"HAZING & MILKSPOTS" .... It's amazing how people still don't understand this !!!

Harlequin

People still wonder about this so let me address it again as I'm sure this has been discussed here and on other forums before. This subject came up on another site whereas I responded as follows :

Just providing this info for those who don't know and for those who need to know. Enjoy the hobby folks and keep it simple ..... collect what you like and enjoy what you collect !!!

High Regards,
Exavier Scott
-harlequin numismatic-

jmlanzaf

That was one theory. Could you show me the definitive proof as that has been lacking? What about the other mints? Did they ask use the same cleaners? I've yet to see definitive proof of this theory.

Harlequin

Not a theory .... you can check anywhere online. If you need confirmation write to the USA Mint and they will confirm what I'm stating. This is public information so debate is non warranted. I only posted this for public info and as stated the Mint itself can verify this for ya 😎

Harlequin

Also, I don't know about other mints as I am only referring to the USA mint.

originalisbest

@Harlequin said:
Also, I don't know about other mints as I am only referring to the USA mint.

There is no one "USA mint." There are several.

Harlequin

Speaking in general on the business strikes

Harlequin

As is, I shouldn't have to go in detail about USA mints etc ........... anyone with a basic understanding of numismatics should understand what I am referring to ......

silviosi

@ Harlequin:

From the production point of view and what the Mint use your statment it is complet false. Was never sterilisation of planchets. Those spots are very well know by the Mint and come from other surce.

PS: @ jmlanzaf: This must be an whatnever media missinformations about the coins production. Damage we can not stop those scammers.

ifthevamzarockin

Bet you are glad you opened this can of worms.

Harlequin

All good ...... if I'm wrong then can someone please tell me how hazing and spots get on coins !!! I'm not trying to start a debate but the only reason I posted this is because I have a cousin who worked at the Philadelphia Mint for 13 years and when I asked him about this (15 years ago) this info is what he told me !!!! Was he wrong ???

silviosi

Good for him to work 10+ years. Good retirement incentive. Can you tell me what he do'it? Then I will answer you.

Harlequin

As stated, the question is ....... how do spots and hazing get on coins?

Harlequin

Planchets not cleaned properly !!!

Harlequin

Can anyone please correct me if I'm wrong ....... I'm waiting

silviosi

The planchets was never clean they was dry, Only the blancs are clean.

PS: you want to trolling?

JBK

@Harlequin said:
Can anyone please correct me if I'm wrong ....... I'm waiting

Its not anyone's job to prove that you are wrong. It would be up to you to provide backup for your assertions. (FWIW, I have understood it to be as you suggested, but I have no evidence).

BTW, "USA mint" is an odd term. They call themselves "United States Mint", or U.S. Mint.

Lastly, you wrote that it is mainly an issue on "pre-1990 silver" and that "1960-1985 coins were the worst I have seen". I am just curious - what milk-spotted silver coins have you seen from 1971 through 1985? There were silver Ikes from 1971-1974 and the modern commemorative coin programs began in 1982. Maybe a few uncirculated 40% Ikes could have been a little spotty, but I don't associate milk spots with the 1982 Washington halfs or the 1983/1984 Olympics dollars.

jfriedm56

Typically, aren’t “Milk Spots”, associated with mid 1950’s to 1964 proof sets produced at primarily the Philadelphia Mint. That was the only facility minting proof sets at the time. Sometimes they may also be found on sealed uncirculated sets from 1959-1964.

Downtown1974

When I hear the term “milk spots”, I automatically think of American Silver Eagles and Canadian Silver Maple Leafs.
I have heard the reason for this is due to what Harlequin alluded to. I wouldn’t dispute that theory. I can’t rule out other possibilities as well. I’m sure there are contributing factors involved that accelerate the spotting process such as the environment they are stored in, etc.

jmlanzaf

@Downtown1974 said:
When I hear the term “milk spots”, I automatically think of American Silver Eagles and Canadian Silver Maple Leafs.
I have heard the reason for this is due to what Harlequin alluded to. I wouldn’t dispute that theory. I can’t rule out other possibilities as well. I’m sure there are contributing factors involved that accelerate the spotting process such as the environment they are stored in, etc.

They also pop up on Australian and Chinese bullion in modern times. You also see something similar, but not as uniformly common on older silver.

A lot of research was done by various Mints as well as TPGS's into the issue. I have not seen - contrary to Harlequin's anecdotal assertion - any hard evidence that proved that detergents caused the issue. That was, and is, one of the main theories.

It is (to me) noteworthy that the Canadian Mint "solved" the problem. A few years ago they came out with a product that supposedly was immune to milk spots. How did they do it? They did NOT change detergents or improve rinsing. They coated the coins with a microscopic protective layer.

https://www.mint.ca/en/bullion/mintshield

Speculation continues and the answer to the question is not as clear as Harlequin's suggests based on his cousin who, for all we know, cleans toilets at the US Mint.

This is not to say that Harlequin's assertion is either wrong or completely without evidence. But no one, to my knowledge, has ever definitively proven the specific cause or mechanism for the spotting.

jmlanzaf

@JBK said:

@Harlequin said:
Can anyone please correct me if I'm wrong ....... I'm waiting

Its not anyone's job to prove that you are wrong. It would be up to you to provide backup for your assertions. (FWIW, I have understood it to be as you suggested, but I have no evidence).

BTW, "USA mint" is an odd term. They call themselves "United States Mint", or U.S. Mint.

Lastly, you wrote that it is mainly an issue on "pre-1990 silver" and that "1960-1985 coins were the worst I have seen". I am just curious - what milk-spotted silver coins have you seen from 1971 through 1985? There were silver Ikes from 1971-1974 and the modern commemorative coin programs began in 1982. Maybe a few uncirculated 40% Ikes could have been a little spotty, but I don't associate milk spots with the 1982 Washington halfs or the 1983/1984 Olympics dollars.

I think it partly depends on what spotting you include under the term "milk spots". Not all toning or hazing is necessarily the kind of "milk spot" that have typically been ascribed to contemporary 0.999 fine bullion coins.

It is just odd that Harlequin makes such a completely definitive statement - by quoting himself! - when the various Mints and TPGS's have been more circumspect in their conclusions. They all feel it is something in the manufacturing process and have pointed to surface contamination, possibly from detergent. However, to my knowledge, none of them have ever been as definitive about the cause and mechanism for the spotting. And they have studied it.

may

@Harlequin said:
All good ...... if I'm wrong then can someone please tell me how hazing and spots get on coins !!! I'm not trying to start a debate but the only reason I posted this is because I have a cousin who worked at the Philadelphia Mint for 13 years and when I asked him about this (15 years ago) this info is what he told me !!!! Was he wrong ???

Haze is caused by the coin’s storage conditions.

tincup

Wasn't there also some discussion... that the milk spots seemed to show up mostly on slabbed coins?

MilesWaits

I remain an MS and PR69 Modern Silver slab ONLY fan for this spotty reason!
Alternative white metal.

pcgscacgold

I sold off all my PR70 and MS70 silver eagles for this reason. Glad I did

MilesWaits

Amen, PCGS brother..

asheland

@MilesWaits said:
I remain an MS and PR69 Modern Silver slab ONLY fan for this spotty reason!
Alternative white metal.

Platinum should be immune! I love platinum…

Jimnight

Most will never understand.

Married2Coins

@Harlequin said:
As stated, the question is ....... how do spots and hazing get on coins?

This has been answered above and IMO, you are correct but you are using terms that are too simplified.

Although I have been informed by an ex-professional grader here that I have reached the point of of believing I actually know what I'm writing...Haze happens to coins when something on their surface reacts to there environment. Haze is not always a bad thing. I love my Brown box Proof Ikes with a bluish haze. Haze is harder for me to see on MS coins and much of the time it is either a light toning (oxidation) or a surface alteration. I learned about alterations at my first go around many years ago.

The term "spots" is too ambiguous. Spots come in several colors depending what they are from. My guess is this thread is about the "milk spots" on our vintage silver coins in the 50's - 60's or the irregular "STAINS" and spots on our modern coins - mostly silver bullion. Most agree that the milk spots on are vintage silver coins are from chemicals used at the Mint. IMO, ANYONE here who disputst this FACT should lose at least 2 stars! The stains on our bullion coins are also caused by chemicals used at the Mints. Apparently, at least one country has eliminated 99.8% of them.

Now to the speculative part: We all have seen the tiny round spots on high grade coins in slabs. I have read that some of this happens after the coins were slavbbed and they result from moisture in the air supply when the cases/coins are being blown out. Over time, they develop so we can see them.

Married2Coins

@jmlanzaf said:

@JBK said:

@Harlequin said:
Can anyone please correct me if I'm wrong ....... I'm waiting

Its not anyone's job to prove that you are wrong. It would be up to you to provide backup for your assertions. (FWIW, I have understood it to be as you suggested, but I have no evidence).

BTW, "USA mint" is an odd term. They call themselves "United States Mint", or U.S. Mint.

Lastly, you wrote that it is mainly an issue on "pre-1990 silver" and that "1960-1985 coins were the worst I have seen". I am just curious - what milk-spotted silver coins have you seen from 1971 through 1985? There were silver Ikes from 1971-1974 and the modern commemorative coin programs began in 1982. Maybe a few uncirculated 40% Ikes could have been a little spotty, but I don't associate milk spots with the 1982 Washington halfs or the 1983/1984 Olympics dollars.

I think it partly depends on what spotting you include under the term "milk spots". Not all toning or hazing is necessarily the kind of "milk spot" that have typically been ascribed to contemporary 0.999 fine bullion coins.

It is just odd that Harlequin makes such a completely definitive statement - by quoting himself! - when the various Mints and TPGS's have been more circumspect in their conclusions. They all feel it is something in the manufacturing process and have pointed to surface contamination, possibly from detergent. However, to my knowledge, none of them have ever been as definitive about the cause and mechanism for the spotting. And they have studied it.

Thankfully, this is good enought for most of us who are not "experts."

silviosi

The Milky Spots, IMHO will never be 100% resolved. Few years ago in my lab we test AUS, CAN and US milky coins. No one same kind.
CAN and AUS seem the slabs or the packaging has some oily residues and the traces of carbon could trend in this direction.

US coins is more ambigues. No Carbon. In time we go more for particular time of capsulate. packaging athmosferic environement. What we find was some sort of sel amino-acids bases which trend to enviromental conditions.Those capsules or Mint Packages are not vacuum or sonic sill.. We had no data or samples from all Mints.

Conclusion: This effect was produce after Mint, and could not be considered as Mint Error.

jmlanzaf

@Married2Coins said:

@jmlanzaf said:

@JBK said:

@Harlequin said:
Can anyone please correct me if I'm wrong ....... I'm waiting

Its not anyone's job to prove that you are wrong. It would be up to you to provide backup for your assertions. (FWIW, I have understood it to be as you suggested, but I have no evidence).

BTW, "USA mint" is an odd term. They call themselves "United States Mint", or U.S. Mint.

Lastly, you wrote that it is mainly an issue on "pre-1990 silver" and that "1960-1985 coins were the worst I have seen". I am just curious - what milk-spotted silver coins have you seen from 1971 through 1985? There were silver Ikes from 1971-1974 and the modern commemorative coin programs began in 1982. Maybe a few uncirculated 40% Ikes could have been a little spotty, but I don't associate milk spots with the 1982 Washington halfs or the 1983/1984 Olympics dollars.

I think it partly depends on what spotting you include under the term "milk spots". Not all toning or hazing is necessarily the kind of "milk spot" that have typically been ascribed to contemporary 0.999 fine bullion coins.

It is just odd that Harlequin makes such a completely definitive statement - by quoting himself! - when the various Mints and TPGS's have been more circumspect in their conclusions. They all feel it is something in the manufacturing process and have pointed to surface contamination, possibly from detergent. However, to my knowledge, none of them have ever been as definitive about the cause and mechanism for the spotting. And they have studied it.

Thankfully, this is good enought for most of us who are not "experts."

It shouldn't be. It hasn't led to a solution to the problem so it remains possible that it is misdiagnosed.

silviosi

jmlanzaf wrote:
so it remains possible that it is misdiagnosed.

Agree of missdiagnosed, but what it is certain it is not related with the Mints production. So it is after Mint enviromental reactions. I will like to know the temperatures, athmosferic composition and parameters and also the disposal environement.

What I want, will never come out, Damage.

Married2Coins

@jmlanzaf said:
It shouldn't be. It hasn't led to a solution to the problem so it remains possible that it is misdiagnosed.

Perhaps you should tell those involved at the U.S. Mint that they don't know what they are talking about.

jmlanzaf

@Married2Coins said:

@jmlanzaf said:
It shouldn't be. It hasn't led to a solution to the problem so it remains possible that it is misdiagnosed.

Perhaps you should tell those involved at the U.S. Mint that they don't know what they are talking about.

The Mint has never specifically determined the cause nor have they prevented it. They think it is due to something in their process but, since it is "bullion", we're not supposed to care.

If it's detergent, why doesn't simply washing them prevent it? There's been speculation that something (unknown) is struck into the surface and they are programmed for death. But despite what you are implying and the OP is stating, no one knows for sure exactly what causes them.

In fact, the only Mint that, to my knowledge, solved the problem did it by coating the surface with a protective layer. So, there is some air-mediated chemical reaction going on with something on the surface. But no one knows what it is, nor could they determine it with elemental analysis of the surface.

If you took your wife/mother/son to the doctor and they determined that "something is killing them" but we don't know what so we can't fix it. Would you stop there or keep looking for an answer?

Married2Coins

Fact: It is happening to coins leaving the Mint.
Fact: It is a Mint caused problem.
Fact: End of story.

Now, if you wish to believe my wife, my mother. or the doctor was involve with it, that fairytale is between you and Tinkerbell.

PS Most coinage metals are reactive to their environment. They will change whether we can see it or not and whether we know the reason or not. My wife or mother are going to die sometime and in many cases the doctors will not know why. They will still be dead. Our coins will still be stained. Clear?

Thank you for posting with me. It is much more entertaining than being just a lurker. I am out of this thread but will look in in case you leave the last word.