Dark Coloration on Saints high points

JW77

What is the cause of the dark color on the chest and knee. I see this on many saints even with grades up to 65, but its very common on up to 64s. If it was rub they would carry AU grades. This was briefly discussed on another thread. On magnification I often see several hits, but not to the extent to explain all of the discoloration. Following is one example. I would appreciate to be educated on this. Thanks!

MFeld

Stacking

JW77

@MFeld said:
Stacking

Thanks Mark, that makes sense, I was hoping you would comment. Does this stacking coloration impact the grade in terms of eye appeal. I don't recall seeing this as often on 66/67 graded Saints, even more so on CAC 66/67 saints.

asheland

Dirt?

PeakRarities

@JW77 said:

@MFeld said:
Stacking

Thanks Mark, that makes sense, I was hoping you would comment. Does this stacking coloration impact the grade in terms of eye appeal. I don't recall seeing this as often on 66/67 graded Saints, even more so on CAC 66/67 saints.

In a different light:

MFeld

@JW77 said:

@MFeld said:
Stacking

Thanks Mark, that makes sense, I was hoping you would comment. Does this stacking coloration impact the grade in terms of eye appeal. I don't recall seeing this as often on 66/67 graded Saints, even more so on CAC 66/67 saints.

You’re certainly welcome.
I believe that it impacts both eye appeal and grade. And I see it on many, if not most MS64’s and MS65’s as well as on a lot of even higher grade examples.

BECOKA

@JW77 said:
What is the cause of the dark color on the chest and knee. I see this on many saints even with grades up to 65, but its very common on up to 64s. If it was rub they would carry AU grades. This was briefly discussed on another thread. On magnification I often see several hits, but not to the extent to explain all of the discoloration. Following is one example. I would appreciate to be educated on this. Thanks!

In the PCGS Coin Grading book they mention that in the lower MS grades minor distractions like stacking marks are forgiven if other aspects of the coin make up for it. Kind of an average of pluses and minuses.

In higher grades as you noticed, this is not allowed as everything gets stricter and anything that affects eye appeal is a much bigger negative.

asheland

@DeplorableDan said:

@JW77 said:

@MFeld said:
Stacking

Thanks Mark, that makes sense, I was hoping you would comment. Does this stacking coloration impact the grade in terms of eye appeal. I don't recall seeing this as often on 66/67 graded Saints, even more so on CAC 66/67 saints.

In a different light:

That is a beautiful coin! 👍

MFeld

@BECOKA said:

@JW77 said:
What is the cause of the dark color on the chest and knee. I see this on many saints even with grades up to 65, but its very common on up to 64s. If it was rub they would carry AU grades. This was briefly discussed on another thread. On magnification I often see several hits, but not to the extent to explain all of the discoloration. Following is one example. I would appreciate to be educated on this. Thanks!

In the PCGS Coin Grading book they mention that in the lower MS grades minor distractions like stacking marks are forgiven if other aspects of the coin make up for it. Kind of an average of pluses and minuses.

In higher grades as you noticed, this is not allowed as everything gets stricter and anything that affects eye appeal is a much bigger negative.

I’m not sure what you meant by “In higher grades as you noticed, this is not allowed as everything gets stricter…” but it’s not unusual to see the discoloration even on MS66’s. An MS66+ posted in this thread is just one such example.

BECOKA

@MFeld said:

I’m not sure what you meant by “In higher grades as you noticed, this is not allowed as everything gets stricter…” but it’s not unusual to see the discoloration even on MS66’s. An MS66+ posted in this thread is just one such example.

Just had a discussion on another forum on strike where 67 was on a technical side the cutoff for any weakness in strike and starting at 68 the strike needed to be very crisp.

I guess my higher grades would be 67 on up. Original poster mentioned he saw the discoloration on grades up to 65. I guess i just jumped to the conclusion he noticed it was not as common on higher grades than that even though it was never mentioned.

gumby1234

Stacking is just another way of saying rub. In reality it is rub, but they let it slide on these coins.

GoldFinger1969

@gumby1234 said:
Stacking is just another way of saying rub. In reality it is rub, but they let it slide on these coins.

Couldn't it be considerd a form of bag mark ?

I take it that since the MCMVII were largely NOT stacked, that we shouldn't see dark marks on their high points, right ?

Typekat

I have heard that dark high-point effect referred to as “Euro-dirt”, a product of longterm storage in European vaults.

ms71

I've heard it referred to as "bag rub" or "bag dirt", supposedly happening when the coins spent years being moved and stored in mint bags with some repeatedly abraded by the rough fabric.

gumby1234

@GoldFinger1969 stacking is only one form of rub.

If you are referring to the high relief Saints i would imagine there would be a lot less of those showing these darker areas of rub, but there could be some out there.