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What would be the estimated value on these 2 extremely rare Peru 1 reales 1751 & 1766?

Just curious? Or is it impossible to estimate since they would likely never sell?

Collecting interests: Mexico & Peru early milled 1 reales + 1796-1891 US dimes

Sports: NHL & NFL

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Comments

  • PillarDollarCollectorPillarDollarCollector Posts: 4,607 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Does anyone here on these boards own either one or even both by any chance?

    Collecting interests: Mexico & Peru early milled 1 reales + 1796-1891 US dimes

    Sports: NHL & NFL

    Thank you Lord for another beautiful day!!!

  • rsei0120rsei0120 Posts: 124 ✭✭

    What exactly are you looking for?

  • PillarDollarCollectorPillarDollarCollector Posts: 4,607 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @rsei0120 said:
    What exactly are you looking for?

    Just estimated values is all. Just out of pure curiosity. Add to my knowledge.

    Collecting interests: Mexico & Peru early milled 1 reales + 1796-1891 US dimes

    Sports: NHL & NFL

    Thank you Lord for another beautiful day!!!

  • SimonWSimonW Posts: 570 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 2, 2024 2:38PM

    I only know one one person that owns one of them.

    Trying to put a value on those dates is very hard. They don’t come up very often. You’re not going to find a reliable number. If a high grade example of either one showed up, it would go for some decent money (I’d do my best to get it.)

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  • SimonWSimonW Posts: 570 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 2, 2024 2:38PM

    Someone here owns one of them.

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  • PillarDollarCollectorPillarDollarCollector Posts: 4,607 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 2, 2024 2:38PM

    @SimonW said:
    I only know one one person that owns both. I also only know three people that own either one (myself included.)

    Trying to put a value on those dates is very hard. They don’t come up very often. You’re not going to find a reliable number. If a high grade example of either one showed up, it would go for some decent money (I’d do my best to get it.)

    So there are more than just 1 known then correct? Yonaka states they are rarity 4's. How many 1751's have do you know about and how many 1766's?

    Collecting interests: Mexico & Peru early milled 1 reales + 1796-1891 US dimes

    Sports: NHL & NFL

    Thank you Lord for another beautiful day!!!

  • WCCWCC Posts: 2,344 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 2, 2024 2:39PM

    The unique (to my knowledge) 1751 illustrated in Yonaka is holed but presumably still worth thousands.

    I own the 1766 1R in VG or so. I bought it as part of a group lot but estimate I paid about $300 for it. I intend to have it graded eventually, which I think it has a decent chance to avoid the dreaded "details" grade.

    The mintage on this coin is reported as 168200. Yonaka illustrates one, Sellschopp owned a holed one, and Patterson owned one or two. Mine seems to be better than the Yonaka plate coin.

    The coin is legitimately scarce, but it's potentially (maybe probably) proportionately noticeably more available than indicated by publicly known records.

    I believe these coins to be a lot scarcer than the closest comparable US series (Liberty Seated dimes) but the much lower market value and smaller collector base makes it a much more speculative to pay "strong money" to buy it, whatever the actual scarcity.

  • SimonWSimonW Posts: 570 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Sorry, I misspoke, corrected the original. I thought you said 1752

    They’re very rare, but more than one known of each. Yonaka’s estimates aren’t estimates, they’re the numbers he observed in his study. Take that to mean they’re rare comparative to other dates. If he saw (10) 1756 coins and (1) 1766, that means it’s likely that the 1766 is ten times more rare than the 1756. The numbers are certainly off, but the proportions are probably pretty close.

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  • PillarDollarCollectorPillarDollarCollector Posts: 4,607 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I appreciate the answers thanks guys!!!

    Collecting interests: Mexico & Peru early milled 1 reales + 1796-1891 US dimes

    Sports: NHL & NFL

    Thank you Lord for another beautiful day!!!

  • PillarDollarCollectorPillarDollarCollector Posts: 4,607 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 2, 2024 2:44PM

    @SimonW said:
    Sorry, I misspoke, corrected the original. I thought you said 1752

    They’re very rare, but more than one known of each. Yonaka’s estimates aren’t estimates, they’re the numbers he observed in his study. Take that to mean they’re rare comparative to other dates. If he saw (10) 1756 coins and (1) 1766, that means it’s likely that the 1766 is ten times more rare than the 1756. The numbers are certainly off, but the proportions are probably pretty close.

    That is a great way to understanding Yonaka's book. Thanks!!

    Collecting interests: Mexico & Peru early milled 1 reales + 1796-1891 US dimes

    Sports: NHL & NFL

    Thank you Lord for another beautiful day!!!

  • SimonWSimonW Posts: 570 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I think I know someone who owns a 1751, possibly. I know for sure who owns a 1766, I’ve seen pics.

    The 1766 1R Peru isn’t nearly as rare as the 1766 1/2 real…that one might have a single one known. Less than a handful almost for sure unless some hoard in Spain is discovered.

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  • SimonWSimonW Posts: 570 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 2, 2024 2:50PM

    I think the 1751 date is really a trial strike. Not more than a few were struck, so there may be only one or two in existence. I honestly don’t consider the date a part of the set…maybe I’m a bad person for thinking that. 😂

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  • PillarDollarCollectorPillarDollarCollector Posts: 4,607 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @SimonW said:
    I think the 1751 date is really a trial strike. Not more than a few were struck, so there may be only one or two in existence. I honestly don’t consider the date a part of the set…maybe I’ma bad person for thinking that. 😂

    Same as some see the milled Mexican 1732's with no assayer as possible trials I suppose.

    Collecting interests: Mexico & Peru early milled 1 reales + 1796-1891 US dimes

    Sports: NHL & NFL

    Thank you Lord for another beautiful day!!!

  • SimonWSimonW Posts: 570 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Also, I got dibs on @WCC 1766 coin if he ever decides to sell it! 😂

    It’s a nice one!

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  • WCCWCC Posts: 2,344 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @SimonW said:
    I think the 1751 date is really a trial strike. Not more than a few were struck, so there may be only one or two in existence. I honestly don’t consider the date a part of the set…maybe I’m a bad person for thinking that. 😂

    I don't consider it necessary for a "complete" set either and not trying to buy it. Same for the 1751 1/2R or if I could afford it, 1751 8R. I'm not interested in spending thousands for a unique coin (if it is unique) looking like that. I'd rather buy slightly more common coins in better quality for the same money or less.

  • PillarDollarCollectorPillarDollarCollector Posts: 4,607 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @SimonW said:
    Also, I got dibs on @WCC 1766 coin if he ever decides to sell it! 😂

    It’s a nice one!

    Hahaha!!! No problem.

    Collecting interests: Mexico & Peru early milled 1 reales + 1796-1891 US dimes

    Sports: NHL & NFL

    Thank you Lord for another beautiful day!!!

  • SimonWSimonW Posts: 570 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @WCC said:

    @SimonW said:
    I think the 1751 date is really a trial strike. Not more than a few were struck, so there may be only one or two in existence. I honestly don’t consider the date a part of the set…maybe I’m a bad person for thinking that. 😂

    I don't consider it necessary for a "complete" set either and not trying to buy it. Same for the 1751 1/2R or if I could afford it, 1751 8R. I'm not interested in spending thousands for a unique coin (if it is unique) looking like that. I'd rather buy slightly more common coins in better quality for the same money or less.

    Bingo!

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  • EddiEddi Posts: 439 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Emporium Hamburg sold in 2023 a lot containing 19 Lima 1-Reales including (per description) a 1766.

  • ELuisELuis Posts: 770 ✭✭✭✭

    Do not know if the 1766 date it is a rare one.

    In good condition:
    1/2 Real 1766 Lima JM. 700 €
    1 Real 1766 Lima JM. 1.400 €
    2 Reales 1766 Lima JM. 1.400 €
    4 Reales 1766 Lima JM. 1.700 €
    8 Reales 1766 Lima JM. 2.100 €

  • WCCWCC Posts: 2,344 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Eddi said:
    Emporium Hamburg sold in 2023 a lot containing 19 Lima 1-Reales including (per description) a 1766.

    Yes, that's where I bought it.

  • WCCWCC Posts: 2,344 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @ELuis said:
    Do not know if the 1766 date it is a rare one.

    In good condition:
    1/2 Real 1766 Lima JM. 700 €
    1 Real 1766 Lima JM. 1.400 €
    2 Reales 1766 Lima JM. 1.400 €
    4 Reales 1766 Lima JM. 1.700 €
    8 Reales 1766 Lima JM. 2.100 €

    Those prices aren't accurate.

    I don't know actual market value, but the order (highest to lowest) is probably the exact opposite of this source, except maybe in a better MS grade if these coins exist in this quality.

  • SimonWSimonW Posts: 570 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Wow! I certainly didn't see that sale. 😭

    Glad WCC ended up with the lot.

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  • PillarDollarCollectorPillarDollarCollector Posts: 4,607 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Any idea how many 1751's were minted?

    Collecting interests: Mexico & Peru early milled 1 reales + 1796-1891 US dimes

    Sports: NHL & NFL

    Thank you Lord for another beautiful day!!!

  • SimonWSimonW Posts: 570 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 6, 2024 4:58PM

    @PillarDollarCollector said:
    Any idea how many 1751's were minted?

    714 reales worth. No breakdown by denomination. At least one was likely made of each denomination and sent to the Santiago mint. The 2 and 4 have never been seen in modern times as far as we know. I would wager that a handful of each were made, specifically as trial strikes, with none known that were saved for historic or collecting intention. Most of the survivors of that year are pure garbage, meaning they were released into circulation and are gone through attrition or crucibles.

    I hold out hope that a few old Spanish collections have a small number tucked away.

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  • WCCWCC Posts: 2,344 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @SimonW said:

    @PillarDollarCollector said:
    Any idea how many 1751's were minted?

    714 reales worth. No breakdown by denomination. At least one was likely made of each denomination and sent to the Santiago mint. The 2 and 4 have never been seen in modern times as far as we know. I would wager that a handful of each were made, specifically as trial strikes, with none known that were saved for historic or collecting intention. Most of the survivors of that year are pure garbage, meaning they were released into circulation and are gone through attrition or crucibles.

    I hold out hope that a few old Spanish collections have a small number tucked away.

    There is at least one really nice 1751 8R pictured in Gilboy, one of now 3 known. Purportedly sold in Singapore in 1988 or 1998 (have to look it up).

    Your description is the norm and distinguishes Latin coinage from US and European. Low and not so low mintage coins with apparently few survivors, especially in decent or "high" quality. This is an outlier with early US federal coinage.

    Another Peru example is the 1752 4R. Recorded mintage of 81 with one purportedly known (per Yonaka). Last I checked, Krause lists in in multiple grades.

    Still trying to find one for the $750 or $1000 it's supposedly worth. :)

  • SimonWSimonW Posts: 570 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Seriously, where does Krause get the prices?! Extrapolate? I guarantee they never saw a single one, let alone get sale information for any of them, let alone multiples…

    I do love it when people price great coins that I can buy according to Krause however…so it’s a double edged sword.

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  • ELuisELuis Posts: 770 ✭✭✭✭

    About what I posted on those prices, I tried to post but got a message that needed to have an approval, before can show up, tried two times, and simple end up deleting the draft.

    I use a site in Spain that i found some year or two ago, they have a catalog only for Spanish coins in Spanish. I have done several comparisons and the prices are way closer to the coin that it is for sale on a site that I looking for a coin to buy.

    At least for me to get an idea.

    The prices on NGC I do not see a change, do not know if numismater is avail directly to look for a coin value, I have seen a Greysheet but also no idea if that it is also for checking coin values.

    One can view some coin values on the PCGS, but not all coins show that data.

    I look at auctions and have seen that once it is sold it goes or show up on a green dialog with the sold price plus a 50%, so I use that value to do my comparison.

  • SimonWSimonW Posts: 570 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @ELuis what site? They list prices for Peru pillars?

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  • ELuisELuis Posts: 770 ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 9, 2024 1:16PM

    @SimonW said:
    @ELuis what site? They list prices for Peru pillars?

    Yes.

  • PillarDollarCollectorPillarDollarCollector Posts: 4,607 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 10, 2024 11:08AM

    Why are the survival rates so low in many cases they produced 50 000 coins or more in a single year of just 1 reales. The 1766 they produced over 100 000. Were they mostly melted?

    Based on Yonaka's estimate that means about 99.99% of each year no longer exist today.

    Collecting interests: Mexico & Peru early milled 1 reales + 1796-1891 US dimes

    Sports: NHL & NFL

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  • SimonWSimonW Posts: 570 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Well, that’s an interesting question. Lots of factors involved, here are my thoughts:

    1. As far as I understand, most of the time the Spanish colonies had a deficit of small coinage. Because of this, they got used for much longer than they would have under “normal” circumstances.

    2. The minors circulated, most of the time, within the Spanish colonies. The eight reales went all over the world. The baby pillars circulated among the “common populace” mostly, and the populace was pretty poor. They got mangled with regularity, mostly with holes, so they could be put on a string and carried around or stitched in clothing without fear of losing it (any silver back then constituted a decent amount of money, nobody would want to lose one.) From what I understand pockets weren’t really a thing.

    This being the case, mangled coins got melted.

    1. Silver value went up over the years, this would make it so the coins they minted would have less silver to make the same value (like an 8 reales)…which means the old coins were worth more because they had more silver in them. Whenever the silver content changed, melting ensued en mass. You could make more money on your money!

    2. Poor people don’t collect coins…which was most of the people using the coinage.

    3. In the beginning the rich people (Spanish) weren’t really interested in collecting coins from a backwater colony…I think that changed, but not many were preserved before the change.

    4. No government or numismatic entity cared much about preserving them…even today, they don’t have great collections like the Smithsonian.

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  • WCCWCC Posts: 2,344 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @SimonW said:
    @ELuis what site? They list prices for Peru pillars?

    It's not possible to "price" coins for which there is no recorded sale or baseline (e.g., sale of another similar date in the same series). That's the reality for the coins we are talking about in this thread.

    It's possible in some instances the publisher has a source for a private sale, but I doubt it is often. Even if there is one or a few, it almost never reflects current market conditions.

    The vast majority of catalog values for world coinage are just "made up". That's what is evident with Krause. No different for my South African catalogs. More sales for SA but too many which haven't sold in specific date/grade combination, and it's not listed by TPG (MS) grade which is what matters most.

  • WCCWCC Posts: 2,344 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @SimonW said:
    Well, that’s an interesting question. Lots of factors involved, here are my thoughts:

    1. As far as I understand, most of the time the Spanish colonies had a deficit of small coinage. Because of this, they got used for much longer than they would have under “normal” circumstances.

    2. The minors circulated, most of the time, within the Spanish colonies. The eight reales went all over the world. The baby pillars circulated among the “common populace” mostly, and the populace was pretty poor. They got mangled with regularity, mostly with holes, so they could be put on a string and carried around or stitched in clothing without fear of losing it (any silver back then constituted a decent amount of money, nobody would want to lose one.) From what I understand pockets weren’t really a thing.

    This being the case, mangled coins got melted.

    1. Silver value went up over the years, this would make it so the coins they minted would have less silver to make the same value (like an 8 reales)…which means the old coins were worth more because they had more silver in them. Whenever the silver content changed, melting ensued en mass. You could make more money on your money!

    2. Poor people don’t collect coins…which was most of the people using the coinage.

    3. In the beginning the rich people (Spanish) weren’t really interested in collecting coins from a backwater colony…I think that changed, but not many were preserved before the change.

    4. No government or numismatic entity cared much about preserving them…even today, they don’t have great collections like the Smithsonian.

    Similar to what I have written before, except that it's mostly not due to a lack of affluence. There were certainly enough locals who could have saved enough of this coinage (in better quality) if they wanted to do so but they didn't.

    Geographic isolation with a local culture mostly composed of a population who never struck their own coinage previously and had no interest in collecting.

  • ELuisELuis Posts: 770 ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 12, 2024 11:12AM

    @WCC said:

    @SimonW said:
    @ELuis what site? They list prices for Peru pillars?

    It's not possible to "price" coins for which there is no recorded sale or baseline (e.g., sale of another similar date in the same series). That's the reality for the coins we are talking about in this thread.

    It's possible in some instances the publisher has a source for a private sale, but I doubt it is often. Even if there is one or a few, it almost never reflects current market conditions.

    The vast majority of catalog values for world coinage are just "made up". That's what is evident with Krause. No different for my South African catalogs. More sales for SA but too many which haven't sold in specific date/grade combination, and it's not listed by TPG (MS) grade which is what matters most.

    I agree, I posted the prices on my first post here, because those values were avail, on the catalog I used for reference, for example on this 1/2R Lima in VG condition - This is a BC in Spain at 85€:

    The price to compare in EBC that it is XF or EF grade, they have:

    For the value about the 1751, I agree that it will be not easy to come up with a value.

    Maybe if one day end up on an auction, how they will come up with the value to start, since there would be nothing to compare to.

  • WCCWCC Posts: 2,344 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @ELuis said:

    @WCC said:

    @SimonW said:
    @ELuis what site? They list prices for Peru pillars?

    It's not possible to "price" coins for which there is no recorded sale or baseline (e.g., sale of another similar date in the same series). That's the reality for the coins we are talking about in this thread.

    It's possible in some instances the publisher has a source for a private sale, but I doubt it is often. Even if there is one or a few, it almost never reflects current market conditions.

    The vast majority of catalog values for world coinage are just "made up". That's what is evident with Krause. No different for my South African catalogs. More sales for SA but too many which haven't sold in specific date/grade combination, and it's not listed by TPG (MS) grade which is what matters most.

    I agree, I posted the prices on my first post here, because those values were avail, on the catalog I used for reference, for example on this 1/2R Lima in VG condition - This is a BC in Spain at 85€:

    The price to compare in EBC that it is XF or EF grade, they have:

    For the value about the 1751, I agree that it will be not easy to come up with a value.

    Maybe if one day end up on an auction, how they will come up with the value to start, since there would be nothing to compare to.

    That's a nice 1762. It's a very scarce coin. I'm quite confident it would sell for more than 250 Euro in EBC but in my experience, EBC by Spanish grading standards is nicer than an XF as defined in the US.

    If anyone has an EBC they want to sell me for 250 Euro, I'll definitely buy it.

  • PillarDollarCollectorPillarDollarCollector Posts: 4,607 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 12, 2024 12:09PM

    @ELuis said:

    @WCC said:

    @SimonW said:
    @ELuis what site? They list prices for Peru pillars?

    It's not possible to "price" coins for which there is no recorded sale or baseline (e.g., sale of another similar date in the same series). That's the reality for the coins we are talking about in this thread.

    It's possible in some instances the publisher has a source for a private sale, but I doubt it is often. Even if there is one or a few, it almost never reflects current market conditions.

    The vast majority of catalog values for world coinage are just "made up". That's what is evident with Krause. No different for my South African catalogs. More sales for SA but too many which haven't sold in specific date/grade combination, and it's not listed by TPG (MS) grade which is what matters most.

    I agree, I posted the prices on my first post here, because those values were avail, on the catalog I used for reference, for example on this 1/2R Lima in VG condition - This is a BC in Spain at 85€:

    The price to compare in EBC that it is XF or EF grade, they have:

    For the value about the 1751, I agree that it will be not easy to come up with a value.

    Maybe if one day end up on an auction, how they will come up with the value to start, since there would be nothing to compare to.

    An acetone bath would most likely remove those green areas on your coin. I would do that if it was my coin. Simply to prevent further damage if it is PVC.

    Collecting interests: Mexico & Peru early milled 1 reales + 1796-1891 US dimes

    Sports: NHL & NFL

    Thank you Lord for another beautiful day!!!

  • SimonWSimonW Posts: 570 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 12, 2024 1:50PM

    @WCC yeah, I get most of my "knowledge" from you, Jara and Yonaka, I'm pretty much just a parrot. 😂

    Certainly there isn't an accurate price guide, I was just suprised that there was one at all!

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  • ELuisELuis Posts: 770 ✭✭✭✭

    About the reales values, my first coin of 1R Mexico, spent $25, sent it to be graded to Anacs also first time to do this, came up as AU55 if I recall, sold it for $250 to a friend. This about 6 or 7 years ago.

  • WCCWCC Posts: 2,344 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 12, 2024 6:09PM

    @SimonW said:
    @WCC yeah, I get most of my "knowledge" from you, Jara and Yonaka, I'm pretty much just a parrot. 😂

    Certainly there isn't an accurate price guide, I was just suprised that there was one at all!

    I believe Aureo & Calico has one available on their website for free, electronic version. I have it on my hard drive, somewhere.

    I'm watching the Stacks Ortiz sale now. I collect the Lion & Castle 1/4R design as a secondary collection. At some point after the sale is over, I'll compare the coins on my watch list (all scarcer dates) to the catalog list.

    The 1822G (holed, low grade) sold for $6500, $7800 with BP. I'll admit it's a coin I didn't even know existed, but I doubt it's rarer than the Santiago pillar G-6 which Aureo & Calico sold for somewhat more than $5000. If it is, I still don't consider it more desirable.

    This is an outlier, but I doubt the catalog will have much similarity to the auction results. It appears to be a sale providing price discovery, similar to the Spinks Remick sale of South Africa Union in 2006.

  • scubafuelscubafuel Posts: 1,716 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Pricing is interesting on these impossible to find silver minors. I think the best way to do it is to take your max bid on any given auction for one and call that the floor. Because all it would take it one new entrant to the market and those would be the minimum prices.

  • ELuisELuis Posts: 770 ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 13, 2024 12:19PM

    @WCC said:

    rarer than the Santiago pillar G-6 which Aureo & Calico...

    Is the above this one?

    About this 1/2R, six examples of this exceptional piece are known (according to Jara and Luedeking); of which three have a hole and a fourth is preserved with an attempted drilling. That it is the coin on the holder

    I one check the images at NGC, you get this one:

    Guess that it was re holder.

  • WCCWCC Posts: 2,344 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 13, 2024 1:18PM

    @ELuis said:

    @WCC said:

    rarer than the Santiago pillar G-6 which Aureo & Calico...

    Is the above this one?

    About this 1/2R, six examples of this exceptional piece are known (according to Jara and Luedeking); of which three have a hole and a fourth is preserved with an attempted drilling. That it is the coin on the holder

    I one check the images at NGC, you get this one:

    Guess that it was re holder.

    Yes, that's the one. Bought by a forum member. I thought about buying it too. It didn't sell in the live bidding.

  • SimonWSimonW Posts: 570 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I considered it as well, very rare...maybe comes up every thirty years 😂

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  • ELuisELuis Posts: 770 ✭✭✭✭

    @WCC said:
    Yes, that's the one. Bought by a forum member. I thought about buying it too. It didn't sell in the live bidding.

    Thanks.

  • ELuisELuis Posts: 770 ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 13, 2024 3:00PM

    @SimonW said:
    I considered it as well, very rare...maybe comes up every thirty years 😂

    It was sold at this date:

    Then a few years I think it was sold now graded by NGC, on March 16th, but cannot find the year - edit found it: 16 03 2023 08:00 CET:

    Wonder where the other 5 coins are... and if ever end up avail for sale in the future

  • SimonWSimonW Posts: 570 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Ok, so THAT coin sells every few years😂, I haven't seen other ones myself though.

    I'm BACK!!! Used to be Billet7 on the old forum.

  • EddiEddi Posts: 439 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 16, 2024 2:14AM

    And it will NOT be back in the market for at least another 30 years ( after that, talk to my wife...)

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