@JWP said:
I've got the 6-coin 2021 Morgan/peace dollars in their OGP and have thought about getting them graded. The price seems to about the same if they are sent to NGC or CACG. I don't have a membership to PCGS, so they are not being considered. I had thought to try and send them to get stickered, but the cost seems redundant too. I will eventually get them graded but will probably pass on the green bean.
CAC stickering in New Jersey will not accept any modern coins for stickering, including your 2021 Modern Morgan and Peace Dollars.
Steve
A day without fine wine and working on your coin collection is like a day without sunshine!!!
I find it amazing how many finite details or rules of engagement if you will, there are to determine if a coin is simply good enough for ones collection. A lot has changed since I arrived in 2018. Frankly, its kind of a pain in the rear end just to keep up with all of the hoopla. Quick question (and Yes it is) before CACG happened and back when it was just the sticker chase, what percentage of NGC coins stickered vs PCGS?
I am curious what percentage of the roughly 1.2 million PCGS certified St. Gaudens, or roughly 3.8 million PCGS certified Morgan dollars have made their way through CAC. Do those of you that only buy CAC feel you could be missing out on some good coins, or that it is not worth the risk buying one without a sticker?
winesteven January 18, 2024 Apparently due to surface treatments, gold in general has a much lower sticker rate
I answered more deep, but was lost. So I do more short. As example the Saints. Different years, different colors of the gold. I can restore and clean any gold coin of 850 and more with no problem at the original color without loose any characteristics of the fresh struck. In my collection I have light yellow, yellow, yellow-redish and almost red Saints. The SDX-DSX tests show that colors are direct proportional with the elements of the alloy. (Different years, different proveniance of the gold)
Now this it is my questions?:
Who at the CAC or CACG know the original colors of the years gold coins? No One
Who at the CAC or CACG can determinate the gold was clean, restore true the slab without deep analyzes? No One
Who at the CAC or CACG has backround in molecular chemistry or metalurgy? No One.
PS: The gold it is an unique mineral on the earth and no know element could interfere without drastic interference.
NEVER ARGUE WITH AN IDIOT.FIRST THEY WILL DRAG YOU DOWN TO THEIR LEVEL.THEN, THEY WILL BEAT YOU WITH EXPERIENCE. MARK TWAIN
@davewesen said:
I am curious what percentage of the roughly 1.2 million PCGS certified St. Gaudens, or roughly 3.8 million PCGS certified Morgan dollars have made their way through CAC. Do those of you that only buy CAC feel you could be missing out on some good coins, or that it is not worth the risk buying one without a sticker?
In the 1970s there was a television commercial for Alka-Seltzer where one guy is giving some other guy some scary-looking food and says, “Try it, you'll like it.” That became the catchphrase for an entire generation and it meant not to pass judgment on something until you have experienced it
while ASSUMING a coin was submitted to CAC but failed to sticker is not unreasonable, there's still a good chance it never was submitted. Assign whatever odds you want, but it would clearly be much more definitive, IMO, if the sticker rate was much lower than that 40% rate.
It's true that most coins have not been submitted to CAC; but, many for sale have been, especially those over $200/$300.
Because I had limited access to viewing coins in hand and auction houses have a no returns policy, I have asked in the past whether they automatically send coins to CAC. One interesting historical comment was that by not sending coins to CAC, bidders might pay more thinking the coin could upgrade to a CAC.
Seems mind boggling about how many been submitted but wonder how many existing CAC 1 Gone bad in the holder 2 of those are they grossly boverpriced? Tommy a Rare Coin Investment Consultant in Cali has about 500 slabbed $20 Saints and $20 Libs. This is very easily a show case stacked 6 deep. He cherry picks them for quality saying “the new breed of investors are looking for lustrous pieces with great luster, no problems. Pieces with spots, bad tarnish are avoided.” He has a few CAC but as he operates on a very narrow spread has to keep overhead costs under control. He says “CACG coins on fire as many want them.”
@Coinscratch said:
I find it amazing how many finite details or rules of engagement if you will, there are to determine if a coin is simply good enough for ones collection. A lot has changed since I arrived in 2018. Frankly, its kind of a pain in the rear end just to keep up with all of the hoopla. Quick question (and Yes it is) before CACG happened and back when it was just the sticker chase, what percentage of NGC coins stickered vs PCGS?
While CAC has that data, they do not release it, so there’s no way to know the answer.
However, with that said, I have some information that might be relevant (or maybe not), as it measures something else:
If you look at auctions that have filters, AS A GENERALIZATION, I’ve noticed over the years that of coins in their auctions that have CAC stickers, roughly 76% - 88% are graded by PCGS (and the remaining 12% - 24% are graded by NGC). I write this before I check current auctions.
Now I’m checking. In the current GC auctions listed at this moment ending over the next few weeks, using their filters I see there are 839 coins graded by PCGS and NGC with CAC stickers. PCGS CAC has 654 and NGC has 185. Those come out to 78% of the total PCGS and 22% of the total NGC.
With the two upcoming DLRC auctions combined, the numbers are 139 CAC coins graded by PCGS and 26 graded by NGC, for a total of 165 (but when you plug both in, for some reason it shows a total of 162 instead of 165, lol). So roughly 84% of those with a CAC sticker are graded by PCGS, and 16% by NGC.
The reason this does not answer your question is it’s possible a LOT more PCGS coins have been submitted for stickering than coins graded by NGC. We really don’t know.
Steve
A day without fine wine and working on your coin collection is like a day without sunshine!!!
@davewesen said:
I am curious what percentage of the roughly 1.2 million PCGS certified St. Gaudens, or roughly 3.8 million PCGS certified Morgan dollars have made their way through CAC. Do those of you that only buy CAC feel you could be missing out on some good coins, or that it is not worth the risk buying one without a sticker?
I’ll answer just for myself!
The first question doesn’t matter, as lower grade common date coins generally don’t get submitted as much as a percentage in that grade compared to the percentage of coins in a higher grade for those dates. As an example, I would speculate that 1880-S Morgan’s graded MS63 and lower have a much smaller percentage of those in that grade submitted, compared to the percentage of those graded MS67 and higher that get submitted. Why? Because the financial differential of those with and without stickers is larger in the higher grades. Financially, for many collectors, it may not make sense to submit coins in those lower grades.
Regarding your last questions, I’ve very recently addressed that for ME, either in this thread higher above, or in a related thread regarding this same question being asked about MS 66 Saints. Yes, as a collector who chooses to avoid coins without stickers, ABSOLUTELY I’m missing out on coins with nice eye appeal that in CAC’s opinion may indeed be solid for the grade, and have no “surface problems” in the opinion of CAC. However, most of the coins I buy are typically valued at about $1,000 - $8,000, and I choose to not take the risk that coins without stickers have not previously been submitted and failed to sticker. I prefer, for my collection, to have coins that in the opinion of CAC are solid for the grade and have problem-free surfaces. If I take the risk, submit the coin and it fails, either by being in CAC’s opinion not solid for the grade (and possibly overgraded), or has had surface treatments that the TPG’s find acceptable but CAC does not, I personally don’t want that coin in my collection. So I would then turn around and sell that coin, likely at a loss.
Steve
A day without fine wine and working on your coin collection is like a day without sunshine!!!
@Catbert said:
I think it is a safe assumption that if a non CAC stickered saint is being auctioned through one of the well known >auction houses that it has previously failed sticker review.
More likely with Saints or higher-priced series (or coins), agreed.
A friend of mine is a DE collector and bought most of his coins in the 1980's and 1990's. Has never submitted a coin for CAC even though I am sure out of his 30-35 coins he has a few CAC-worthy coins. I don't think he has bought a DE since he got married and had kids in the late-1990's/early-2000's, that was pre-CAC.
@DeplorableDan said:
There was a discussion about this on Facebook a few months ago. Several dealers claimed that their sticker rate >was well over 50% for a long time, and as high as 60-75% with some submissions. Those same dealers opined that >their approval rate had fallen into the 20-25% range as of late 2023. Almost any dealer you ask will state that it’s >seemingly much more difficult to get a coin to sticker now than it ever was in the past. That could be attributed to >multiple factors, one being that there’s obviously less fresh material to be sent, the other being that perhaps there >was unintended subconscious tightening when CACG opened.
Basically, the "low-hanging fruit" was picked, right ?
@DeplorableDan said:
There was a discussion about this on Facebook a few months ago. Several dealers claimed that their sticker rate >was well over 50% for a long time, and as high as 60-75% with some submissions. Those same dealers opined that >their approval rate had fallen into the 20-25% range as of late 2023. Almost any dealer you ask will state that it’s >seemingly much more difficult to get a coin to sticker now than it ever was in the past. That could be attributed to >multiple factors, one being that there’s obviously less fresh material to be sent, the other being that perhaps there >was unintended subconscious tightening when CACG opened.
Basically, the "low-hanging fruit" was picked, right ?
Most likely. I just try buy stuff right avoid the sticker process…Let somebody else pay that cost / assume that risk in mail.
winesteven wrote:
If I take the risk, submit the coin and it fails, either by being in CAC’s opinion not solid for the grade (and possibly overgraded), or has had surface treatments that the TPG’s find acceptable but CAC does not,
Yes, but you do not answer my question: Who at CAC or CACG can certify the surface traitment? who there it is qualify for this statment?
I agree that it is an price mouvement for CAC or CACG. This it is just marketing and the market. But other thing it is the accuracy. Respond please: Where this accuracy it is now. What will be in the future it is other ball game. Answer me from the coins collector perspective and not money maker.
NEVER ARGUE WITH AN IDIOT.FIRST THEY WILL DRAG YOU DOWN TO THEIR LEVEL.THEN, THEY WILL BEAT YOU WITH EXPERIENCE. MARK TWAIN
@DeplorableDan said:
There was a discussion about this on Facebook a few months ago. Several dealers claimed that their sticker rate >was well over 50% for a long time, and as high as 60-75% with some submissions. Those same dealers opined that >their approval rate had fallen into the 20-25% range as of late 2023. Almost any dealer you ask will state that it’s >seemingly much more difficult to get a coin to sticker now than it ever was in the past. That could be attributed to >multiple factors, one being that there’s obviously less fresh material to be sent, the other being that perhaps there >was unintended subconscious tightening when CACG opened.
Basically, the "low-hanging fruit" was picked, right ?
Most likely. I just try buy stuff right avoid the sticker process…Let somebody else pay that cost / assume that risk in mail.
@Coinscratch said:
I find it amazing how many finite details or rules of engagement if you will, there are to determine if a coin is simply good enough for ones collection. A lot has changed since I arrived in 2018. Frankly, its kind of a pain in the rear end just to keep up with all of the hoopla. Quick question (and Yes it is) before CACG happened and back when it was just the sticker chase, what percentage of NGC coins stickered vs PCGS?
While CAC has that data, they do not release it, so there’s no way to know the answer.
However, with that said, I have some information that might be relevant (or maybe not), as it measures something else:
If you look at auctions that have filters, AS A GENERALIZATION, I’ve noticed over the years that of coins in their auctions that have CAC stickers, roughly 76% - 88% are graded by PCGS (and the remaining 12% - 24% are graded by NGC). I write this before I check current auctions.
Now I’m checking. In the current GC auctions listed at this moment ending over the next few weeks, using their filters I see there are 839 coins graded by PCGS and NGC with CAC stickers. PCGS CAC has 654 and NGC has 185. Those come out to 78% of the total PCGS and 22% of the total NGC.
With the two upcoming DLRC auctions combined, the numbers are 139 CAC coins graded by PCGS and 26 graded by NGC, for a total of 165 (but when you plug both in, for some reason it shows a total of 162 instead of 165, lol). So roughly 84% of those with a CAC sticker are graded by PCGS, and 16% by NGC.
The reason this does not answer your question is it’s possible a LOT more PCGS coins have been submitted for stickering than coins graded by NGC. We really don’t know.
Steve
Thanks Steven - roughly 85/15 is what I expected (talk about when it comes time to sell) but I was still curious if it was substantially lower.
On moderns I’m pretty sure I could get higher numbers over there but I just can’t bring myself to do it. Mostly because I’ve looked at too many auction results, their ms68 typically brings half and in a lot of cases our 7 brings more.
I know this is a touchy subject so I’m just trying to understand w/o hurting anyones precious lil feelings 😁
OK, I know it's tough to grade a coin from pics (even Hi-Res pics) compared to in-hand....but take a look at this currently offered high-grade Saint.
High Grade....Plus....CAC.
If not for the existing certifications....how would a beginner/intermediate grader like me or some of my friends look at this coin and NOT think that the discolorations on the high-points are wear/rub/friction ? Or might be, even if we're not sure.
Separately, you do know that the CAC sticker is NOT saying the coin is solid as a 67+, but is only solid as a 67? CAC MAY think the coin merits the plus, or maybe not. We don’t know. Only CACG, in a crossover or grading from a raw coin, would indicate if a coin, in their opinion, merits a plus.
Steve
A day without fine wine and working on your coin collection is like a day without sunshine!!!
@GoldFinger1969 said:
OK, I know it's tough to grade a coin from pics (even Hi-Res pics) compared to in-hand....but take a look at this currently offered high-grade Saint.
High Grade....Plus....CAC.
If not for the existing certifications....how would a beginner/intermediate grader like me or some of my friends look at this coin and NOT think that the discolorations on the high-points are wear/rub/friction ? Or might be, even if we're not sure.
This coin is sick! Even the rims have luster. I wouldn't get too caught up in the details here and instead look at the big picture. A couple of nicks is the only thing holding it back from an eight. They say you can't grade from pictures, I disagree.
However, grading that was too easy like watching poker on TV I can already see their hand. Easy to see The royal flush here, that queen is easily a 10 has the J. A. along with the king (PCGS).
@Coinscratch said:
This coin is sick! Even the rims have luster. I wouldn't get too caught up in the details here and instead look at the >big picture. A couple of nicks is the only thing holding it back from an eight. They say you can't grade from pictures, I >disagree.
But what about the discolorations/blemishes on the high points: Liberty's left leg and the upper right thigh (the reverse looks clean) ?
@Coinscratch said:
This coin is sick! Even the rims have luster. I wouldn't get too caught up in the details here and instead look at the >big picture. A couple of nicks is the only thing holding it back from an eight. They say you can't grade from pictures, I >disagree.
But what about the discolorations/blemishes on the high points: Liberty's left leg and the upper right thigh (the reverse looks clean) ?
"Discoloration" is not wear. Wear can result in discoloration. However, discoloration can Andi be toning or surface dirt.
@jmlanzaf said:
"Discoloration" is not wear. Wear can result in discoloration. However, discoloration can Andi be toning or surface >dirt.
Can I tell the difference from the pics above ? Or would I need to see the coin in-hand ?
I know in front of you is always better than pictures, but I'm going to see the same thing either way....SO....how can I tell if it's wear/rub (what we had that big back-and-forth on in another thread) or just toning or "surface dirt" ?
@Coinscratch said:
This coin is sick! Even the rims have luster. I wouldn't get too caught up in the details here and instead look at the >big picture. A couple of nicks is the only thing holding it back from an eight. They say you can't grade from pictures, I >disagree.
But what about the discolorations/blemishes on the high points: Liberty's left leg and the upper right thigh (the reverse looks clean) ?
"Discoloration" is not wear. Wear can result in discoloration. However, discoloration can Andi be toning or surface dirt.
True, but the knee also looks rather flat. It sure looks like friction. Not something I’d call an A or B coin. I’m also not a fan of what looks like PVC. From the True View:
@Coinscratch said:
I find it amazing how many finite details or rules of engagement if you will, there are to determine if a coin is simply good enough for ones collection. A lot has changed since I arrived in 2018. Frankly, its kind of a pain in the rear end just to keep up with all of the hoopla. Quick question (and Yes it is) before CACG happened and back when it was just the sticker chase, what percentage of NGC coins stickered vs PCGS?
While CAC has that data, they do not release it, so there’s no way to know the answer.
However, with that said, I have some information that might be relevant (or maybe not), as it measures something else:
If you look at auctions that have filters, AS A GENERALIZATION, I’ve noticed over the years that of coins in their auctions that have CAC stickers, roughly 76% - 88% are graded by PCGS (and the remaining 12% - 24% are graded by NGC). I write this before I check current auctions.
Now I’m checking. In the current GC auctions listed at this moment ending over the next few weeks, using their filters I see there are 839 coins graded by PCGS and NGC with CAC stickers. PCGS CAC has 654 and NGC has 185. Those come out to 78% of the total PCGS and 22% of the total NGC.
With the two upcoming DLRC auctions combined, the numbers are 139 CAC coins graded by PCGS and 26 graded by NGC, for a total of 165 (but when you plug both in, for some reason it shows a total of 162 instead of 165, lol). So roughly 84% of those with a CAC sticker are graded by PCGS, and 16% by NGC.
The reason this does not answer your question is it’s possible a LOT more PCGS coins have been submitted for stickering than coins graded by NGC. We really don’t know.
Steve
This is probably not all that meaningful. For a decade or more, folks have been told that the best coins end up in PCGS holders, and everyone has bought into the hype meaning PCGS holdered coins sell for more, so many cross their NGC holdered coins to PCGS holders. What would be a good measure is that coins originally graded by the 2 different TPG's (and never crossed) and how they do at CAC. But the problem is all the data is biased now bc of all of the crossing............
@GoldFinger1969 said:
So the darker blotched on the legs (high points) are toning or discoloration....and NOT wear/rub/friction.
Is there something that one can look for to tell the difference ?
That depends on the individual coin. AU coins display wear/rub/friction as discoloration, too. Your various posts give the impression that you’re concerned about not being able to tell the difference. If so and you’re not confident that the grading companies can either, just avoid the coins.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
@MFeld said:
That depends on the individual coin. AU coins display wear/rub/friction as discoloration, too. Your various posts >give the impression that you’re concerned about not being able to tell the difference. If so and you’re not confident >that the grading companies can either, just avoid the coins.
Oh no, I am sure the experts know what they are doing....it's ME I'm not sure about, Mark ! Seriously, just trying to understand the basics so I have a working knowledge where I can maybe be right 80-90% of the time, if not 99.9% of the time or whatever the experts bat.
The discoloration is easy to see from the pics above. I'm just wondering what all of YOU are seeing that I am not that leads you (and the graders) to intuitively know it's NOT wear/rub discoloration.
Clearly, the certifications on the holder tell you that it's not rub (obviously, no coin is going to be 67+CAC if it had AU-type rub/wear).
@MFeld said:
That depends on the individual coin. AU coins display wear/rub/friction as discoloration, too. Your various posts >give the impression that you’re concerned about not being able to tell the difference. If so and you’re not confident >that the grading companies can either, just avoid the coins.
Oh no, I am sure the experts know what they are doing....it's ME I'm not sure about, Mark ! Seriously, just trying to understand the basics so I have a working knowledge where I can maybe be right 80-90% of the time, if not 99.9% of the time or whatever the experts bat.
The discoloration is easy to see from the pics above. I'm just wondering what all of YOU are seeing that I am not that leads you (and the graders) to intuitively know it's NOT wear/rub discoloration.
Clearly, the certifications on the holder tell you that it's not rub (obviously, no coin is going to be 67+CAC if it had AU-type rub/wear).
If you are looking for wear, look for wear and stop obsessing over discoloration or some other secondary indicator. You can have wear and no discoloration. They are NOT the same thing.
I suggest looking at AU58 coins and look at the wear.
@MFeld said:
That depends on the individual coin. AU coins display wear/rub/friction as discoloration, too. Your various posts >give the impression that you’re concerned about not being able to tell the difference. If so and you’re not confident >that the grading companies can either, just avoid the coins.
Oh no, I am sure the experts know what they are doing....it's ME I'm not sure about, Mark ! Seriously, just trying to understand the basics so I have a working knowledge where I can maybe be right 80-90% of the time, if not 99.9% of the time or whatever the experts bat.
The discoloration is easy to see from the pics above. I'm just wondering what all of YOU are seeing that I am not that leads you (and the graders) to intuitively know it's NOT wear/rub discoloration.
Clearly, the certifications on the holder tell you that it's not rub (obviously, no coin is going to be 67+CAC if it had AU-type rub/wear).
If you are looking for wear, look for wear and stop obsessing over discoloration or some other secondary indicator. You can have wear and no discoloration. They are NOT the same thing.
I suggest looking at AU58 coins and look at the wear.
I suggest looking at AU55 and even AU53 examples, too.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
@MFeld said:
That depends on the individual coin. AU coins display wear/rub/friction as discoloration, too. Your various posts >give the impression that you’re concerned about not being able to tell the difference. If so and you’re not confident >that the grading companies can either, just avoid the coins.
Oh no, I am sure the experts know what they are doing....it's ME I'm not sure about, Mark ! Seriously, just trying to understand the basics so I have a working knowledge where I can maybe be right 80-90% of the time, if not 99.9% of the time or whatever the experts bat.
The discoloration is easy to see from the pics above. I'm just wondering what all of YOU are seeing that I am not that leads you (and the graders) to intuitively know it's NOT wear/rub discoloration.
Clearly, the certifications on the holder tell you that it's not rub (obviously, no coin is going to be 67+CAC if it had AU-type rub/wear).
If you are looking for wear, look for wear and stop obsessing over discoloration or some other secondary indicator. You can have wear and no discoloration. They are NOT the same thing.
I suggest looking at AU58 coins and look at the wear.
I suggest looking at AU55 and even AU53 examples, too.
Agree. I went with 58 just because it will likely be subtle.
I think looking at 67 CAC coins and trying to find wear is the worst way. Lol.
If anybody wants, the GC "TrueViews" or whatever their in-house pics are called.....are really good. I guess some of you mentioned they snagged the HA photographer.
Nice resolution, easy to zoom-in from the actual link:
@GoldFinger1969 said:
If anybody wants, the GC "TrueViews" or whatever their in-house pics are called.....are really good. I guess some of you mentioned they snagged the HA photographer.
Nice resolution, easy to zoom-in from the actual link:
John Albanese did a really good interview with CoinWeek back in late-2022 where he talked about CACG, CAC, and his many years of grading coins. I thought it was a great article.
Maybe it was discussed in other threads, but I thought it was very informative and explained alot of how John sees things. It talks about how "market grading" was inevitable and really not anybody's fault (or so it comes across) given the realities of the market place. Anyway, I link to it below for anybody who missed it 15 months ago.
Comments
CAC stickering in New Jersey will not accept any modern coins for stickering, including your 2021 Modern Morgan and Peace Dollars.
Steve
My collecting “Pride & Joy” is my PCGS Registry Dansco 7070 Set:
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/design-type-sets/complete-dansco-7070-modified-type-set-1796-date/publishedset/213996
I find it amazing how many finite details or rules of engagement if you will, there are to determine if a coin is simply good enough for ones collection. A lot has changed since I arrived in 2018. Frankly, its kind of a pain in the rear end just to keep up with all of the hoopla. Quick question (and Yes it is) before CACG happened and back when it was just the sticker chase, what percentage of NGC coins stickered vs PCGS?
I am curious what percentage of the roughly 1.2 million PCGS certified St. Gaudens, or roughly 3.8 million PCGS certified Morgan dollars have made their way through CAC. Do those of you that only buy CAC feel you could be missing out on some good coins, or that it is not worth the risk buying one without a sticker?
I answered more deep, but was lost. So I do more short. As example the Saints. Different years, different colors of the gold. I can restore and clean any gold coin of 850 and more with no problem at the original color without loose any characteristics of the fresh struck. In my collection I have light yellow, yellow, yellow-redish and almost red Saints. The SDX-DSX tests show that colors are direct proportional with the elements of the alloy. (Different years, different proveniance of the gold)
Now this it is my questions?:
Who at the CAC or CACG has backround in molecular chemistry or metalurgy? No One.
PS: The gold it is an unique mineral on the earth and no know element could interfere without drastic interference.
NEVER ARGUE WITH AN IDIOT.
FIRST THEY WILL DRAG YOU DOWN TO THEIR LEVEL.
THEN, THEY WILL BEAT YOU WITH EXPERIENCE.
MARK TWAIN
In the 1970s there was a television commercial for Alka-Seltzer where one guy is giving some other guy some scary-looking food and says, “Try it, you'll like it.” That became the catchphrase for an entire generation and it meant not to pass judgment on something until you have experienced it
It's true that most coins have not been submitted to CAC; but, many for sale have been, especially those over $200/$300.
Because I had limited access to viewing coins in hand and auction houses have a no returns policy, I have asked in the past whether they automatically send coins to CAC. One interesting historical comment was that by not sending coins to CAC, bidders might pay more thinking the coin could upgrade to a CAC.
Seems mind boggling about how many been submitted but wonder how many existing CAC 1 Gone bad in the holder 2 of those are they grossly boverpriced? Tommy a Rare Coin Investment Consultant in Cali has about 500 slabbed $20 Saints and $20 Libs. This is very easily a show case stacked 6 deep. He cherry picks them for quality saying “the new breed of investors are looking for lustrous pieces with great luster, no problems. Pieces with spots, bad tarnish are avoided.” He has a few CAC but as he operates on a very narrow spread has to keep overhead costs under control. He says “CACG coins on fire as many want them.”
While CAC has that data, they do not release it, so there’s no way to know the answer.
However, with that said, I have some information that might be relevant (or maybe not), as it measures something else:
If you look at auctions that have filters, AS A GENERALIZATION, I’ve noticed over the years that of coins in their auctions that have CAC stickers, roughly 76% - 88% are graded by PCGS (and the remaining 12% - 24% are graded by NGC). I write this before I check current auctions.
Now I’m checking. In the current GC auctions listed at this moment ending over the next few weeks, using their filters I see there are 839 coins graded by PCGS and NGC with CAC stickers. PCGS CAC has 654 and NGC has 185. Those come out to 78% of the total PCGS and 22% of the total NGC.
With the two upcoming DLRC auctions combined, the numbers are 139 CAC coins graded by PCGS and 26 graded by NGC, for a total of 165 (but when you plug both in, for some reason it shows a total of 162 instead of 165, lol). So roughly 84% of those with a CAC sticker are graded by PCGS, and 16% by NGC.
The reason this does not answer your question is it’s possible a LOT more PCGS coins have been submitted for stickering than coins graded by NGC. We really don’t know.
Steve
My collecting “Pride & Joy” is my PCGS Registry Dansco 7070 Set:
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/design-type-sets/complete-dansco-7070-modified-type-set-1796-date/publishedset/213996
I’ll answer just for myself!
The first question doesn’t matter, as lower grade common date coins generally don’t get submitted as much as a percentage in that grade compared to the percentage of coins in a higher grade for those dates. As an example, I would speculate that 1880-S Morgan’s graded MS63 and lower have a much smaller percentage of those in that grade submitted, compared to the percentage of those graded MS67 and higher that get submitted. Why? Because the financial differential of those with and without stickers is larger in the higher grades. Financially, for many collectors, it may not make sense to submit coins in those lower grades.
Regarding your last questions, I’ve very recently addressed that for ME, either in this thread higher above, or in a related thread regarding this same question being asked about MS 66 Saints. Yes, as a collector who chooses to avoid coins without stickers, ABSOLUTELY I’m missing out on coins with nice eye appeal that in CAC’s opinion may indeed be solid for the grade, and have no “surface problems” in the opinion of CAC. However, most of the coins I buy are typically valued at about $1,000 - $8,000, and I choose to not take the risk that coins without stickers have not previously been submitted and failed to sticker. I prefer, for my collection, to have coins that in the opinion of CAC are solid for the grade and have problem-free surfaces. If I take the risk, submit the coin and it fails, either by being in CAC’s opinion not solid for the grade (and possibly overgraded), or has had surface treatments that the TPG’s find acceptable but CAC does not, I personally don’t want that coin in my collection. So I would then turn around and sell that coin, likely at a loss.
Steve
My collecting “Pride & Joy” is my PCGS Registry Dansco 7070 Set:
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/design-type-sets/complete-dansco-7070-modified-type-set-1796-date/publishedset/213996
More likely with Saints or higher-priced series (or coins), agreed.
A friend of mine is a DE collector and bought most of his coins in the 1980's and 1990's. Has never submitted a coin for CAC even though I am sure out of his 30-35 coins he has a few CAC-worthy coins. I don't think he has bought a DE since he got married and had kids in the late-1990's/early-2000's, that was pre-CAC.
DD and WineSteven....I agree with your posts.
JA and CAC are well-known for being tough on gold in general and Saints in particular. Very well-done analysis and you made your point.
Basically, the "low-hanging fruit" was picked, right ?
Most likely. I just try buy stuff right avoid the sticker process…Let somebody else pay that cost / assume that risk in mail.
Yes, but you do not answer my question: Who at CAC or CACG can certify the surface traitment? who there it is qualify for this statment?
I agree that it is an price mouvement for CAC or CACG. This it is just marketing and the market. But other thing it is the accuracy. Respond please: Where this accuracy it is now. What will be in the future it is other ball game. Answer me from the coins collector perspective and not money maker.
NEVER ARGUE WITH AN IDIOT.
FIRST THEY WILL DRAG YOU DOWN TO THEIR LEVEL.
THEN, THEY WILL BEAT YOU WITH EXPERIENCE.
MARK TWAIN
But what happens when it's time to sell?
Thanks Steven - roughly 85/15 is what I expected (talk about when it comes time to sell) but I was still curious if it was substantially lower.
On moderns I’m pretty sure I could get higher numbers over there but I just can’t bring myself to do it. Mostly because I’ve looked at too many auction results, their ms68 typically brings half and in a lot of cases our 7 brings more.
I know this is a touchy subject so I’m just trying to understand w/o hurting anyones precious lil feelings 😁
OK, I know it's tough to grade a coin from pics (even Hi-Res pics) compared to in-hand....but take a look at this currently offered high-grade Saint.
High Grade....Plus....CAC.
If not for the existing certifications....how would a beginner/intermediate grader like me or some of my friends look at this coin and NOT think that the discolorations on the high-points are wear/rub/friction ? Or might be, even if we're not sure.
Understood!
Separately, you do know that the CAC sticker is NOT saying the coin is solid as a 67+, but is only solid as a 67? CAC MAY think the coin merits the plus, or maybe not. We don’t know. Only CACG, in a crossover or grading from a raw coin, would indicate if a coin, in their opinion, merits a plus.
Steve
My collecting “Pride & Joy” is my PCGS Registry Dansco 7070 Set:
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/design-type-sets/complete-dansco-7070-modified-type-set-1796-date/publishedset/213996
This coin is sick! Even the rims have luster. I wouldn't get too caught up in the details here and instead look at the big picture. A couple of nicks is the only thing holding it back from an eight. They say you can't grade from pictures, I disagree.
However, grading that was too easy like watching poker on TV I can already see their hand. Easy to see The royal flush here, that queen is easily a 10 has the J. A. along with the king (PCGS).
Why?
Unless you luck out and score an MS70 on the D or O privy marks, you could sell the raw and buy graded and it would be close to a wash.
ANA 50 year/Life Member (now "Emeritus")
But what about the discolorations/blemishes on the high points: Liberty's left leg and the upper right thigh (the reverse looks clean) ?
"Discoloration" is not wear. Wear can result in discoloration. However, discoloration can Andi be toning or surface dirt.
Can I tell the difference from the pics above ? Or would I need to see the coin in-hand ?
I know in front of you is always better than pictures, but I'm going to see the same thing either way....SO....how can I tell if it's wear/rub (what we had that big back-and-forth on in another thread) or just toning or "surface dirt" ?
Is it just me or does the 67+ CAC Saint in this thread look puttied? @MFeld
@cameonut2011
Thats just how they tone, def not putty.
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True, but the knee also looks rather flat. It sure looks like friction. Not something I’d call an A or B coin. I’m also not a fan of what looks like PVC. From the True View:
.> @cameonut2011 said:
I don’t see any indication of putty.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I should have pulled the True Views first.
This is probably not all that meaningful. For a decade or more, folks have been told that the best coins end up in PCGS holders, and everyone has bought into the hype meaning PCGS holdered coins sell for more, so many cross their NGC holdered coins to PCGS holders. What would be a good measure is that coins originally graded by the 2 different TPG's (and never crossed) and how they do at CAC. But the problem is all the data is biased now bc of all of the crossing............
We're not really disagreeing. I was addressing the point being made regarding those looking to cross to CACG.
Steve
My collecting “Pride & Joy” is my PCGS Registry Dansco 7070 Set:
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/design-type-sets/complete-dansco-7070-modified-type-set-1796-date/publishedset/213996
So the darker blotches on the legs (high points) are toning or discoloration....and NOT wear/rub/friction.
Is there something that one can look for to tell the difference ?
The CAC sticker
That depends on the individual coin. AU coins display wear/rub/friction as discoloration, too. Your various posts give the impression that you’re concerned about not being able to tell the difference. If so and you’re not confident that the grading companies can either, just avoid the coins.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Oh no, I am sure the experts know what they are doing....it's ME I'm not sure about, Mark !
Seriously, just trying to understand the basics so I have a working knowledge where I can maybe be right 80-90% of the time, if not 99.9% of the time or whatever the experts bat.
The discoloration is easy to see from the pics above. I'm just wondering what all of YOU are seeing that I am not that leads you (and the graders) to intuitively know it's NOT wear/rub discoloration.
Clearly, the certifications on the holder tell you that it's not rub (obviously, no coin is going to be 67+CAC if it had AU-type rub/wear).
If you are looking for wear, look for wear and stop obsessing over discoloration or some other secondary indicator. You can have wear and no discoloration. They are NOT the same thing.
I suggest looking at AU58 coins and look at the wear.
I suggest looking at AU55 and even AU53 examples, too.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Agree. I went with 58 just because it will likely be subtle.
I think looking at 67 CAC coins and trying to find wear is the worst way. Lol.
Thanks Mark, JM.....will peruse some AU-50's coins to better familiarize myself.
Maybe ask the dealer if he has any coins without rub 😂 with a big smile on his face, let me show you to our CAC cabinet.
If anybody wants, the GC "TrueViews" or whatever their in-house pics are called.....are really good. I guess some of you mentioned they snagged the HA photographer.
Nice resolution, easy to zoom-in from the actual link:
https://www.greatcollections.com/Coin/1516969/1924-Saint-Gaudens-Gold-Double-Eagle-PCGS-MS-67-CAC-Green
They snagged the PCGS photographer
John Albanese did a really good interview with CoinWeek back in late-2022 where he talked about CACG, CAC, and his many years of grading coins. I thought it was a great article.
Maybe it was discussed in other threads, but I thought it was very informative and explained alot of how John sees things. It talks about how "market grading" was inevitable and really not anybody's fault (or so it comes across) given the realities of the market place. Anyway, I link to it below for anybody who missed it 15 months ago.
https://coinweek.com/a-cac-grading-service-coinweek-interview-with-john-albanese/