALL seems definitive to me.

EDIT: The PCGS guarantee is different than a grade guarantee on restoration or regrade submissions.

Thanks for the response. I appreciate it.

I saw the parts about the "guarantee" on the restoration page (i.e., step #3, and the highlighted line). Took that to mean that the RESTORED coin would be covered by the PCGS guarantee, at the newly assigned grade.

I acknowledge that our host "guarantees" PCGS-holdered coins will not downgrade when submitted for restoration. This guarantee, however, appears to be detailed on the restoration submission form. The section I posted earlier suggests that submitted coins are subject to the terms of the "PCGS Guarantee", complete with exceptions.

I could very well be wrong, but doesn't the guarantee, as defined on the restoration submission form as the PCGS Guarantee, mean an incoming coin that exhibits environmental deterioration could, theoretically, downgrade, or even no-grade, without a payout?

No, they cannot downgrade or no-grade without payout.

The PCGS Guarantee exceptions you posted are relating to if a coin can be returned for problems and if the returner can receive a partial or total buyout of the coin. This would apply if you send in a coin for Guarantee Resubmission.

The Conservation guarantee for PCGS holdered coins guarantees that a conserved coin will not receive a downgrade. The coin, once reholdered, would now potentially be eligible or not for Guarantee Resubmission if an issue pops up.

I suppose that if a currently PCGS holdered coin was so badly gone that even after restoration they did not want to reholder it, they could offer to buy it to take it off the market. But one cannot just randomly lose value by sending in an already graded PCGS coin for conservation.