CAC Poll

DisneyFan

I've noticed we currently have several CAC discussions going on. No surprise because the merits of CAC and CACG are always being debated. Perhaps this is a good time to ask forum members whether they are actually utilizing CAC services.

Because CAC is controversial, this poll is anonymous. Your votes will not be made public,

winesteven

I’ve been submitting coins to CAC since the beginning, as I was one of the first Collector submitters approved. I did this because my grading skills are not the best, and I’d rather do other things with my time than spend hundreds of hours learning, when there are viable alternatives, like TPG’s and CAC.

TPG’s and CAC, while not perfect, provide me with peace of mind that the coins I purchase are authentic and “accurately” graded. Naturally, I MUST like the eye appeal, or I won’t buy the coin. There are thousands of coins that are in the date and grade I’m looking for that I pass on, simply because I don’t like the eye appeal.

Back in the ‘70’s, I was a big fan of the ANACS photo certificates, that graded each side of a coin. In the mid ‘80’s, I became a big fan of the TPG’s. Other collectors, and dealers, pooh-poohed the idea. But not me. I hated when dealers would sell me coins at a particular grade, but say the grade was lower when buying them back! The TPG concept greatly minimized that.

I also tend to have the “dropsies”, so having a coin in a sturdy holder minimizes damage to coins. Now I’m way off topic, lol.

Steve

oldsmagnet

There should maybe be an edit or clarification here regarding actual grading through CAC, vs sending a slabbed coin there to get their greenbean sticker. (Or have they discontinued that option now that they're doing full grading services?)

skamieniecki

I will submit only to have the bean replaced after I've reholdered for whatever reason

etexmike

I really like the CAC stickers on my coins. I tried for the little bean on all of them but the purchases have slowed in recent years and because of that so have the submissions.

etexmike

DisneyFan

@oldsmagnet said:
There should maybe be an edit or clarification here regarding actual grading through CAC, [CACG]. vs sending a slabbed coin there to get their greenbean sticker. [CAC}. (Or have they discontinued that option now that they're doing full grading services?)

Two different services and locations. For more information, check the U.S. Coin Forum

SMY_Utah_Collection

@oldsmagnet said:
There should maybe be an edit or clarification here regarding actual grading through CAC, vs sending a slabbed coin there to get their greenbean sticker. (Or have they discontinued that option now that they're doing full grading services?)

I recently sold a few of my doubles as I upgraded my set and GC sent mine in for the CAC sticker they thought warranted it. This was in the last 2 months so I do know that service still exists

oldsmagnet

^^^which still doesn't clarify the poll above -- There's a few coins in my collection I'd consider sending off to get stickered, but absolutely none I'll waste my time or money cracking out and letting them downgrade drastically. I'm assuming that's the service the poll is referencing, but that's also still just an assumption

DisneyFan

CAC and CACG are two different services and have two different locations. You do not want to send your coins to CACG.

You really need to check out the U.S. Coin Forum for more information about the two services. This poll on this Forum had 17 votes. The same poll on the U.S. Coin Forum had 113 votes. It's a much more active forum.

oldsmagnet

@DisneyFan said:
This poll on this Forum had 17 votes. The same poll on the U.S. Coin Forum had 113 votes. It's a much more active forum.

Wait, aren't you the one who put this poll "here"? And yes, two different services -- WHICH ONE is YOUR poll referencing??? That's all I'm asking. Is THIS poll referencing the green bean sticker? Or is THIS poll referencing the new grading branch?

DisneyFan

@oldsmagnet said:

@DisneyFan said:
This poll on this Forum had 17 votes. The same poll on the U.S. Coin Forum had 113 votes. It's a much more active forum.

Wait, aren't you the one who put this poll "here"? And yes, two different services -- WHICH ONE is YOUR poll referencing??? That's all I'm asking. Is THIS poll referencing the green bean sticker? Or is THIS poll referencing the new grading branch?

CAC - green bean sticker
CACG - grading

Poll is referring to CAC

oldsmagnet

That was the question I was after. I suspect I'm not the only one who interpreted that differently. I don't know that the stickers are particularly controversial, especially compared to their grading reviews. You can remove one of the "never" votes if you'd like, and move it to the "no current plans" (I'm doubting that's an editable thing though...)

Ringtail

Hello Everyone,
This is my very first post upon this site, and let me say I am far for an expert upon anything. That being said I still have an opinion regarding coin grading as a whole. I think if CAC would create a data base that would indicate if a coin graded by another grading service, and had been preveously submitted to CAC for sticker consideration, and if that coin was approved, or denied stickering. This would give CAC so much ligitemecy within the industry, and show a considerable amount respect for the coin trade in whole.
I know if this data base was in place, then I would gladly pay more to sticker a coin if I knew up front that the coin/coins I would be submitting were fresh, and not coins that have already been processed before. The benifit for CAC would be more time with coins being submitted for the first time, thus not wading through a droves of coins that most likely will never see a sticker. I feel CAC could chrage more for services, and actually handle fewer coins, while adding legitmacey too the industry that would benifit all parties.

Thank you,
Ringtail

DisneyFan

@Ringtail said:

I think if CAC would create a data base that would indicate if a coin graded by another grading service, and had been preveously submitted to CAC for sticker consideration, and if that coin was approved, or denied stickering... if I knew up front that the coin/coins I would be submitting were fresh, and not coins that have already been processed before.

Welcome to the forums. This has been discussed many, many times on the U.S. Coin Forum with pro and con points such as yours. The best summation of CAC I have seen is:

"...the small investment required to get some truly experienced eyes to review (sticker) coins at a much slower rate than they are reviewed (graded) through the TPGs."

winesteven

While I agree with the validity of what my friend @DisneyFan says above, my understanding is that CAC has said many times that they don’t want to officially put a “Scarlet Letter A” on the coins they failed. That would then make it even more difficult for the owners of those coins to sell those coins for somewhat fair value.

Steve

Ringtail

@winesteven said:
While I agree with the validity of what my friend @DisneyFan says above, my understanding is that CAC has said many times that they don’t want to officially put a “Scarlet Letter A” on the coins they failed. That would then make it even more difficult for the owners of those coins to sell those coins for somewhat fair value.

Steve

Okay, but then again that could be said for those that are actually holding higher grade coins. How much more value might those people realize? Without such a tool available it kind of supports a false market, so is that what we want out of a grading company ? Let the grading company grade coins, good , bad, or ugly, and then let the rest of us set the market. Thanks,
Ringtail

winesteven

@Ringtail said:

@winesteven said:
While I agree with the validity of what my friend @DisneyFan says above, my understanding is that CAC has said many times that they don’t want to officially put a “Scarlet Letter A” on the coins they failed. That would then make it even more difficult for the owners of those coins to sell those coins for somewhat fair value.

Steve

Okay, but then again that could be said for those that are actually holding higher grade coins. How much more value might those people realize? Without such a tool available it kind of supports a false market, so is that what we want out of a grading company? Let the grading company grade coins, good , bad, or ugly, and then let the rest of us set the market. Thanks,
Ringtail

Apparently JA disagrees, in support of the collectors who own the coins that failed.

Regarding your point, I’m not sure I’m interpreting it correctly. Are you saying that collectors who own higher grade, but unstickered coins that have never actually been submitted to CAC, results in an artificially low CAC Pop table for coins in those high grades? If by chance that’s your point, then the decision by those collectors to not submit those high value coins at a cost of just a few dollars is directly hurting THEM (or their heirs) if it turns out those coins merit CAC stickers. Due to the personal financial benefit one receives from having ones coins that merit stickers actually get stickered, is what minimizes a false market for stickered coins.

As noted, I may have misunderstood your point, and if so, I welcome clarification. Regardless, thanks for posting, and “Welcome”.

Steve

Ringtail

Regarding your point, I’m not sure I’m interpreting it correctly. Are you saying that collectors who own higher grade, but unstickered coins that have never actually been submitted to CAC, results in an artificially low CAC Pop table for coins in those high grades? If by chance that’s your point, then the decision by those collectors to not submit those high value coins at a cost of just a few dollars is directly h Due to the personal financial benefit one receives from having ones coins that merit stickers actually get stickered, is what minimizes a false market for stickered coins.

As noted, I may have misunderstood your point, and if so, I welcome clarification. Regardless, thanks for posting, and “Welcome”.

Steve

Steve,
I geuss I am just wondering how many times a person needs to have a coin graded ?? I mean if the first grade is correct, then some other grader is saying yes that's the grade, then why on earth would that add any value? The coin is still that grade !! I purchase coins, but I feel some may place more value upon the company that has actually done the grading rather than the coin, and that I feel is the wrong approach. A whole market of grading coins is becoming larger than the coin market itself.

I am no expert unpon anything, and I never have claimed knowing how to solve all problems. LOL Thanks for the reply Steve, and thanks for the welcome, hoping to learn more everyday if possiable.

Ringtail

winesteven

@Ringtail , to some extent I agree with you. However, "the market" recognizes that possibly due to the "short" time period the major TPG graders take to grade each coin, sometimes there are errors, at least in the opinion of graders at CAC, whose opinions many in the numismatic community give great weight to.

More often though, there are coins that all parties agree are correctly graded, but in the opinion of CAC, the TPG coin may be at the very low end of that proper grade. Coins that in the opinion of CAC that are "solid for the grade" are identified by CAC by having their sticker. Separately, some coins undergo "surface treatments" to enhance the eye appeal. In many cases those surface treatments are acceptable to the TPG's, but not to the people at CAC.

With the two items I mentioned in the paragraph just above, many collectors don't care, and that's perfectly fine. However, the reality of the market is that a growing body of collectors do indeed care, as they (including myself) prefer to have coins in our collections that are solid for the grade and not at the low end (at least in the opinion of CAC), and we also prefer our coins, especially gold coins, to not have undergone those surface treatments.

As noted, there's no right and wrong as to what collectors choose to collect. Separately, I'm still baffled by those who prefer low ball sets, where they get pleasure from their collection if it consists of the worst coins (those in the lowest grades, where you can barely see any details.

Steve

Ringtail

Steve,
Could you please educate me if your able. LOL The fella that started/founded PCGS did he not also have a hand in NGC as well ? Is this also the same person that is responsable for CAC ??

Ringtail

winesteven

Yes. John Albanese, whose reputation as a grader is top notch, was one of the originators of both PCGS and NGC.

There came a point around 2007 or so, that he became concerned at the grades he saw then coming out of those two TPG’s. Some in our hobby refer to that as “gradeflation”. That was the impetus for the beginning of CAC. The fees they charged for stickering were extremely low, and were not designed to provide significant profits. JA’s goal was to make a wholesale market in stickered coins - coins that in his opinion represented coins solid for the grade - based on standards used around the inception of PCGS and NGC.

Over time, the demand for CAC stickered coins has grown significantly, and that has caused as a generalization a growing “premium” price differential between stickered coins and coins in the same grade that are non-stickered. This pricing differential is small or non existent for low grade common coins, but grows as grades increase.

I hope you found this helpful.

Steve

Ringtail

Steve, thank you sir, and yes that was very helpful. I have a lot to learn, and I enjoy the chance speaking with people that are far more knowlegable than myself in matters like this.

"JA’s goal was to make a wholesale market in stickered coins - coins that in his opinion represented coins solid for the grade - based on standards used around the inception of PCGS and NGC."

I wonder why Mr Albanese started grading coins at CAC, when it seems like he was achieving his goal via stickering coins. Why jump into a pool that some people may think is already crowded ?? LOL I think if he had created a data base like I had mentioned , and continued stickering coins, then I feel he would have been successful in his endevor.

I wonder if over time CAC just becomes just another TPG with the same pitfalls as the other TPG's ?
I wonder what might be different this time around for Mr. Albanese ? Maybe the third time is the charm. LOL I am sure he is way more knowledgable in these matters than when he first started out, and that kind of insight in creating something maybe not new, but different could be invalubale. I think they call it experience. LOL

Ringtail

winesteven

My sense is two-fold:

1. Several years ago JA mentioned in an interview that in his opinion at that time that CAC had seen about 90% of classic coins that collectors would submit (recognizing there are raw coins deep in collections that collectors had no intention of submitting), and most of what was being submitted for stickering at that time were either coins that were previously submitted and failed, or coins being regraded and put in holders with new cert numbers. He indicated at that time that he believed within ten years he would stop stickering. Subsequently, he backed off of that prediction.
2. He feels there’s a niche with a demand for a new TPG that would grade consistently and conservatively at the same level used by CAC stickering!

Have a nice weekend.

Steve

Ringtail

Thank you Steve, you have a great weekend as well. My wife has a long list for me this weekend. I guess that is my punishment for upgrading my collection this week. LOL

Ringtail

winesteven

Ha! Just remember, “Happy wife, happy life”.

Steve

johnny9434

i have coins that i will never send in for slabbing and what i do have i dont feel to spend extra on it, just saying

SharpStrikes

@winesteven said:
I’ve been submitting coins to CAC since the beginning, as I was one of the first Collector submitters approved. I did this because my grading skills are not the best, and I’d rather do other things with my time than spend hundreds of hours learning, when there are viable alternatives, like TPG’s and CAC.

TPG’s and CAC, while not perfect, provide me with peace of mind that the coins I purchase are authentic and “accurately” graded. Naturally, I MUST like the eye appeal, or I won’t buy the coin. There are thousands of coins that are in the date and grade I’m looking for that I pass on, simply because I don’t like the eye appeal.

at.

I also tend to have the “dropsies”, so having a coin in a sturdy holder minimizes damage to coins. Now I’m way off topic, lol.

Steve

Thank you for having the courage to say this publicly! I am in the same exact boat and couldn't have said it better! I have learned to grade several series that I care deeply about, but to be honest I don't want to learn to grade 900 different types of nickels, when in the end I only want to own 1 or 2 of each type. I think collectors are sometimes shamed for their lack of grading skills. Well, guess what, almost none can grade as well as professionals at ANY of the TPG's, especially across an entire catalog of coins. I also am not ashamed to admit that I look for eye appeal over grade in many circumstances and rely on the TPG's to assure me of my choice/investment!

winesteven

I'm glad my public comments make you more comfortable @SharpStrikes . Over the past five+ years I've learned a LOT from reading daily posts and replies on this forum.

Welcome!

Steve

OnlyGoldIsMoney

My goal is a CAC Only set of Liberty $2.50's, as per my signature line

I am able to submit to CAC directly but do so infrequently as my new purchases typically are already CAC approved.

When upgrading my set I find if especially easy to sell my surplus PCGS/CAC coins.

winesteven

@OnlyGoldIsMoney said:
My goal is a CAC Only set of Liberty $2.50's, as per my signature line

I am able to submit to CAC directly but do so infrequently as my new purchases typically are already CAC approved.

When upgrading my set I find if especially easy to sell my surplus PCGS/CAC coins.

I see that the new CACG Registries have MANY Gold Liberty Quarter Eagle sets and subsets. You can choose to partake in the CAC Only Sets, but your lovely CAC stickered coins are also allowed to partake in the “Universal” sets, which are CAC sticker optional.

I look forward to seeing your PCGS CAC stickered coins in many, if not all, of those new CACG operated Registry sets!

Steve

OnlyGoldIsMoney

@winesteven said:

@OnlyGoldIsMoney said:
My goal is a CAC Only set of Liberty $2.50's, as per my signature line

I am able to submit to CAC directly but do so infrequently as my new purchases typically are already CAC approved.

When upgrading my set I find if especially easy to sell my surplus PCGS/CAC coins.

I see that the new CACG Registries have MANY Gold Liberty Quarter Eagle sets and subsets. You can choose to partake in the CAC Only Sets, but your lovely CAC stickered coins are also allowed to partake in the “Universal” sets, which are CAC sticker optional.

I look forward to seeing your PCGS CAC stickered coins in many, if not all, of those new CACG operated Registry sets!

Steve

Hi Steve, I was surprised by the many Liberty $2.50 sets and subsets. Apart from entering my inventory of PCGS/CAC coins I have not paid attention to the various types of sets. When entering my coins I did not impose any limits, thus my collection will appear in CAC only and universal type sets.

My CAC approved coins are all entered into the CAC registry but so far I have not uploaded photographs. I should enter my one non CAC approved coin (1867) as it could then appear in the universal sets.

All told I am very pleased with CAC's efforts in creating their registry.

winesteven

You can use your 100% CAC stickered coins in ANY of the applicable Universal sets. You don’t need a non stickered coin to play in that area.

Steve