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Japanese Gold Koban Set

lermishlermish Posts: 3,036 ✭✭✭✭✭
in World & Ancient Coins Forum

I picked up my first Koban a couple of months ago and loved it even more than I expected. I can't have just one. So I've decided to begin the Koban type set by era. I intend to update this thread as I pick up an example from each era.

In general, I prefer them with chopmarks but will be looking for attractive examples regardless of whether they are chopped or not.

Kyoho 1714-1736 - This is currently being holdered. I expect XF Chopmarked but would not be surprised to see AU.


Comments

  • LukeMarshallLukeMarshall Posts: 1,983 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Awesome Historic Ingots , what generally is the weight and purity of these ?

    It's all about what the people want...

  • lermishlermish Posts: 3,036 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @LukeMarshall said:
    Awesome Historic Ingots , what generally is the weight and purity of these ?

    All over the place. Generally, they became lighter over the years. I believe the range is 18.2 grams to down to 3.33 grams.

    Purity on most of the earlier issues was ~86%, the later issues dropped to below 60%.

  • LukeMarshallLukeMarshall Posts: 1,983 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Awesome info, I like the look of them.

    The different metal compositions should provide for A varietal of Gold Colour, and toning…

    Can’t wait to see the set , sounds like a fun and worthwhile venture to collect!

    It's all about what the people want...

  • TheGoonies1985TheGoonies1985 Posts: 5,622 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Very interesting pieces thanks for sharing them with us!!! You seem to be making great progress.

    NFL: Buffalo Bills & Green Bay Packers

  • abbyme24abbyme24 Posts: 173 ✭✭✭✭

    The fact that these were pretty low purity for the later issues means that there is a lot of silver in the alloy which brings the potential for amazing rainbow toning that can't happen on most gold issues. Despite the low purity, they still had a very rich gold appearance due to a process called "color washing" or "color dressing". This was a chemical process that removed all of the silver from just the surface of the koban. In the case of the examples above this process wasn't done properly on all of the areas, so you have this really neat mix of deep gold and rainbow tones.

  • lermishlermish Posts: 3,036 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @abbyme24 said:
    I love the rim toning on your Bunsei @lermish . You should post your upgraded Kyoho!

    Forgive me for hijacking your thread a bit but I didn't see any general Japanese coin threads. I thought I would share some really nice toned pieces I've come across

    Always happy to have more Koban talk. Nice avatar change!

    Most recent update is this lovely Kyoho graded AU58. I picked this up from our very own @abbyme24 at the ANA this summer to upgrade my chopmarked example above. This is an original piece with attractive warm gold color and that special hammered gold luster.

  • goldengolden Posts: 9,664 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I wanted one of those decades ago. Just never got around to purchasing one.

  • lermishlermish Posts: 3,036 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @golden said:
    I wanted one of those decades ago. Just never got around to purchasing one.

    The common dates can be very reasonably priced. They really are fantastic and a lot of fun.

    @abbyme24 won't advertise herself here but I can! She has a few in inventory and is constantly finding new examples.

    https://risingsunrarities.com/collections/gold-kobans-and-obans

  • dcarrdcarr Posts: 8,525 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I have had these two for quite a few years (acquired at different times from different sources). Neither have been sent for grading/certification, as far as I know. I have not even attempted to attribute them. Any and all opinions are welcome and appreciated, good or bad.

    On the left:
    10.8 grams, 34mm x 59mm.

    On the right:
    9.0 grams, 32mm x 59mm.


    Moonlight Mint
  • abbyme24abbyme24 Posts: 173 ✭✭✭✭

    @dcarr those are both fine looking Koban. Dimensions and weight check out and from pictures they look legitimate.

    The one on the left is a Tenpo era minted between 1837 and 1858. It is the most common of the larger Koban type.

    The one in the right is an Ansei era minted in 1859. This is one of the rarest Koban, as despite being one of the newest it was only minted over a several month period instead of decades like most of the others.

    Really rare to see an Ansei state-side, even in Japan I might only see one for every 20 of the common types I come across. Thank you for sharing!

  • lermishlermish Posts: 3,036 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @dcarr Abby looks for these more diligently than I do, but I've only ever seen a couple Ansei available. That's a very wholesome looking example! You are a better grader than I and can look at it in hand but it looks like the Ansei may grade AU - Scratch? Either way, that is a special coin.

    The tenpo is nice too but less exciting ;)

  • dcarrdcarr Posts: 8,525 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @abbyme24 said:
    @dcarr those are both fine looking Koban. Dimensions and weight check out and from pictures they look legitimate.

    The one on the left is a Tenpo era minted between 1837 and 1858. It is the most common of the larger Koban type.

    The one in the right is an Ansei era minted in 1859. This is one of the rarest Koban, as despite being one of the newest it was only minted over a several month period instead of decades like most of the others.

    Really rare to see an Ansei state-side, even in Japan I might only see one for every 20 of the common types I come across. Thank you for sharing!

    @lermish said:
    @dcarr Abby looks for these more diligently than I do, but I've only ever seen a couple Ansei available. That's a very wholesome looking example! You are a better grader than I and can look at it in hand but it looks like the Ansei may grade AU - Scratch? Either way, that is a special coin.

    The tenpo is nice too but less exciting ;)

    .

    Excellent, thanks for the information. I will probably submit these for grading/authentication at some point (when convenient).

    I remember that years ago I bought one from a seller in Japan, and that may be the Ansei piece shown.

    If I were to grade these two using the same standards as 19th Century US gold, I would put them both at AU 55.

    .

    Moonlight Mint
  • abbyme24abbyme24 Posts: 173 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 2, 2024 5:20AM

    @dcarr said:

    @abbyme24 said:
    @dcarr those are both fine looking Koban. Dimensions and weight check out and from pictures they look legitimate.

    The one on the left is a Tenpo era minted between 1837 and 1858. It is the most common of the larger Koban type.

    The one in the right is an Ansei era minted in 1859. This is one of the rarest Koban, as despite being one of the newest it was only minted over a several month period instead of decades like most of the others.

    Really rare to see an Ansei state-side, even in Japan I might only see one for every 20 of the common types I come across. Thank you for sharing!

    @lermish said:
    @dcarr Abby looks for these more diligently than I do, but I've only ever seen a couple Ansei available. That's a very wholesome looking example! You are a better grader than I and can look at it in hand but it looks like the Ansei may grade AU - Scratch? Either way, that is a special coin.

    The tenpo is nice too but less exciting ;)

    .

    Excellent, thanks for the information. I will probably submit these for grading/authentication at some point (when convenient).

    I remember that years ago I bought one from a seller in Japan, and that may be the Ansei piece shown.

    If I were to grade these two using the same standards as 19th Century US gold, I would put them both at AU 55.

    .

    You’re welcome! And yes I definitely would consider slabbing them if for nothing other than protection. They’re basically just two giant fields ripe for hairlines even with careful handling.

    Without seeing them in hand I would be apt to agree 55 or 58. Based on the picture the only thing I’m seeing to prevent a straight grade would be the little nick on left side reverse of the Ansei, but I don’t think it’s large enough.

  • dcarrdcarr Posts: 8,525 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @abbyme24 said:

    @dcarr said:

    @abbyme24 said:
    @dcarr those are both fine looking Koban. Dimensions and weight check out and from pictures they look legitimate.

    The one on the left is a Tenpo era minted between 1837 and 1858. It is the most common of the larger Koban type.

    The one in the right is an Ansei era minted in 1859. This is one of the rarest Koban, as despite being one of the newest it was only minted over a several month period instead of decades like most of the others.

    Really rare to see an Ansei state-side, even in Japan I might only see one for every 20 of the common types I come across. Thank you for sharing!

    @lermish said:
    @dcarr Abby looks for these more diligently than I do, but I've only ever seen a couple Ansei available. That's a very wholesome looking example! You are a better grader than I and can look at it in hand but it looks like the Ansei may grade AU - Scratch? Either way, that is a special coin.

    The tenpo is nice too but less exciting ;)

    .

    Excellent, thanks for the information. I will probably submit these for grading/authentication at some point (when convenient).

    I remember that years ago I bought one from a seller in Japan, and that may be the Ansei piece shown.

    If I were to grade these two using the same standards as 19th Century US gold, I would put them both at AU 55.

    .

    You’re welcome! And yes I definitely would consider slabbing them if for nothing other than protection. They’re basically just two giant fields ripe for hairlines even with careful handling.

    Without seeing them in hand I would be apt to agree 55 or 58. Based on the picture the only thing I’m seeing to prevent a straight grade would be the little nick on left side reverse of the Ansei, but I don’t think it’s large enough.

    .

    I think it was made that way (a small minting flaw rather than post-strike damage).

    .

    Moonlight Mint
  • dcarrdcarr Posts: 8,525 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I found another that I had. This may be the one that I bought from a seller in Japan. It has the JNDA certificate. But I have not researched it to determine what era it is from. I assume the scattered small punches would be considered "chop marks" (which don't bother me at all on a piece like this):

    Moonlight Mint
  • lermishlermish Posts: 3,036 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @dcarr said:
    I found another that I had. This may be the one that I bought from a seller in Japan. It has the JNDA certificate. But I have not researched it to determine what era it is from. I assume the scattered small punches would be considered "chop marks" (which don't bother me at all on a piece like this):

    That's a very attractive and original looking Genbun. It's a slightly better date and a tough one to find without chops. As you can tell from my registry sets below, chopmarks don't bother me either ;) You're off to a pretty good start!

  • dcarrdcarr Posts: 8,525 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @lermish said:

    @dcarr said:
    I found another that I had. This may be the one that I bought from a seller in Japan. It has the JNDA certificate. But I have not researched it to determine what era it is from. I assume the scattered small punches would be considered "chop marks" (which don't bother me at all on a piece like this):

    That's a very attractive and original looking Genbun. It's a slightly better date and a tough one to find without chops. As you can tell from my registry sets below, chopmarks don't bother me either ;) You're off to a pretty good start!

    Thanks,
    So that would be Genbun era, 1736-1741 ?
    Is there a mark that determines a specific year ?

    Moonlight Mint
  • lermishlermish Posts: 3,036 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @dcarr said:

    @lermish said:

    @dcarr said:
    I found another that I had. This may be the one that I bought from a seller in Japan. It has the JNDA certificate. But I have not researched it to determine what era it is from. I assume the scattered small punches would be considered "chop marks" (which don't bother me at all on a piece like this):

    That's a very attractive and original looking Genbun. It's a slightly better date and a tough one to find without chops. As you can tell from my registry sets below, chopmarks don't bother me either ;) You're off to a pretty good start!

    Thanks,
    So that would be Genbun era, 1736-1741 ?
    Is there a mark that determines a specific year ?

    Genbun koban mintage was 1736-1818. The era stamp is the key indicator for which era the Koban is from. They vary across the 10 eras. The mint master stamps are the smaller ones on the bottom left (similar to assayer initials on an 8 reales).

  • dcarrdcarr Posts: 8,525 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @lermish said:

    @dcarr said:

    @lermish said:

    @dcarr said:
    I found another that I had. This may be the one that I bought from a seller in Japan. It has the JNDA certificate. But I have not researched it to determine what era it is from. I assume the scattered small punches would be considered "chop marks" (which don't bother me at all on a piece like this):

    That's a very attractive and original looking Genbun. It's a slightly better date and a tough one to find without chops. As you can tell from my registry sets below, chopmarks don't bother me either ;) You're off to a pretty good start!

    Thanks,
    So that would be Genbun era, 1736-1741 ?
    Is there a mark that determines a specific year ?

    Genbun koban mintage was 1736-1818. The era stamp is the key indicator for which era the Koban is from. They vary across the 10 eras. The mint master stamps are the smaller ones on the bottom left (similar to assayer initials on an 8 reales).

    .
    Good to learn more about these. So now I see that all three of my Koban have different era markings.
    Can the mint-master marks be used to narrow the production date range ?
    .

    Moonlight Mint
  • lermishlermish Posts: 3,036 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @dcarr said:

    @lermish said:

    @dcarr said:

    @lermish said:

    @dcarr said:
    I found another that I had. This may be the one that I bought from a seller in Japan. It has the JNDA certificate. But I have not researched it to determine what era it is from. I assume the scattered small punches would be considered "chop marks" (which don't bother me at all on a piece like this):

    That's a very attractive and original looking Genbun. It's a slightly better date and a tough one to find without chops. As you can tell from my registry sets below, chopmarks don't bother me either ;) You're off to a pretty good start!

    Thanks,
    So that would be Genbun era, 1736-1741 ?
    Is there a mark that determines a specific year ?

    Genbun koban mintage was 1736-1818. The era stamp is the key indicator for which era the Koban is from. They vary across the 10 eras. The mint master stamps are the smaller ones on the bottom left (similar to assayer initials on an 8 reales).

    .
    Good to learn more about these. So now I see that all three of my Koban have different era markings.
    Can the mint-master marks be used to narrow the production date range ?
    .

    In theory, yes. But there is no English guide to the marks.

    @abbyme24 please correct me but I think there is some info in Japanese but it's not comprehensive? Or very limited? There is a lot of research and translation being done but I'm not up to date on where things stand currently.

  • abbyme24abbyme24 Posts: 173 ✭✭✭✭

    Wow yeah you sure are off to a good start @dcarr!

    The stamps do indicate (with some exception) the “mint master”, however I’m not aware of being able to tie them to an actual person or specific date range. The stamps are generic words (some examples off the top of my head are “luck”, “river”, or a number) rather than seals or surnames. So my understanding is that the combinations that you find are not necessarily unique and perhaps were reused. It’s also possible that a mint master used different combinations during his tenure.

    I’m far from an expert though and as @lermish said there is a dearth of English-language information on these. However this is what I’ve gathered from my (limited) discussions with Japanese dealers about them. It’s definitely something I am looking to dive deeper into, as there is an active collector base within Japan that puts together sets based on the mint master stamps, in a similar way to how US collectors put together mint mark sets.

  • dcarrdcarr Posts: 8,525 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November 16, 2024 5:30AM

    Interesting - at some point perhaps it will be possible to identify more attributes of these.

    I have finished going through what I have and I found one other Koban. This one looks like silver and not gold. It also has a pair of some sort of critter on it (looks like squirrels or rabbits). I bought this as part of a collection that had some Chinese sycee pieces. I certainly didn't pay for this one as a real gold Koban. But I am still curious what it is and about when it was made. I assume it is some sort of modern "souvenir" or the like. The weight is 14.35 grams and the size is 45mm x 65mm.

    Moonlight Mint
  • abbyme24abbyme24 Posts: 173 ✭✭✭✭

    @dcarr said:
    Interesting - at some point perhaps it will be possible to identify more attributes of these.

    I have finished going through what I have and I found one other Koban. This one looks like silver and not gold. It also has a pair of some sort of critter on it (looks like squirrels or rabbits). I bought this as part of a collection that had some Chinese sycee pieces. I certainly didn't pay for this one as a real gold Koban. But I am still curious what it is and about when it was made. I assume it is some sort of modern "souvenir" or the like. The weight is 14.35 grams and the size is 45mm x 65mm.

    This looks to be a "fantasy" issue of a ginban. Similar ones come up often at auction houses, and typically don't trade for much over metal value. I haven't done a lot of research on these yet so I am not sure if they are contemporary or modern, but regardless there is little to no numismatic premium.

    Most of these "fantasy" issues were clearly different than the official ones, which makes me think they weren't intended to be counterfeits. However, some do resemble some very rare/esoteric types.

  • lermishlermish Posts: 3,036 ✭✭✭✭✭

    An upgrade to my Bunesei courtesy of @abbyme24

    Really nicely struck with some interesting ink remnants on the reverse.



  • JW77JW77 Posts: 491 ✭✭✭✭✭

    These Koban coins are high on the "cool" factor. Is there a price guide that tracks the Koban market?

  • lermishlermish Posts: 3,036 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @JW77 said:
    These Koban coins are high on the "cool" factor. Is there a price guide that tracks the Koban market?

    There is a useable auction archive of foreign auctions but it's very expensive and probably doesn't make sense for most collectors.

    Otherwise, there may be something in Japanese, but I think you probably have to do it the old fashioned way. Find auction prices realized, be aware of retail sales prices, and do your best to ballpark it. @abbyme24 anything I'm missing?

    If buying coins that are expensive for you and especially if just getting started, it's really important to work with a trustworthy dealer.

  • tcollectstcollects Posts: 1,072 ✭✭✭✭✭

    this is a cool thread, amazing coins, great new pickups

  • JW77JW77 Posts: 491 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @lermish said:

    @JW77 said:
    These Koban coins are high on the "cool" factor. Is there a price guide that tracks the Koban market?

    There is a useable auction archive of foreign auctions but it's very expensive and probably doesn't make sense for most collectors.

    Otherwise, there may be something in Japanese, but I think you probably have to do it the old fashioned way. Find auction prices realized, be aware of retail sales prices, and do your best to ballpark it. @abbyme24 anything I'm missing?

    If buying coins that are expensive for you and especially if just getting started, it's really important to work with a trustworthy dealer.

    thanks for the sound advice

  • goldengolden Posts: 9,664 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Very cool!

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