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Doubled Die, or Machine Doubling?

124Spider124Spider Posts: 789 ✭✭✭✭✭

Hi,

In examining my coins carefully to see which ones should be submitted to CAC, the dealer yesterday rejected this XF45 1921-D Mercury dime for that, but found doubling that he suspects is real (die) doubling. He suggested that I submit it to Variety Vista for his opinion.

I thought I'd at least ask for opinions here before bothering James Wiles. :)

The doubling is around the edge of the obverse. It's particularly strong on the "R," "T" and "Y" of "LIBERTY," but it's also evident on other letters and the date. I see little (or no) sign of doubling on the motto. It appears to be stronger on the right side of the obverse.

Thanks in advance for your input. I apologize a bit for the photo; I don't have a macro lens or a light box, but I do have some skills and excellent equipment for landscape and wildlife photography (which is how the equipment normally is employed).

Mark

Comments

  • DeplorableDanDeplorableDan Posts: 2,474 ✭✭✭✭✭

    MD because I don't even see a DDO variety that exists for 1921-D.

  • 124Spider124Spider Posts: 789 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @DeplorableDan said:
    MD because I don't even see a DDO variety that exists for 1921-D.

    I also didn't see a DDO variety for the 1921-D. But it is possible (however unlikely) that it hasn't been found before, so I'd appreciate an opinion based on what it looks like, not on the fact that nobody else has reported such a thing.

    Thanks (and I'm not intending to be snarky).

    :)

  • Manifest_DestinyManifest_Destiny Posts: 3,009 ✭✭✭✭✭

    MD

  • ifthevamzarockinifthevamzarockin Posts: 8,498 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Looks like machine doubling to me.

  • DeplorableDanDeplorableDan Posts: 2,474 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 23, 2024 11:43AM

    @124Spider said:

    @DeplorableDan said:
    MD because I don't even see a DDO variety that exists for 1921-D.

    I also didn't see a DDO variety for the 1921-D. But it is possible (however unlikely) that it hasn't been found before, so I'd appreciate an opinion based on what it looks like, not on the fact that nobody else has reported such a thing.

    Thanks (and I'm not intending to be snarky).

    :)

    Completely understandable, I'm certainly not the expert for that so lets wait for further assistance :) . It is pretty severe MD, my first impression was ddo for what its worth.

  • AUandAGAUandAG Posts: 24,485 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I don't see any split serifs so I'll go with MD. Machine, mechanical, shelf, etc.

    bob :)
    vegas, baby!

    Registry: CC lowballs (boblindstrom), [email protected]
  • IkesTIkesT Posts: 2,359 ✭✭✭✭✭

    MD

  • coinkatcoinkat Posts: 22,665 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Looks as if it was graded by NGC- I suspect if it were a DDO, they would have caught it. To me it looks like machine doubling but it never hurts to share and solicit the thoughts of others. Looks to be a decent 21-D. You can always expand the topic by posting an image of the reverse and the thread can transform into GTG.

    Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.

  • sellitstoresellitstore Posts: 2,362 ✭✭✭✭✭

    The waviness in the doubling, particularly in the "E", "R" and top of "T" tells me machine doubling. A doubled die would have two sharp, straight, repeated impressions without the distortion seen on this coin.

    Also, the number of die pairs on keys like this are limited and can often be identified by other markers. I don't know if specific obverse dies for the 21D have been identified but a new die would be very, very unlikely considering how many of this date have been scrutinized.

    Collector and dealer in obsolete currency. Always buying all obsolete bank notes and scrip.
  • 124Spider124Spider Posts: 789 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Ok; thanks!

  • CryptoCrypto Posts: 3,344 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Absolutely MD, @AUandAG nailed it

    Interesting LDS that might have played a part in it, note die crack in neck. Really nice coin btw. One of the better dates in the series

  • JimnightJimnight Posts: 10,675 ✭✭✭✭✭

    MD

  • silviosisilviosi Posts: 444 ✭✭✭

    Looking overal to this coin, I will say it is an Die Deterioration Doubling, which generic it is included in MD.

    PS: Hard for me to believe that after 100 years more, a new variety will be find.

    NEVER ARGUE WITH AN IDIOT.FIRST THEY WILL DRAG YOU DOWN TO THEIR LEVEL.THEN, THEY WILL BEAT YOU WITH EXPERIENCE. MARK TWAIN

  • OAKSTAROAKSTAR Posts: 5,456 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @ifthevamzarockin said:
    Looks like machine doubling to me.

    No way! How can you see anything from there? 😉


    Sorry, I gotta go. My probation officer is at the door! 🤣

    Disclaimer: I'm not a dealer, trader, grader, investor or professional numismatist. I'm just a hobbyist. (To protect me but mostly you! 🤣 )

  • jesbrokenjesbroken Posts: 9,027 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Yes, D³. But I do like the coin very much. It is a bit of an extreme form of the doubling and in a rarer coin. I think you will enjoy owning it and I would expect somewhat of a premium before I would sell it. Might not get it, but hopefully you will not need to sell it at all. Thanks for sharing.
    Jim


    When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln

    Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
  • TomBTomB Posts: 20,608 ✭✭✭✭✭

    You have the coin in-hand, but my first impression is that it is absolutely machine doubling. I realize Variety Vista doesn't have a DD listed for this issue, but I agree with you that one could still be found. After all, we have had at least one new Overton die marriage found by a member of this board and posted here prior to its inclusion, at least one DD Mercury dime discovered in a similar manner by a forum member and at least one prototype Ike dollar, as well.

    However, I am curious as to why the dealer thought this 1921-D NGC EF45 should not be sent to CAC. Your image is a bit washed out, and there is only an obverse image, but if it appears in-hand as I interpret it then I would have sent it to CAC.

    Thomas Bush Numismatics & Numismatic Photography

    In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson

    image
  • TomBTomB Posts: 20,608 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @OAKSTAR AND @ifthevamzarockin, what happened with the bars and locked door?

    Thomas Bush Numismatics & Numismatic Photography

    In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson

    image
  • OAKSTAROAKSTAR Posts: 5,456 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @TomB said:
    @OAKSTAR AND @ifthevamzarockin, what happened with the bars and locked door?

    Someone ratted us out!! There's a Benedict Arnold among us!

    Disclaimer: I'm not a dealer, trader, grader, investor or professional numismatist. I'm just a hobbyist. (To protect me but mostly you! 🤣 )

  • ifthevamzarockinifthevamzarockin Posts: 8,498 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @TomB said:
    @OAKSTAR AND @ifthevamzarockin, what happened with the bars and locked door?

    I was a bad dog and peed on the carpet. :|

  • JWPJWP Posts: 16,451 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 24, 2024 8:40PM

    @OAKSTAR
    @ifthevamzarockin When I was in the Navy, the marines used to give the Brig Rats bug juice and donuts after the captain put them on bread and water rations. Eat and enjoy guys. :D I forgot to ask - Is emeraldATV locked up in there too.

    USN & USAF retired 1971-1993
    Successful Transactions with more than 100 Members

  • ifthevamzarockinifthevamzarockin Posts: 8,498 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Anyone got an extra "get out of jail free" card? :D

  • JWPJWP Posts: 16,451 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @ifthevamzarockin You could buy a monopoly game

    USN & USAF retired 1971-1993
    Successful Transactions with more than 100 Members

  • ifthevamzarockinifthevamzarockin Posts: 8,498 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @JWP said:
    @ifthevamzarockin You could buy a monopoly game

    If I have to buy a Monopoly game then it's not free to get out of jail. ;)

  • PizzamanPizzaman Posts: 211 ✭✭✭
    edited January 25, 2024 8:57AM

    It's from the strike, not the die. The underlying images are too flat to have come from the die. The inferior and superior images would be the same height if they came off the die.

  • PizzamanPizzaman Posts: 211 ✭✭✭

    @JeffersonFrog said:
    I echo the machine doubling opinion, but it's nice/prominent doubling. There's also a nice die crack down the front neckline. I don't remember who created this picture, but it always helps me with the MD v. DD question.

    "Nice/prominent doubling" that's just the consequence of a sloppy strike. I mean, if that's your thing.

  • OAKSTAROAKSTAR Posts: 5,456 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @ifthevamzarockin We gotta catch the midnight express outta here!

    Disclaimer: I'm not a dealer, trader, grader, investor or professional numismatist. I'm just a hobbyist. (To protect me but mostly you! 🤣 )

  • DeplorableDanDeplorableDan Posts: 2,474 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @OAKSTAR said:
    @ifthevamzarockin We gotta catch the midnight express outta here!

    Hang tight, Ill put some money on the books for you both. Enjoy a honey bun or a Slim Jim on me :smile:

  • ifthevamzarockinifthevamzarockin Posts: 8,498 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @DeplorableDan I thought you were the one that posted my bail... check my cell it's empty. ;)

  • CRHer700CRHer700 Posts: 407 ✭✭✭✭

    Why are so many people being locked up or banned?
    I’ve been off for a few days, so I don’t know what happened.

    Cheers, CRHer700 :mrgreen:

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